Rap is to...

Discussion in 'Random Topic Center' started by Moss Factor, Apr 19, 2004.

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  1. Moss Factor

    Moss Factor New Member

    SAT Vocabulary time! Here we go:

    "Rap" is to "good nowadays"
    "Michael Bolton" is to "Punk Rock"

    as you can clearly see, BOTH of them are false. Rap really stinks lately. I seriously am going to go crazy the next time I see Lil John/TI/Chingy/R.Kelly/Ying Yang Twins put out another hit. Whatever happened to the glory days of good rap? What do ya'll think? What do you think about rap these days/in general, and who do you think are good rappers?
  2. ultimate_healer

    ultimate_healer New Member

    i hate Chingy. He can't rap. I like the old early 90's rap. Now that was some good stuff.
  3. Ash's Pikachu

    Ash's Pikachu New Member

    Eminem=Crap.He raps so bad.............
  4. Monkey

    Monkey <a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p

    Two words (Or one idk):

    G UNIT!!!!


    I really don't like rap. But everyone in my school loves it, and whenever I go to parties thats all I hear. :/
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2004
  5. Moss Factor

    Moss Factor New Member

    Wow, I can't believe you said you don't like Eminem... I'll agree that Em has really sold out with his stuff lately (The Eminem Show and the new D12 CD primarily), however if you doubt his skill download (or just BUY, you pirates YARRR) his first and unreleased album "Infinite". It's some of the most amazing stuff ever. Not to mention you should reexamine the Slim Shady LP and the Marshal Mathers LP; the later may be the best rap album in terms of skill, ever. And I don't say that lightly.

    If anyone doubts the skill needed for rap, I suggest you check out some of these artists:

    Aesop Rock
    Swollen Members
    Jurassic 5
    Mos Def
    The Streets

    I defy you to state that this doesn't take far more skill than the majority of the rock (or any music for that matter) played on the radio these days. The only music genre that takes more skill than rap is jazz. Prove me wrong.
  6. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    The Art of Noise
    The Ramones

    Can't say i've ever heard any song by any of the groups you've mentioned, though Jurassic 5 does sound familiar, but there are always a few groups in any genre that break the limits of that genre.
  7. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Moss: Define 'skill'.
  8. Moss Factor

    Moss Factor New Member

    Skill would be the ammount of talent you need to perform at a high level. Jazz is obviously at the top because most people play for more than a decade before they get good at it, and the vast majority never get there. There are still people (Charlier Parker, John Coltrane, Dizzie Gilespie, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Louis Armstrong) that will never be topped. They were geniouses.

    I haven't heard of "The Art of Sound", but I know Radiohead and The Ramones. The Ramones were simply good because they pushed the limits and were on the forefront of a then new musical genre. However their music (and punk on a whole) is extremely basic. The chords are simple a few, and the lyrics are boring. Radiohead has more interesting chords and meaningful lyrics, but they still don't impress me with their sheer skill; they sound good and have a lot of emotion and things to say but it doesn't take a lot of SKILL to be able to make the music they make.

    The thing that sets jazz and rap apart from any other category of music is a single atribute: spontanious composition, otherwise known as improvosation. When you're taking a jazz solo, you don't write everything out, you simply have chords that the rythm section is playing and you just play over the top of it. Basically you're just making it up, and you have to use everything you know about theory and the chords to make it sound good and be creative and interesting at the same time. Playing a good solo is the hardest thing in the world to do-- yes, harder than hitting a baseball in the majors.

    Rap has it's own version of improv, more urbanly referred to as "Freestyling". The fact of the matter is coming up with a really good freestyle is rediculously difficult. When you're writing a rock song you can pour over it until it's perfect, change it all you want. With a rap freestyle you've got to be creative and interesting, and you have to make everything work instantly. A very small portion of the world can do this well. Just as jazz has a rythm section playing the chords behind them, rappers have a DJ playing the beat in the background. And in the same way that the jazz soloist interacts spontaniously with the other members of the group, a good DJ and emcee will be able to do some sweet stuff with the beats as well.

    When you listen to a rock song in a concert it sounds the same every time. Jazz is never the same live, and if the MCs are freestyling their raps never sound the same either. They come up with new and interesting stuff every night, and produce their craft instantly on stage. It takes more skill. Perhaps Radiohead is more creative, but not as skillful.

    It just hurts me how far MTV rap has strayed from the good rap in the 80s and early 90s. There are underground rappers who are putting out some amazing stuff, but they'll never get the same exposure as the sellouts who play club music and pop.
  9. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    OK, so it's like comedy improv. The skill to think on one's feet and have it be good.

