Redshift at Nationals

Discussion in 'Deck Help and Strategy' started by Magic_Umbreon, Apr 28, 2008.

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  1. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Redshift: Speed Moltres
    for the HP-MD format


    Pokémon and their functions

    Moltres - Strengths include the strong 100 damage it can inflict and the synergy between its poké-power and attack. Play a Moltres down onto your bench and it can fuel up instantly on a coin flip. Best accomplished with three :fire: energy in the discard pile and a free retreater active. The action of playing a Moltres that charges up, becomes active and inflicts 100 damage in the same turn is called a Redshift.

    In my deck of the same name, I use an engine of other basic pokémon and mentor/roseanne's to keep Moltres charged and Redshifts possible.

    Rotom - Dual Trans is a very effective method of fuelling Moltres. Along with Moltres' poké-power for a Redshift, both need energy to be in the discard pile. This means anything used to put energy there will help both. A failed Redshift can be energised with dual trans. To support Moltres and Rotom, I use a pokémon to discard energy for Rotom to attach while still refreshing the hand:

    Lunatone - Lunatone can discard anything you need from your hand with its poké-power. With Solrock in play, you even get to draw in addition. This helps circulate the deck and draw into more useful cards. As long as you can tap into Garvity Change, you can drop energy as you need to.

    Solrock - Solrock, after playing ends up just as a tech to draw into useful things if you only start with one supporter. The extra card draw a turn is very useful for setting up, and is a way out of an otherwise fatal situation. Usually, not played to save bench space.

    Unown Q - Free retreat itself is excellent. Unown can be attached to Rotom, so you never need to waste energies on Rotom. It can also help Moltres in retreating. Generally, Unown Q is just a central part of the deck and with the SSUs you can effectively transfer it, or any other tools around as necessary. The energ(ies) you might need to retreat can instead be attached to an attacker. Runs smoothly and allows for more attacks faster.

    Holons Castform - Good old castform revolutionises your Mentor/Roseanne’s. Holon's Castform is searchable by any of these 8 supporters in the deck. Attaching it from your hand can be used in a lot of energy manipulation combos described later. In the latest build, castform pays for the energy costs of the techs. its generally just useful to keep your fire energy in the discard, so if you have to attach a fire, you can bounce it back and discard.

    Latias and Latios δ - Mentor for these two to shut off threats such as Magmortar, Kabutops (PK and MD), Eeveelutions, Pidgeot, Ampharos, Sceptile and Garchomp to name a few. Latias is a potential attacker for when you want to save Moltres as drops. it could KO a Garchomp LvX perhaps too, but I know little about that matchup.

    Mew δ star - Mimics Magmortar's attacks using the fire energy in the deck. Use rainbow wave with the basic water energy to do 20 to everything in Empoleon and put things in KO range. Rainbow wave with a basic water and fire for the same principle against Magmortar. Mimic psychic blade and such for big damage. Mimic Garchomp LvX's Restore for Redshift without the flip. Lots of fun opportunities, even as an opener versus Pachirisu.

    Jirachi ex - So fast and effective, stops Claydol and put things in Ko range. SSU it up to avoid the ex 2 prize. So energy efficent that even if they get the two prizes, you are so setup and their setup is wrecked you can sweep from there.

    Shuckle - The idea is to have it sit there against heavy call energy and heavy scramble/DRE users. While you try and get a Redshift or just draw into stuff and setup techs. Unown Q to get the "suprise extra energy". Ie they think you can't attach 2 because you need 1 for the other attack and 1 to retreat. That strategy is effective with all techs but Shuckle is a particularly useful one.


    _________________


    Strategy


    Use Holon Mentor and Roseanne's Research to get any pokémon from your deck: multiple at once. Go for Redshift or charge up with Rotom or Solrock. The following are methods of energy going to the discard pile:
    • Holon Mentor
    • Felicity's Drawing
    • TV Reporter
    • Retreat cost
    • Moltres' Burning Wing cost
    • Lunatone's Gravity Change
    • KO'd pokémon
    Use these to your advantage for fast and consistent burning wing attacks from Moltres. Use techs appropriate to the matchup and to reach damage boundaries. Generally, assess the situation and make moves accordingly. Make use of the energy manipulation combos as often as possible.


