Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

PokeThoughts By Dave II: So You Say You Play for Fun

2 Quick Questions

2 Quick Questions:

Are you saying that if a player and their deck cannot defeat those that "play for fun" they should be able to receive the prize for winning? To me it would seem more logical if the winner was able to beat all opponents, not just those 4-7 decks that are archetype.

And if your deck is able to beat all opponents, shouldn't you welcome those players that "play for fun" as easy wins? Afterall, your article was about playing to win, not playing fun competitive matches...

Oh, and when I get the time I'll counter-reply to my last post with more "emotional non-logical" rubbish that my last post included. College tends to take away that free time that I once had.
 
Dave, I think you are going even farther than you claim.

You appear to be saying not only that it is OK to have a desire to win...

But for those without a desire to win the entire event should not even play!

Heck, given your tone initially, there are VERY FEW people from Chicago who should even be let in any event...um...Ness, Chuck, Jimmy, his kids, Jessica, the Vernolas, Quinn and his brother, Moss, Pooka, Chen...and...am I missing anyone else up there who won a trip or who has done well in big events?

You have to be careful about elitism....the one left out may be....

This game does not need a "select" tour in my opinion. Anything along that line would be addition by subtraction. The best players already win the events....

M45
 
Meganium45 said:
am I missing anyone else up there who won a trip or who has done well in big events?

Actually, you are missing quite a few of us. Kevin, Ashley, Devin, Matt, Eric, Jeff, and me just to name a few. At least Chicago area... you did list Pooka, and he's in Wisconsin like a lot of us I listed.

Everyone should be let in. There should be no "pro tour". Everything right now is fine. Why are people complaining anyways? I liked Dave's original article, but now everyone is blowing this all out of proportion. GIVE. IT. UP. EVERYONE.
 
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What's the name of that British ski jumper from the Olympics?
Or the Jamacian Bobsled team?
 
Good article it was a good read. I'd just like to say a few things to this current debate. I don't believe dld4a
is being an elitist here. I don't know how this persons record is in tournaments and such but I don't see an elitist attitude. Some words are being put into his/her mouth I think, but lets move on....
I've always gone to tournaments with the aspect play to win have win or lose learn from the experience. I don't have a problem with I guess some people call newbs or scrubs playing the game in major events, I am somewhat worried that some don't play to enitially win, I believe it should always be a goal to be the best you can be. People have there own aspects on life though I'm not one to give judgement on what's the right outlook to have.
I think though for the most part the little guys with the random decks are great to have in any tournament. In my opinion it keeps the big heads from getting to much of a big head after losing, keeps the top players humble I think.

Well thats it from me. I think this was a good article and this is turning out to be a good debate.
 
Well, I am in the unfortunate position of being a parent whose son loves the game but we dont have the budget to play the many archtype decks that others have no problem purchasing card by card. We pretty much have to play what we pull.

Indeed the prizeless prereleases have pretty much ensured that we cannot really play this game competitely anymore. Before we could put a scrub deck together, from what we could win at the prereleases, relying on good skills to carry us. That becomes more and more difficult in this game.

I am a parent who has to constantly encourage his son to play for fun because we cannot get the cards to build a guaranteed competitive deck. With the lack of leagues to play and train and trade at, combined with the cost of gas and cost of travelling, we have to want to have fun sometimes. When we do do well, it is because we happened to come up with something that momentarily did well against the metagame.

Some of you perhaps cannot understand not being able to build any deck you want. Yet there are kids who want to play and have a decent deck even though they don't have the best cards to chose from to include their decks. Having 4 Celio's Networks, or 4 Steven's Advice or any other near staple card is not a given for some who still love the game.

So perhaps you can allow one kid, whose mother sacrifices greatly to get him as many cards as she can fit into the family budget, a chance to enjoy playing when he doesnt usually have a ghost of a chance because his cards are pathetically inferior to the well-healed decks of other players.

And the good Lord willing, we will be able to construct that one deck that works for that one qualifying tournament, and he will get another invite to the Worlds, which he earned this year with skill and not with a great endowment of cards.

I am incredibly proud that my son has fun even when he, we, his deck and his hopes are struggling. It really is a game, and there really are some of us who have to play for fun somtimes, and are not dishonorable as you suggest.
 
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There is not the first thing elitist about anything that I have said here!! I am just saying that the premier events should be about having a desire to win them, otherwise what distinguishes them from any other event. If you do not have a desire to win the "higher" level events, then why are you playing in them instead of a different event that doesn’t have so much at stake!
 
Nice article Dave!

just a couple of points, whats the point in winning if you don't have fun. The players who play for fun are whats good about the TCG. Can you imagin a world where we're all inward and don't share opions and have a laugh. Thats what pokegym is all about!

and what do you do if you have a desire to win, and are just plain bad. You go in building yourself up to win and you come home dissapointed.

