Problems.... with problems... (ruling question)

Discussion in 'Professor Forum' started by Shdwchu, Apr 17, 2004.

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  1. Shdwchu

    Shdwchu New Member

    I came from The Illinios state championships today (and that is what this post is about). I need a ruling on this.

    Punishments:
    1. I played with a 60 card deck during the entire tournament. But when I got to top 8 they did deck checks. Now my Deck is STILL 60 but my deck list states Ihave 61 cards in the deck. ( My Punishment: a 1 Game out of 3 per round loss) Is that the way is should be... or should the deck list should have been removed of one card.

    2. NOw on the same note. During the same tournament, a player played with a 61 card deck during the entire tournament AND it was listed that he had 61 cards in his deck list. ( Punishment: EXACTLY THE SAME AS MINE) Isn't stated that each player MUST play witha 60 card deck at all times? Should he have not been DQ'ed for The illegal amount of cards in his deck?

    what would you other TO and PTO'S have done?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2004
  2. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Well, since you want TO and PTO input, I'll move this over to the Professor Forum where they can respond.
     
  3. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Since there's not POP Penalty Guidelines, all we have to go by are the old DCI Penalty Guidelines. Here's what they say:

    ...and

    so...

    if we go by these guidelines, a game loss was appropriate in both your examples.

    but...

    The penalty is applied to games AFTER the infraction was found, not for games before. So, when the infraction was found, the correction is made to fix the deck or deck list and the very next game (game #1 if the next multi-game match hasn't started) is a loss.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2004
  4. Mob2099

    Mob2099 New Member

    ???

    Ok, so your math was wrong on your decklist and your deck was Legal the whole tourney??

    #1 Why wasn't deck checks done before the tourney began?? You probably can't answer since you were a player, BUT this would have solved the whole issue that would have NEVER been an issue and the penalty wouldn't have been so harsh.

    #2 Game loss was a harsh penalty seeing the stakes were not as high as money or trips with the level of prizes at stake, States would be on a level Rel 1.


    Basically the TO & judges should have caught this and had it resolved way before top 8 (or whatever we are calling it now, since it's not always 8). Just imagine how many other decks may have issues.

    Sorry, but you got jacked!!
    How did you do with the game loss, just curious.
     
  5. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    Ummm, Mob2099 - it makes it hard for him to reply when he's not a professor!
     
  6. DaytonGymLeader

    DaytonGymLeader New Member

    I don't think that it was too harsh. It should be judged at a higher enforcement level regardless of what prizes are on the line because it is a POP Premier Event and has a Champion Title associated with it. Also, a two round Bye at Nationals is nothing to sneeze at either, considering the competition that will be there.

    This area of play suffers from the same thing as most other areas do. People would rather play than judge. I know for a fact that there are only a small handfull of people who regularly give their time to judging rather than playing. Now, as I wasn't there, I can't speak to this event specifically, but I am making a very educated SWAG. Knowing this, there probably wasn't time for the staff to perform pre-reg deck checks. As this was Match Play for the Top Cut, the penalty was more than appropriate.
     
  7. spookees

    spookees Active Member

    We do deck checks prior to the events (yes this takes longer but avoids most issues later on and worth the time)
    We also do random deck checks during the event and deck check top 8/winners.

    however, this was not done at ur event.

    IF we had run the event without the deck checks, i would agree with DaytonGymLeader assessment.

    This kind of situation just adds to the IMPORTANCE of doing these deck checks at all events (it also prepares the players for the bigger events as well). Yes, it takes alot of time but well worth it. :)
     
  8. TheDeuce

    TheDeuce New Member

    Just so you know, the "other person" that you're talking about did not have a 61 card deck, he did the same thing wrong that you did.

    You both had a legal 60 card deck. You listed an extra card, while he forgot to list a card, so you got the same penalty. While the penalty did seem a tad harsh, it is what the guidelines call for, and therefore was fair...
     
  9. old man

    old man New Member

    What guidelines? WotC/DCI maybe.

    IMHO until guidelines are posted by PUI there are really only 2 options here for the judges.
    1) Base your rulings off of the DCI guide. But can you really do that in a POP tournament?
    2) Use your judge's discretion to make the best ruling you can. But we all know how that opens the door for the judges & how unfair & unjust that could be. Using this one, the judge would have to use some common sense here.

