RNG-How much of an advantage?

Discussion in 'Electronic Games' started by Benzo, Mar 1, 2011.

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  1. Benzo

    Benzo Front Page News Editor<br>Forum Moderator

    So how much of an advantage does RNG abusing give a Pokemon in a battle?

    Even though the bonus of having a perfect/flawless/shiny Pokemon is impressive on some level (and NO I am not an RNG'er yet nor complaining or asking how to rng) -

    But rng can not prevent crit hits/ status infliction-- ect..... my point being that RNG'd Pokies do not really have much of on influence in alot of ways when it comes down to battles.

    Don't get me wrong, I see some of the advantages RNG'd Pokies have statwise in comparison to two of the same Pokies in battle against each other and one out speeds the other if both were ev'd in speed and the IV values are 29 vs 31-

    So- what is your input on the advantages and the disadvantages of an RNG'd Pokie?

    Just because a person has a "flawless" Pokie, it does not mean that they allways win, but in the competative seen- it can make a difference in the slightest way, good or bad right?
  2. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    RNG can mean many different thing for a battle. Though there is not way to RNG the battle itsself. eg Hydro Pump miss and hits, Evasion mods ect but a RNG Pokemon can mean the difference in a battle.

    The main differences other then shiny are the IVs and thats really it. A weavile that hatched 30 IV for speed is always going to lose out to the Weavile that was RNG for flawless speed in a speed war.

    Other then that, I see no real ability in RNG other for perfect stats. Flawless pokes can mean may different thing. I have a perfect HP Thunder 70 Vaporeon. We all know some stats had to take a fall for that but that Vappy is flawless. Sure its fun to brag about a flawless IV Pokemon but who wants a Dark type Hidden Power?

    As for competative game play. I'd just assume that everyone has perfect Pokemon. Most of the pokes are the same so stats are around the level for the most part.
  3. Pikamaster

    Pikamaster Active Member

    As Vaporeon stated, RNGing is only good for IVs and Shininess. You can RNG a Flawless Pokemon, or RNG it to have the best stats possible for a certain Hidden Power, have a 0 in Speed/Defense for Trick Room/Counter, any number of things. Also, RNGing (although I do not do it) makes legendary Pokemon with good IVs much easier to get. Before HG/SS came out, a good Suicune was only obtainable from Pokemon XD, and soft resetting that over and over for good IVs took a long time. Now it's relatively simple to RNG a Suicune to have HP Electric, be shiny, and be the nature you want.
  4. Kayle

    Kayle Active Member

    Though previous posters have covered the basics of your question, it's worth noting that when you IV breed a Pokemon, your defensive stats tend to be sacrificed for your more important stats (unless it's a defensive Pokemon). When you RNG that Pokemon you can get much better stats, sometimes a difference of 10-14 points, all around. It doesn't just mean that that Pokemon has the two extra IVs for speed or attack or whatever, it also means that they're better at taking hits, dealing hits, etc... - better at everything.

    How much of a difference 10 stat points is at level 100 remains to be seen, however.
  5. Jran Sakarra

    Jran Sakarra Active Member

    Someone can RNG there team and have it perfect everything, but if the person does nto know how to use the said team or the other team counters it, then it makes no difference.
    As for competitive game play.....
    Just assume that everyone RNG there Pokemon
  6. Benzo

    Benzo Front Page News Editor<br>Forum Moderator

    @kayle- see, that is what I am saying, how much it helps in a battle is yet to be determined HOW effective rng'ing is when it comes down to the battles themselves.

    I have battled many of people who rng their pokies, and either A: they dont battle well or B: they battle well but the battles are barely noticeable as to showing an advantage in thier favor.

    @jran- I do assume that everyone rng's- as it keeps me aware of the minor details such as speed stat wars, but there are still so many battle aspects that even an rng'd pokie cant stand up too in the heat of the battle due to things like crit-hits and the such.

    IMO- stratagy and some luck will best any "flawless" pokie team if you at least EV train and use plain old skill- RNG'd pokies are just a "bragging" way to show off ( and no, no one jump my case on that statement)

    It is a cool thing that rng exists, and it is cool that people have it figged out- it has a small perk to having the skill to know the ins and outs on the technical side of programming, but I have yet to see personally how much of an advantage it has in a battle.
  7. Chompy

    Chompy New Member

    Does Black and White offer a RNG feature
  8. ultimatedra

    ultimatedra New Member

    Lol - Feature. Every game that has "Random" anything has an RNG as a feature.

    Anyway, it is being cracked by some Top Men.:wink:
  9. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    It's being looked into but they will have to do it with the NTSC version of the game though because we always make a little change to it.