    I can appreciate that, but it's not the only thing I'm looking for in my music. I will agree with you that the current pop scene is a desert of real talent.

    By the way, it's "Art of Noise", not "Art of Sound".
    And you probably have heard their work but weren't aware of it.

    My favorite artist that I think demonstrates amazing skill (demonstrated by an amazing variety of output) is Joe Jackson. I've seen him live three times and every show was like seeing a different performer. It's not the skill of sponteneity, though. Although I imagine he could do that as well.
  10. Moss Factor

    Moss Factor New Member

    It's just that when I listen to jazz or rap, I find myself going "hell yah!" when I hear a really good lick or couplet. I'm impressed by a song's creativeness in other forms of music, but they rarely have lines or licks that really stand out and get me excited. It's more like the song on a whole, or album on a whole. They're more designed to be singable or meant to invoke an emotion, rarely to impress others with the skill of the artists.

    The point is, there is really not much you can do these days to push the boudries of rock. However you can be consistantly original and exciting with improvosational music. And the more you listen to good improv, the more respect and appreciation you have for the craft. You begin to realize exactly how tough it is, and how much skill is needed to perform at a high level. Someone can pick up a guitar and be rocking out in a band in a few months. You could hone your skills for 10 years and still not be able to battle with Eminem or Blackalicious-- or play a solo on par with Kenny Garret or Michael Brecker. The difference between the good and bad is extremely large when dealing with improvosation.
  11. )v(ajin_ipg21

    )v(ajin_ipg21 New Member

    I try not to judge a performer from its albums BUT FROM their live shows. AND this is where rap groups have struggled (albums can be SO clean and studio-ized) tho I have heard its become better.

    I listen to all types, MY favs are 80's rap (grew up listening to it) BUT I get bored very easily with music. Rap got too pop and bravado... I guess rap has not changed much =/

    SO I enjoy social commentary rap and not party rap... tho it is very difficult to deny the catchiness of some of the songs on the radio.

    I disagree about the rock tho, I've ventured on to SPANISH rock but I love pure and unadelterated punk/ska bands... pure sounding bands... the lyrics can be amazing AND some of them have the skill and presence to put on some of the BEST live shows... (BTW MT jimmer has AMAZING taste in music =) )

    PS I am barely finding out the beauty in turntablism... this is what I grew up enjoying but never pursied listening to it... its all in the ear of the beholder and there is nothing like a turn table cutting and scratching... NOW that is a skill...

    BTW ever heard rap in foreign languages? SPanish does not impress me BUT french, aw man, it sounds so cool...
  12. Bigpoppabeatdown

    Bigpoppabeatdown New Member

    ok, let's not diss on chingy, i live in STL, so i gotta give him some props for rapping from the midwest, where the coasts have all the ears listening for talent.... he does need some work and his style is far different from most everybody else out there....

    i'm glad that rap has changed to a degree, i got really tired of some gangsta rap by rappers that didn't have talent, but i will always respect some of the old rappers: dre, snoop, 2pac, jay-z, vanilla ice :lol:, naughty by nature..... but the rest of them don't need to be rhymin.......

    and that entire ordeal with master p, is the reason that i stopped listening to rap for a while.......

    now there are some good rappers that just like to have fun with raps: petey pablo, big tymers, ludacris, d12, lil flip.....
    these guys have fun with rapping and there is no more of gang wars that infected the old raps (see 2pac's "hit em up")

    eminem definitely has some of the best rhymes i've ever heard, but i think he got tired of every group protesting him..... apparently they didn't bother to read the 1st amendment of our constitution.....

    but if u really wanna hear an example of skill....... listen to basically anything by twista........ now that takes some skill to spit like that while still making sense.......

    i like most genre's of music, with a few exceptions, and rap is basically the only one that seems to be improving imho....... rock especially has gone downhill with a few groups keeping it alive.......... it's really disappointing

    on side notes, i do think that it's funny with lil jon and r. kelly being in basically every song around and becoming the new jermaine dupri and p diddy...... that's why i love chappelle's show rendition of lil jon.."YEAH, OOO K, what? are heard in every song..... but it's better than the groups that are doing horrible renditions of older songs....... every group that has tried to redo "sweet home alabama" should never sing again for butchering a classic....... and now someone is redoing "take my breath away"??? why? can't they do their own songs??? arrrrggg

    and turntable scratching is awesome and hard so i have respect for them with one exception......... THE EXECUTIONERS are HORRIBLE..... i heard them live in a competition and i was like "what did i do wrong to deserve this?"
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2004
  13. SD PokeMom

    SD PokeMom Mod Supervisor Staff Member

    The problem with 'popular' music..of any genre...is that it's manufactured to appeal to the lowest common denominator; image is everything, not talent. So where does 'real' music get exposure, when radio is controlled by corporations that are all but in bed with the recording industry? How much classical, 'real' jazz (not 'smooth jazz' =/), world, theater, etc. music do you hear on the radio in your hometown? If your town is like San Diego, where there are at least _12_ stations all owned by Clear Channel...you don't, except for an hour or two in the late night hours.