A very good read though
 
i really love this game an i play this cause it is fun. an yeah, winning is not the only thing, but it sure beats losing. nothing wrong playing fun though
 
LadyFlash- It is obvious that your son has a desire to win and in my opinion, that is all that is required in order for him to be able to play in the higher levels of competitive play. This article is not about acquiring the "best" cards out there, but is about being confident that you have assembled, to the best of your ability, a deck that you feel confident that gives you a shot to win. What I am saying is a bad thing to do is to assemble a deck, and play it in a major, that you are only playing because you like to play it, when you know that it will not give you any shot to win, all for the sake of "having fun". Save this deck for "fun" tournaments! I put "having fun" in quotes because these type of people are just using "having fun" as an excuse. For what? A lot of things!

Kempley05- I never said that winning is the only way to have fun. In fact, I have said that fun should always happen, win or lose. I'm saying don't play in the majors without a desire to win, and that is pretty much all. If you "have a desire to win, and are just plain bad." you should walk away from the tournament (win or lose) secure in the knowledge that you did your best. If you can do that, you'll not be disappointed. Being disappointed with your performance has nothing to do with your desire to win and everything to do with your self-esteem.
 
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PokePop said:
What's the name of that British ski jumper from the Olympics?
Or the Jamacian Bobsled team?

Eddie 'the eagle' Edwards was the ski jumper from my country.

And the Bogsled team had a film about them called 'cool runings'. correct me if i'm wrong though
 
I have come up with a new example that should help me explain my position a little. I like it so much that I’ll be asking to have it edited into the original article.

Example:

Player A has access to any number of any cards he wishes and builds a deck that he will play in the 2006 US National championship. He says that winning is not as important as having fun so he has chosen a deck that he thinks will just be fun to play but is quite confident that it will not win the whole day.

Player B has limited access to cards because of her financial situation, but is quite adept at bargaining and manages to trade for enough cards and builds a deck that she believes gives her the best chance (well at least a very good chance) to win the 2006 US National Championship.

As it turns out though both decks are the same, card for card. It is my belief that player A should not play in the major tournaments. Why you ask, when his deck is the same, card for card, as player B’s deck? Well, player B has a desire to win, and player A does not. When I play a game against these players, I can promise you that on average the game against player B will be far more challenging because she is actually trying to win. Player A will not be concentrating on playing as well during the game and after losing will invariably say something to the effect of “Well, I’m just playing for fun.” or “I wasn’t really trying to win any way.” or “This is just a fun deck.” Nothing is more deflating to me as a player than to here this type of thing at the end of a game when I have just tried my best to win. I want to know that every one of my games was and is as challenging as possible. This will not be if my opponents are just playing for fun.

You can change the particulars about the players’ personal situation as much as you would like to in this example and it will not have any effect on my opinion about the situation in general. I chose those situations just to try to show that it does not matter what your situation is, it only maters what your desires are.
 
So this is all about YOU...how other players' alleged "desire" to "win" affects the attitude you have towards the matches YOU play?

If someone's not playing up to the 'standards' you've set for YOURSELF, if they don't want the same things you do, if they're not willing to do ANYTHING just within the rules to "win"...they don't 'deserve' to enjoy and participate in all levels of OP they can qualify for entrance to? A player whose priority is to ENJOY the experience of playing in an event is 'less worthy' to participate in OP than a player who will ONLY enjoy playing in that event if they WIN it?

How awful for you: you might actually have to play someone who's not what you consider to be a 'worthy' opponent...and you might even LOSE to them because of the luck of the draw.

But that's LIFE, and going to happen in ANY game with a wide variety of players; you can't legislate "desire to win" at the door. And asking people to self-select and exclude THEMSELVES from OP because they supposedly don't "want to win" as much as YOU do is selfish, IMO.

Would you rather be the player who ends up doing better than they expected to going into the tourney or the player who goes in with the attitude they're going to win and doesn't? Who do you think enjoyed the event more?

JMHO,
'mom
 
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At the last pre-release, I went to get some cards and test my skills. That was all good and fine; but you know what REALLY ticked me off? All those 9-year-olds who came to play for fun. They had no reason being there when I was there to WIN!! You know what's worse? I actually had to play one of them in the second round. The PTO should have KNOWN to set all the 'serious' players in one bracket, and all the 'fun' players in another.
 
SD PokéMom said:
So this is all about YOU...how other players' alleged "desire" to "win" affects the attitude you have towards the matches YOU play?

If someone's not playing up to the 'standards' you've set for YOURSELF, if they don't want the same things you do, if they're not willing to do ANYTHING just within the rules to "win"...they don't 'deserve' to enjoy and participate in all levels of OP they can qualify for entrance to? A player whose priority is to ENJOY the experience of playing in an event is 'less worthy' to participate in OP than a player who will ONLY enjoy playing in that event if they WIN it?