    I know Nintendo and Game Freak use new encryption methods for their games and any attempt to run a 'emulation' of the game has fail in may ways but most commonly, not gaining exp. Though they said they can't remove RNG for reason stated above, they did say they see it a 'cheating' and are going to make it as hard to figure out as possible.
  10. toxictaipan

    toxictaipan New Member

    lol @ them considering it cheating when they won't even let you see the stats to begin with.

    Benzo: Think of it this way. Critical hits and stuff are just luck. When you build a deck (TCG analogy), you build it as consistently as possible to eliminate as much bad luck as you can. You want your Pokemon to have the best stats possibles. It's no question. Yes, anything can fall victim to bad luck, but you want to have the best team you can get. They have all the advantage over a Pokemon with inferior stats, and that's about it.
  11. Benzo

    Benzo Front Page News Editor<br>Forum Moderator

    It is the goal to have the best possable stats for a Pokie, of course. No team is "at it's best" if a person did not do everything that can be done to obtain "flawless" stats- to even make the stratagy work at it's maximum potentual.

    I stated that I do see some advantages such as stat wars being the "breaker" in a battle, make it or break it such as speed stat difference between two Pokies ( ie... Kyogre vs Kyogre ) -
    the thing is, if two Pokies are exactly the same in all stats and IV's- it does not mean that they have been ev'd the same either.

    Either way, rng'd Pokies are the best, but still lay victum to luck- and an ev trained pokie can still muscle up and give an rng'd Pokie a run for the money with the help from random luck.
  12. Kayle

    Kayle Active Member

    This is a good point.

    Using the same differential of ~10 stat points I mentioned earlier [and using defensive stats for our test], we can determine which is more significant - the random luck factor, or the IVs...

    Damage = ((((2 * Level / 5 + 2) * AttackStat * AttackPower / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * STAB * Weakness/Resistance * RandomNumber / 100

    Using Glaceon's Ice Beam vs. Garchomp [my favorite example], assuming absolute max Sp. Atk on Glaceon, assuming "random number" to be 100, and assuming 20 Sp. Def on Garchomp in the "bred" condition and 30 in the "RNG" condition, we get:

    D(bred) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 394 * 95 / 258) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 ~= 731 damage (<3)

    D(IV) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 394 * 95 / 268) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 ~= 715 damage

    For a difference of 16 damage.

    Now, taking the "IV" condition's damage, and splitting two new conditions: "max random" and "min random" where random number is 100 and 80 respectively, we get:

    D(max) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 394 * 95 / 268) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 * 1 ~= 715 damage

    D(min) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 394 * 95 / 268) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 * .8 ~= 572 damage

    For a difference of 143 damage.

    In this case it's obviously a OHKO either way, but that seems like a pretty clear analysis: when compared to the difference the random number generation makes, IV differences are pretty petty.

    In this case, if I were to RNG Pokemon, it would ONLY be for their Speed stat. Since speed is a yes or no question, it makes the most sense to maximize it, because a difference of one point is enough to win you games.
  13. toxictaipan

    toxictaipan New Member

    Right, but what does that have to do with it? Luck is going to affect all battles, not just those with RNG'd Pokemon. EV's also come into play no matter what. If we have the same Pokemon but EV'd differently, you might win. You may have EV'd Special Attack and I may have neglected Special Defense. I think a good TCG analogy for this would be techs.

    You use the RNG to get the best stats possible, there's nothing more to it. Luck will be there regardless, and how you raise your Pokemon is also a factor, but again, not related to RNG'd Pokemon. I'm not sure what your point is/what you're asking.
  14. Kayle

    Kayle Active Member

    I would say that this is just because the difference the IVs tend to make is really not that big of a deal.

    You don't use a Pokemon with below 10 or even 15 IVs in a stat, if you can help it - once you've done that the difference the RNG makes, even if you assume a "perfect" spread, is so insignificant compared to the random factor that there's almost no point.

    Remember, the IV difference was 16 damage (and we can say that if you double the IV range, you probably double the difference in damage, so 32 to be generous) to compare against the 143 damage difference that the random factor makes.

    By comparison, though, if we take Glaceon's EVs away:

    D(EVs) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 394 * 95 / 258) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 ~= 731 damage

    D(no EVs) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 325 * 95 / 258) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 ~= 615 damage

    For a difference of 115 damage. And it only gets worse if you take away her positive nature, too:

    D(EVs) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 394 * 95 / 258) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 ~= 731 damage

    D(no EVs) = ((((2 * 100 / 5 + 2) * 296 * 95 / 258) / 50) + 2) * 1.5 * 4 ~= 561 damage

    For a whopping 169 damage difference (meaning that the nature made a difference of around 50 damage all on its own, too).

    The EVs and nature of a Pokemon make a very significant difference to its damage output (and presumably to its defensive capability as well), when compared to the random factor. But the 20 IV points don't.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011

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