    That was the great thing about file-sharing, to me: being exposed to music that was wonderful, but I had NO IDEA was out there, because there's no airplay on the tightly-playlisted corporate stations. And having been exposed to said music by friends saying 'listen to this, I think you'd like it', I went out and BOUGHT it..and there'd be a lot MORE I'd buy, if certain things I want were not out-of-print. So, catch-22: can't hear it on the radio since 'no one' buys it...but 'no one' buys it since they don't know it's there!

    Internet music labels...for example, my current favorite Magnatune, who let you listen before you buy...are the future of music, IMO. Internet 'portals' like iTunes are generally just another way to sell the music you've already heard on the radio or MTV. I agree that the interesting music...of any genre...just isn't going to be on the radio until it's watered-down for mass consumption. For example: Coldplay is just watered-down Radiohead...

    Last edited: Apr 21, 2004
  14. Bigpoppabeatdown

    Bigpoppabeatdown New Member

    'mom, that's one of the best parts about living in st. louis.... there are so many jazz clubs or people playing on the streets that have so much talent and aren't manufactured.... wow, it's great
  15. Moss Factor

    Moss Factor New Member

    Juan: When I'm talking about good rap, I'm not refering to the junk on the radio these days, I'm talking about GOOD rap. I like complex beats (bass is good, but you can only listen to so many songs based around destroying subs before you want a little more) fed by good DJs and producers coupled with some really hot emcees. If you're alienated by rap these days try downloading some songs by anyone on the list I made. It'll make your day. Oh-- and in Europe this past summer my friend bought some Dutch rap. It's HILARIOUS! We can't understand a word of it, but there are like thug words that don't have any dutch equivelant like "gangster" and others I can't post here. The thing is, like all the sudden you'll catch a word you recognize at random. It's fun to listen to.

    bigpoppa: If you like some of the old guys buy some stuff from underground rap labels. Anything from the Def Jux label is great. And if you think Twista can rap fast, take a listen to Blackalicious. This guy can rap faster than ANYONE I'VE EVER HEARD, and he puts words together that just make my jaw drop. As far as sheer rhymes go, he can pack more into a line than anyone else. I think Twista's stuff is watered down.. his raps are usually boring, and his speed is the only thing that makes them good. The thing is, when I hear people that can rap faster than him, and better while going faster at that, he loses his appeal. He's just as vanilla as the rest.

    Aesop Rock has really interesting lyrics and I promise you his style is completely unique-- you'll NEVER hear someone who sounds like he does. And as far as really exciting lyrics, sheer skill, I really like early Eminem. I'm not worried about a message, because so many people with "a message" are just sellouts (*cough* Creed). The thing I'm concerned with as far as Em is concerned is his raps are just so poppy right now. If you listen to his early stuff he sounds like a different rapper. But people on the radio can't handle raps like that. They need something you can sing to. They need a dance beat to play in the clubs.

    Mom: I agree.
  16. )v(ajin_ipg21

    )v(ajin_ipg21 New Member

    'alienated'? Prob not, excluded more likely =P

    I am bored with alt rock radio music (Kroq for socal peeps) >_< its all cookie cutter who else can we sign to fit the mold =/ *it has always been*

    I listen to a bit of everything... for when my boredom cycles...

    I listen to talk radio, i'd rather listen to my music collection or stay informed...
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2004
  17. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Old? No old is SugarHill Gang, Curtis Blow, Whoudini, Beastie Boys, Run-D.M.C., Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five.....
  18. Bigpoppabeatdown

    Bigpoppabeatdown New Member

    wow, lol....... those are some old rappers, lol!!!

    but the ones that i mentioned were the innovators of the new school of rap.....

    the groups listed above introduced rap into the music genre's but the styles now come more from my lists, with one exception, guess who? lol
  19. baby*j

    baby*j New Member

    I agree, rap is dead right now.

    All I've been buying lately are pop cds!

    The only person that's out now that is good is Kayne West. Only him. :eek:

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