Shifting Venomoth

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by dkates, Nov 20, 2003.

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  1. dkates

    dkates New Member

    I just asked this in Ask the Masters, thought I'd get some opinions from the community while I wait for the official answer.

    If Kecleon (our old Sandstorm friend) has, for example, a Fire and Lightning Engry attached to it, making it a Fire and Lightning type, can Venomoth use it as a reference to become a Fire or Lightning type?
  2. Big Daddy Snorlax

    Big Daddy Snorlax Administrator

    Well Venomoth's Power says:
    Kecleon is worded:
    Kecleon becomes those types, so Venomoth should be able to shift into them. IMHO

  3. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    My initial thoughts were identical to BDS's... I would let you chose either :fire: OR :lightning. But there is a small wrinkle... Kecleon's Type is simultaneously all types of basic energy attached to it. Hence its ability to do four times damage to double weakness pokemon.

    So If Venomoth shifts into Kecleon's type shouldn't Venomoth also be able to do four times damage? There is nothing in the wording of shift that appears to prevent Venomoth becoming a multiply typed pokemon just like Kecleon.

    So Venomoth could chose Kecleon and become a :fire: type in your example. I just believe that it has no choice and must also pick up the :lightning type too.

    [NoPoke runs away to see if Venomoth will make a better Kecleon than Kecleon ;) ]
  4. Big Daddy Snorlax

    Big Daddy Snorlax Administrator

    Interesting thought NoPoke. I don't think it would work though, since Venomoth says it can copy any type (singular) in play. It also just picks a type, it doesn't copy the Pokemon like Ditto. Kecleon's type can be Fire and Water simultaneously, but each is still a type on its own. There is no such thing as a combined type. That means if there are 5 types, you must pick one. Granted there were no Pokemon that could be more than one when Venomoth was printed, but I think it would go back to the original intent, even though now you could have all 5 types in play wrapped up in one card. Interesting point for discussion though.

  5. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    Well I agree that type is singular. A single pokemon has a single type. Since one is singular the other has to be too for the grammar to be correct.

    The same argument applies to Kecleon, which since it is also a singlular pokemon, uses the singular form 'type' results in Kecleon's singular type being a multicoloured composite. Kind of like how a single Rainbow energy provides only one unit of energy but all 8 types simultaneously.

    The fun bit is that without your original post I wouldn't have thought that hard about my answer and would have just said that Venomoth copies one of the 8 possible types that could be in play. It was only by trying to work out exactly what type Kecleon was that I came to the conclusion that Venomoth would also get the ability to do double double damage if circumstances arose.

    It all boils down to answering the following question

    What is kecleon's type when it has :fire: and :lightning basic energies attached?

    Anyone else got any thoughts....Its a whole week till the next rules team meeting :-D
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2003
  6. Imperial

    Imperial New Member

    i think you only choose one.
  7. Chrisbo

    Chrisbo Administrator

    I think you're trying to read way too much into the wording of this. Kecleon has special wording to allow it to be multiple types at once, but Venomoth has no such provision.

    I'm sure it's all perfectly understandable in the original Japanese; but since I cannot speak or read Japanese, I'm totally guessing :p .

  8. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    Hardly fair that venomoth has *NO* provision to be like Kecleon. Certainly prior to Kecleon that was true, but no longer. Venomoth's power says choses a non colourless pokemon. Then copy that chosen pokemons type. I take that quite literally to mean whatever type Kecleon is at the moment it is copied becomes Venomoths type. Since Kecleon can do four times damage against double weakness pokemon it seem reasonable that the shifted venomoth should be able to capitlise on both weaknesses too. After all kecleon's ability to do four times damage is purely as a consequence of Kecleon's type.

    But like you Chrisbo I don't read Japanese so just go by the english as she am wrote ;) Doesn't mean I'm right tho........

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