Random RPS

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by SteveP, Jun 2, 2008.

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  1. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    This came up at our Battle Roads last weekend and I ruled as follows:

    A couple players were using rock-paper-scissors cards instead of shooting with their hands. One player was randomly drawing one of the three cards without looking at it. After discussion with my fellow judges and the PTO, we ruled that the player MUST make a conscious decision which RPS card to play. He had to visually look at all three cards and make a choice which card to play.

    I looked at the Compendium and didn't find a ruling about this specific issue. Are there others out there using the RPS cards instead of shooting with your hands? If so, are the judges requiring you to make a conscious decision to pick the RPS card (as opposed to a random choice)?
     
  2. yugioh duelist

    yugioh duelist New Member

    both player do have to agree
     
  3. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I'd rule that both players CANNOT agree to do it randomly. For example, if both players were using RPS cards, they cannot agree to randomly draw their RPS cards. BOTH would need to look at their own 3 cards and choose which one to play.

    RPS cards were allowed for two reasons (correct me if I'm wrong):

    - prevent LugiasRealm-type injuries
    - eliminate the need to shoot simultaneously
     
  4. ShadowGuard

    ShadowGuard <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=

    In Germany, we are allowed to use RPS cards but we need have to consciously choose them.

    RPS cards are optional an players don't need to use them. If only one player has RPS cards, he places them face-down and the other player uses his hand to throw rock, paper or scissor after that.
     
  5. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Both players have to agree... to what?

    To use the cards? No, each player can do it how they want, by hand or by card. One player cannot make the other use or not use cards, and visa versa.

    To do it randomly? No player can do it randomly.
     
  6. Phazon Elite

    Phazon Elite New Member

    You can still trick the system and randomly select one while appearing to make a conscious decision. You just can't shuffle them around and choose one while they're still face down.
     
  7. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Well, that's just it.
    I'm not going to get inside a player's head and determine if they REALLY made a decision, but the players can't thumb their noses at the judge staff and POP rulings and expect nothing to happen.
     
  8. poke-dad

    poke-dad New Member

    I like using the cards. I played a wager at a recent battle road and my opponent refused to play rps unless we both used the same method. Since I couldn't provide him a set of rps cards he stated we had to play by hand. The head judge was called over and he agreed with my opponent. I was more amused than upset so I relented. I thought it was funny someone would put up that kind of fuss.
     
  9. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Mike, any chance of getting the RPS cards option into the Compendium?
     
  10. DarthPika

    DarthPika New Member

    If it where meant to be random it would just say a coin flip. Its not so you CAN NOT pick a random card.
     
  11. Phazon Elite

    Phazon Elite New Member

    You'd be surprised. I still get people who look dumbfounded when I yank out the RPS cards.

    "What's this? The Crystal Skull???!!!"
     
  12. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

  13. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Actually, I have a foolproof way of making a completly random decision in RPS. It ensures you have as much chance as winning as losing and removes all skill from RPS. There is nothing your opponent can do to change it into a game of skill - it is determinned purely and solely by luck. Using my method makes stopping randomisers futile, as either player who knows and uses the method has complete control of randomising the game.

    My method is simple.

    • Before the game, roll dice or shuffle/draw your RPS cards.
    • Record the results. These results are completly random as they were determinned by a dice roll!
    • Memorise these results in the exact order e.g. ROCK SCISSORS ROCK ROCK.
    • For every RPS game, use the signs in the order you memorised. Must be completly determinned by what you remembered in the exact order of the dice roll.
    • What difference is there between calling from a dice you threw beforehand and decided you would use the result of no matter what, to just rolling the dice? You have complete control of randomising the result.

    As long as you roll for new results before every game (between rounds) and memorise using exactly what came up, there's nothing anyone can do to stop you. You ARE deciding, yet your decision is completly random!

    Seriously, I'm not joking whatsoever I just broke the fundamental concept of RPS as a game of skill.