    _________________


    Decklist

    Click names for scans:


    Pokémon: 19
    4 Moltres
    3 Rotom
    1 Solrock
    2 Lunatone
    2 Unown Q
    1 Latios δ
    1 Latias
    2 Holons Castform
    1 Mew δ star
    1 Jirachi ex
    1 Shuckle

    Trainers: 23
    4 Holon Mentor
    4 Roseannes Research
    3 TV Reporter
    2 Stevens Advice
    1 Castaway
    2 Cessation Crystal
    3 PlusPower
    3 Super Scoop Up
    1 Time-Space Distortion

    Energy: 18
    10 Fire Energy
    4 Call Energy
    2 Lightning
    1 Water Energy
    1 Psychic Energy


    _________________


    Tournament Results


    Leicester STP: 2-2
    UK Nationals: 3-2


    _________________


    Matchups


    Magmortar varients: Great. Their only chance is to be super quick, even then Redshift can endure the attack and setup well. Latilock is there if needed to shut off the pokébodies. It is difficult for Magmortar to KO a Moltres in one attack. if they stack too many energy, they are left in a vulnerable situation. Rotom might help the matchup for them, but with a heads or two from flame Charge this is easy. Even just Rotom energy reflect to bring it to 80, then Latias to take the KO, saving Moltres for a finishing attack.


    Empoleon: Good. Their Omastar line is useless here. Rotom can be quite a threat with energy reflect while you slowly setup some Moltres, with or without heads from flame charge. Roseanne for Mew* and the water energy to rainbow wave all their pokémon for 20. if you do this fast enough when they have a big bench, you're doing big damage for little resources and can setup any attacker needed while Mew* is active. If they can OHKO Moltres, then you have about three turns of energy drops to make waste of with another attacker. Generally, you win by energy eficency but a god hand by them can be difficult,


    GG: Bad. Jirachi ex is a great card for this matchup you need to use as soon as possible. After that, because they have less prizes and setup, nothing can OHKO Moltres even if they do gte everything out. it comes down to whether you can get get the Flame Charge effect before psychic lock is too deadly, and whether they have the DRE to make it easy. Not a good matchup at all though.


    Grass decks: Great. Anything like Sceptile you can both shut off and OHKO is easy picking for Redshift. Just scorching wing, rinse repeat. Eeveelutions like Glaceon LvX are also shut off by Latilock so its simple enough to make them have wasted their Eevees.


    _________________


    Ending Notes

    Massive thanks for reading! Any comments, particularly critical are very much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  2. Flygon999

    Flygon999 New Member

    All I have to say is AWSOME THREAD!!!! It looks like you spent a lot of time making it and that it's worth fixing. I think that you could replace the x4 Holon Mentor for x4 Great Ball.
     
  3. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    Dude this deck looks crazy fun...and it just might work. I'm not so sure that Lati-lock is needed that much...it sounds like you need more Tauros so you can pull off your CB trick more often.

    I'll fiddle around with this a little. I'm bored enough :lol:
     
  4. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Thanks for the replies. Great ball is not something I want to use for these reasons:

    • Moltres, Tauros, Holon's Castform and Absol ex's "coming into play" poké-powers (or castform's energy attachment) will not work.
    • Absol ex and Latios ex δ cannot be searched out.
    • No discard, which is useful for Solrock/Rotom/Moltres.
    • Doesn't thin deck as much as mentor.
    • A lot of the strategies only work well when "everything is together". Getting one at a time isn't as useful.
    • Can't hold pokémon without clogging the bench, although mentor is wager vulnerable.

    Great ball is a good consideration in addition but 4 Mentor 4 Roseanne's is an important backbone to consistency. I might try out added great balls when I test it and see at which points in the game are most useful.

    Tauros I don't think is going to be as useful as some of the other cards. I think an important amount of scepticism is required - the actual chance of consecutive burning wings is not high. It's a one-trick-pony suprise approach to double as security against crystal beach backfiring. I think if Tauros appeared twice on the bench it would do more harm than good. There's always super scoop up.
     
  5. Flygon999

    Flygon999 New Member

    Then Dual Ball.
     
  6. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    Maybe more Sableyes or Warp/Switch/Pluspower/SSU? I have a feeling you'll want more than 2 +10s since a Burning Wing and an attack from Lunasol makes 130.

    A quick test run showed that the deck sets up fine. I didn't use Rotom as much as Solrock to reattach energy, though, so that could be something to consider.
     