    Somwthing I don't follow here. If all the games were best 2 out of 3, there should have been plenty of time for 1 person to at least look over the decklist & do a quick count, then if something is amiss, a deck check could be done asap.
     
  10. Master_Prof_Juggie

    Master_Prof_Juggie New Member

    Giday

    At ALL of our big tournaments, we do a decklist check minimum PRIOR to round 2. Thats the same way it works at our Premier Magic Tournaments, which i also assist with as a low level judge.

    I have 2 judges assigned during registration / round 1 to do that task. Rulings are NOT covered by them until they have completed the checks, which is actually very fast with 2 people (15 minutes to do 99 decklists, 7 problems). I cover any rulings during round 1, until they're ready.

    Any problems are sorted & penalties applied to round 2. Yes this also happens in Magic as high as Nationals.

    As for the penalties ... i agree with the Game Loss penalty in both cases, since shown to be the same problem (Illegal Decklist) Legal Deck.

    I agree with previous comments that these should've been picked up prior to the playoff stage of the event. It's not always possible to get all decks physically checked, since it's meant to be random, but I always deck check playoff decks.
     
  11. annisarich

    annisarich New Member

    We did checks prior to IN states.
    Corrected lotsa mistakes.
    Left open the chance to randomly check later
    Rechecked top "eights" before they started.

    BTW
    IIRC
    Wasnt it in the DCI floor rules :
    Magic had game and match penalties because there are always best out of __ in those tourneys.
    But in a one game match as in Pokemon a match penalty was very severe and a game penalty was not given in a single game match.

    Damn I just confused myself...

    Wish I still had that info
     
  12. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Sorry folks,

    There are NO right penalties at this point.

    There are NO guidelines for penalties.

    Anything any TO or PTO does must be considered right, because it is all at our discretion.

    DCI rules are gone, DCI penalties are gone. It is now just you, and I, and making the best of a situation.

    I am surprised there have not been more complaints, guess it shows the PTOs and the TOs are good at thinking on their feet and appearing fair.

    M45
     
  13. annisarich

    annisarich New Member

    Thats true Mag.

    Thats why we stated clearly before the tourney as a team of judges what the penalties would be for infractions.

    This way everyone knew what to expect that afternoon
     
  14. JohnnyBlaze

    JohnnyBlaze New Member

    There should be many factors in considering the infractions of an incorrect decklist. I for one feel that it shouldnt be that severe of a penalty especially since you have been playing with a 60 card deck throughout the course of the tourney. I mean its very easy to make a mistake when completing a decklist. Take for instance in the 10 and under filling out decklists there are plenty of mistakes. Reasonaby judges cannot check every single decklist prior to the tourney start. Again an extra card being listed shouldnt be that bad of a penalty.
     
  15. Master_Prof_Juggie

    Master_Prof_Juggie New Member

    Johnny Blaze

    I disagree with your comments about mistakes on Decklists.

    Decklists are just about ALWAYS prepared before the tournament (normally at home). Those players that have to do them on the day, should have no excuse if they make a mistake. After all, being prepared does have it's benefits.

    Apart from Limited events when they may be used on the day, i have no 2nd thoughts about handing out penalties for incorrect decklists. If players can't take the time to check their lists BEFORE handing them in, they pay the price of not being prepared.

    I consider spelling mistakes to be ok for the younger players, as long as it's obvious what it's meant to be.
     
  16. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I second your comments MP Juggie. I wish more players would fill out their decklists before arriving. Those who come unprepared stand the risk of filling it out incorrectly and suffering the consequenses.

    Nevertheless, I was a bit surprised when I read the DCI Penalty Guidelines and saw the penalty for an Illegal Decklist (even though the deck was legal). IMO, I think it's harsh given that playing with an Illegal Deck has the same penalty, a far greater penalty IMO. So, in this area I agree with JohnnyBlaze.
     
  17. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    My baseline question is: "Did this affect gameplay and if so, was it reversible?"

    Personally, I don't this error getting a yes in either category.
     

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