    Could I just add that on Saturday I won RPS 9 consecutive times. I do believe it to be a game of skill, but had my opponents been using my strategy above, there is no way I could have any influence on the result. I only won because my opponents were not using the method. It's not about what you do, it's about what your opponent does and any method such as mine where a sign is called with equal probability predicided or otherwise by either player makes it a game of luck. There is no getting around it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2008
  14. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Just don't let anyone see your notes; otherwise, you've just turned your "random" method into a completely "unrandom, you-lose" situation.

    Also, don't let your judges know what you're doing. If I found out you were doing this, I would penalize you.

    Also, I once saw a player roll a dice before he threw his RPS. Another no-no.

    Personally, I don't see this as some major penalty. However, it can and should be penalized, if the ruling is official.
     
  15. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    It's funny ... I read this thread and I'm reminded about just how much I hate RPS now. I actually used to like that game. Not anymore though. If Ihad wanted to do competitive RPS I would have joined a RPS league.

    As Magic_Umbreon points out there are plenty of ways to "game" the whole "must not be a random choice" thing. IMHO peanalizing folks who want to randomize is a loosing battle....
     
  16. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Ah, but it's still a free choice. As long as choice is not randomised, how can a judge know whether you chose properly or used "the method"? Questioning a player's free choice to RPS isn't allowed. My RPS choice is mine to use how I choose, as long as no randomiser is used at that point. What my choice is based on however is my business and no-one else's.

    I agree with you on the grounds it is not SotG, but how would you go about checking for or enforcing against "the method"? All a judge can and will ever see is my decision as a sign, not a reason. This is the great flaw and the reason the method works: no judge can derive your reasons for choosing a sign.

    BTW where I say "I" and such I'm just speaking theoretically. I am good at RPS and SotG, so no need or reason to use the method myself. However, that doesn't stop the method as a concept, it's still very real and destructive. Just one of many ways to entirely randomise and RPS and destroy any opponent's hope of using skill.

    For example, another way could be: I use the same amount of basic fighting, grass and metal. Therefore they have equal chance of being drawn before the others. If the first card I see (drawing at start and thereone one by one) is fighting, go rock, if its grass go paper and metal go scissors. Alas, only good for one non-tie RPS game but until you use it you always have a luck decision available.

    Even simpler, check your discard pile and use the first energy from the bottom. Just assign the signs to cards you play in equal quantity (and not a mix of basics and other cards) and whazam, use deck, discard whatever available immediately before RPS.

    A player always has a luck option available, no different to just doing high roll.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2008
  17. ShadowTogetic

    ShadowTogetic New Member

    I always refuse to use the cards. If my opponent wants to use the cards, fine, but that means I choose last
     
  18. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Magic_Umbreon - I hear you. Personally, I think RPS is highly random already. Some say there's skill involved, so they ruled that you can't randomly throw your choice.

    So, as a judge, I MUST enforce the "no randomness" rule. If you can find ways to make your random choices undetectable, fine. But, if your methods are uncovered, expect a penalty. That's all I'm saying here.

    And, I agree - RPS is not something I personally like as a player. I use the cards, and up until recently, I too randomly picked cards. Nevertheless, POP has made it clear that RPS is a game of skill, though some still disagree.
     
  19. edwarpy

    edwarpy New Member

    More simple. Spell the name of your Active Pokemon, looking real hard at each card, one card for
    each letter. The final letter is your pick. We have RPS in Pokemon, why not One Potata, Two Potata?

    Bonus: Play Wormadam Plant Cloak for added suspense. Be sure to decide before hand if the spaces
    get counted, wouldn't wanna have no last second random decisions!

    Tip: Don't mouth each letter as you spell.
     
  20. Grinning_Gengar

    Grinning_Gengar New Member

    RPS is about fun

    I don't understand why anyone would have a problem just playing a normal game of RPS.

    If you have a problem with rules then why are you playing a game with many rules, if you think you look childish playing RPS then you forget that your playing Pokémon and the essence is not adult but Fun, if you think it is too much work to lift you hand up and down 3 times then maybe this is the perfect time to start getting some exercise.

    Any way you look at it you should just grin and play RPS and enjoy the "strategy" and stop trying to rob the fun of this aspect of the game from other players. TGW is a refreshing change from endless dice rolling and coin flipping. Just have fun with it.
     

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