How awful for you: you might actually have to play someone who's not what you consider to be a 'worthy' opponent...and you might even LOSE to them because of the luck of the draw.

But that's LIFE, and going to happen in ANY game with a wide variety of players; you can't legislate "desire to win" at the door. And asking people to self-select and exclude THEMSELVES from OP because they supposedly don't "want to win" as much as YOU do is selfish, IMO.

Would you rather be the player who ends up doing better than they expected to going into the tourney or the player who goes in with the attitude they're going to win and doesn't? Who do you think enjoyed the event more?

JMHO,
'mom

All right that is enough! I am sick and tired of my statements and sentiments being misrepresented because someone is not understanding them properly! This is not about me any more than this just happens to be my article in my column and is obviously there fore MY OPINION! Anything anybody writes is there opinion and they have the right to express it. You can disagree with me, but do not vilify me for expressing my opinion! When I chose to use the words “Nothing is more deflating to me as a player than to here this type of thing at the end of a game when I have just tried my best to win. I want to know that every one of my games was and is as challenging as possible. This will not be if my opponents are just playing for fun.” , I meant them in the general “you” sense. Replace all of the “I” and “me” with “some players” and the sentiments will be exactly the same. Any intelligent person should be able to figure that out!

I would rather be, the player who did not sell himself short prior to the beginning of a tournament and came out knowing that I did my best no matter what the outcome of the event was, than the person in either of your examples. Entering into a tournament with only the desire to have fun is exactly the same as entering a tournament saying to yourself “I know I can’t win so I’ll just try to have fun.” This person is setting him/herself up for failure every time. All I’m saying is that players should try their best and that if you are entering into a tournament with the desire to only have fun, you are resigning yourself to not trying your best, and that is a shame!

Having the desire to win and being arrogant about it are two different things. You are assigning an attitude to me that I do not have. Any further attempts to do so shall be considered an unwarranted attack on my personal character and I will take even further offence to them.


F/S- Pre-releases don’t count with this because they are a different beast altogether. This also only applies to those players who are mature enough to understand the concept. Which will leave out most of those in the younger age divisions.

And for the last time (hopefully):

I never said don’t have fun!
I never said winning is the only way to have fun!

I have said several times now “Fun should just be a side effect of playing, an automatic if you will, win or lose, and NOT a goal!”

In other words fun should always happen!
 
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dld4a said:
I have said several times now “Fun should just be a side effect of playing, an automatic if you will, win or lose, and NOT a goal!”

Shouldn't it be "Winning should be a positive side effect of playing, as long as you have fun, and NOT the sole reason for playing the game!" instead?

I think that fits more with what Pokemon USA, Nintendo of America, and the Tournament Organizers are striving for, don't you?
 
DreamChaser AJ said:
Shouldn't it be "Winning should be a positive side effect of playing, as long as you have fun, and NOT the sole reason for playing the game!" instead?

I think that fits more with what Pokemon USA, Nintendo of America, and the Tournament Organizers are striving for, don't you?

Well you're getting close. At least you're thinking.

I do not mean to suggest that winning should be the only reason to play at all. In fact I don't think that winning should even be a reason to play, but one should try to win if he/she is to play in a premier competition.

You know what? That is the key word right there - "competition".

Why would someone partake in a competition without being willing to compete? A player cannot truly be competing if he/she does not have the desire to win.
 
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Please forgive the double post, but I think I have figured out the root cause for some of the previous misunderstandings. I think it may seem to some that I am calling for the “standards” set forth in this article to be mandated by POP. Though I can understand how statements such as
dld4a said:
I believe that POP would completely justified and correct if they set a standard of a certain level of commitment before being allowed to play in the higher levels of the major tournaments.
might lead you to believe that I think POP should set the standard. Let me assure everyone that I do not believe that there should be any official sanctioning rules committee for such a purpose. I still believe that POP would be justified in doing it, but I believe that it should be a self-policed type of thing as suggested by
dld4a said:
I am just saying that the premier events should be about having a desire to win them, otherwise what distinguishes them from any other event. If you do not have a desire to win the "higher" level events, then why are you playing in them instead of a different event that doesn’t have so much at stake!
and
dld4a said:
I do ask that you realize that competitiveness serves a much-needed purpose in this game.
and
dld4a said:
It is obvious that your son has a desire to win and in my opinion, that is all that is required in order for him to be able to play in the higher levels of competitive play.

I would also like to state at this time that my motives behind every single word that I have ever and will ever post on this site have been and will always be as pure as the driven snow! I have nothing but the best intentions for this game and the people who choose to be dedicated to it. I believe that there is something special about this game and that is why I have chosen it as the venue in which I try to have a positive influence on the community at large.

Thank you all again for reading and I apologize for anything I may have said to cause a misunderstanding.
 
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