  7. The Machampion

    The Machampion New Member

    Flippin Eck' Alex. You Really Did it With This List. Man Its Like The Most Impressive Thread Ive Ever Seen.

    Awesome

    As For The List I Dont Know What To Say.

    Solid.

    Luke !?
     
  8. OllieK

    OllieK New Member

    Awesoem thread ,nicely presented a good deck?!?!??! what more dyou want?!! Alex if this deck does well you should get the scans and make an archetype thread ;)
     
  9. Brawler

    Brawler <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=

    We have an archetype....:nonono:
    Awesome deck. Couldn't you play this with MD ape?
     
  10. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member

    I think that Blaziken is a better partner with Moltres. Think about this, if you go 4-2-4 with Blaziken you can make it so that Moltres can come into play get 3 energies even if you flip tails, and the PK Blaziken can do 50 and 10 to all your opponents pokemon which can help you get all those extra damage on those big 130 HP pokemon.

    Nice idea either way.

    Drew
     
  11. Brawler

    Brawler <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=

    Yes, but PK Blaze won't be in next year:frown:.Maybe Typhlosion?!
     
  12. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    Lots of flips already so a few more shouldn't hurt :smile:
    If I play extra basic search, I'll use dual; it's a nice card.

    Thanks for testing, that's good to hear! Very interesting point about Solrock. Hopefully as I play through some full games I'll see what is more useful when there are more energies in the discard pile.

    This ape?

    It's alright but being a stage 2 and without the poké-power is awkward. I don't think the 10 extra HP and free retreat redeems it. With Moltres, it can Redshift for a powered 100 attack from nowhere to suprise. Somewhat like Skittles.

    Thanks for the comments :thumb:
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2008
  13. Brawler

    Brawler <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=

    Would eveelution work with parts of this?
     
  14. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    In terms of stage 2 support, I'd rather go with Togekiss. SSU synergy, more effective energy distribution. E.g. one non-fire on each.

    The problem with Blaziken PK/Typhlosion MT is that you need :fire: specifically for both Moltres and the stage 2 powers. Don't want a trapped Moltres if it has :fire::fire::fire: before attack. With it only going to the bench, there's a problem of swapping around with active, amplified problem if there is a post-attack sitting duck problem.

    Both Togekiss/Blaziken/Typhlosion have poor starters too.

    I think the all-basic system is neater.

    Who said anything about next year? This deck is for when the new DP: Majestic Dawn is released - which is very shortly. And... ex Power Keepers might not be rotated! :pokeball:

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    Which parts? Moltres part - possibly but you're in an awful position Moltres start. Leafeon Lv.X has no great advantage over Blaziken/Typhlosion or Togekiss apart from attaching to active. Can't candy to the level X form.

    Rotom/Lunasol - Leafeon Lv. X likes the energy in the hand, not discard. Lunasol works great with the heavy Mentor/Roseanne which no Eeveelution likes.

    Overall, nothing basic goes great with the Eeveelutions because they like double rainbow and/or scramble. Whereas, nothing in this deck can have it attached.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2008
  15. Black Mamba

    Black Mamba New Member

    Why not use regular Latios delta and the Latias from GE? It can do 80 in a pinch, which is nice.
     
  16. Vegeta ss4

    Vegeta ss4 Iron Chef Leader

    I am more of a fan of Speed Moltres. Which runs Claydol and other things.:p
     
  17. kd0220437

    kd0220437 New Member

    I like that idea, but I really do like the Moltres. Why not run Leafeon and lv. x to attach an extra energy per turn. Just saying it is a good thought :D
     
  18. Rai

    Rai <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=

    [del]Torchic starts actually aren't that bad, but all of the extra junk you'll need to cram in will be[/del]

    I've got to wonder... After a Moltres drop, you aren't really using any more powers. Could Cessation Crystal make for a useable trick? Attach to the Moltres or something after it's active, of course, then Scoop Up Moltres when needing to use powers again.

    I also second the Latias GE and Latios HP suggestion. Latias gives you a back up hitter, whom will lose two energy a turn, but not all of them, and can still knock out every basic in the format AND Dent Garchomp (which could prove handy).
     
  19. TODDakaESTEBAN

    TODDakaESTEBAN New Member

    can a seemingly slow fire type ever work in a metagame expected to be full of water pokemon? if so good luck and nice job.
     
  20. Dennis Hawk

    Dennis Hawk New Member

    I'm thinking Energy Switch.
     
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