Super Smash Bros : Melee Discussions v2

[Marril]

I'm sure as **** better than you - so it's amusing how you're proposing arguments like dsmash > dtilt to someone with such an impressive tourney record.

First: *takes a shot*
Second: Learn to read my bloody arguments. Not since Moss Factor has anyone so stalwartly refused to read anything I say, and instead substitute it with the most feeble strawmen I've ever come across.

I don't really get how I'm at all losing this argument when you're too ****ing scared to even restate and explain your case anymore.

Frankly? It's easier to point and laugh at how immature you're being when flailing around helplessly than to try and explain for the umpteenth time why you're being a complete idiot. I figure that if you can't understand after the first dozen or so explanations, you never will. The only respectful thing for me to do is to realize this and accept it.

At this point you aren't even arguing about smash (which I'm doing),

And what does this say about you? Offhand, I'd say it's you forcing arguments on people for the sake of constructing strawmen and generally putting words in others' (i.e. my) mouths, in order to feel better about yourself.

Okay, so according to the first quote YOU dragged the argument, but according to the second I dragged the argument; explain how I'm supposed to argue with a hypocrite?

So, let's get this straight. You're intentionally provoking someone known for fantastic and lengthy arguments, for no real reason at all. I'm not the one dragging the Smash argument here, as you've noted. You are.

As I've said, I'm defending myself against unfounded and patently wrong claims.

I tried to respect you for being a coder; but as soon as you gave an incorrect description of wavedashing I realized you're obviously a lot less reliable than you think you are.

No respect that I saw. And really, as it turned out, I was right. You're not physically jumping during a wavedash, regardless of what initiates it.

Who the **** do you think you are?

I'm Marril.

I don't have to agree with you at all or talk to you respectfully after you've been going around spewing crap for 4 months about me; I'm showing a lot more respect towards you (though not much, I'll admit) than you're showing towards me

No, you're really not. You're showing no capacity to accept any paradigm outside of your preexisting one. You're showing no effort to so much as understand anything said to you.

while I may not be a Marril fan

Holy crap. I have fans?

I may have made the fuss, however I'm not the one who felt it was necessary to even bring the thought of this argument from topic 1 to topic 2; provoking an argument.

What so-called "argument" did I bring? "This is how you're not jumping during a wavedash." That statement has zero bearing on even your Smash ramblings right now, as you're on about kill combos and what moves are still good if they don't kill someone instantly.

Face it, you're the one continuing this. I didn't argue about Smash during the time you were gone from the thread. The discussion went on, life was almost back to normal, and then you started in again. It doesn't take a genius to spot the trend here.

you - having an excuse for everything - decided to bash his grammar errors rather than properly refuting what he said.

I bash grammar errors when it takes me more than a few read-throughs of a post to interpret what's being said. Simple as that. As I recall, the post by GaaRa in question took me three or four to parse what he was saying.

When a move is obsolete to another move the same character has, that's a good enough argument to say 'this move sucks'

Learn the difference between "strictly better" and "better." Then learn that I've never once said that down-smash is superior to down-tilt except in certain situations.

"Strictly better" is a highly precise term, which means something to the effect of this: "If A is strictly better than B, then in no conceivable circumstance no matter how farfetched is B preferable to A."

in your metagame you can get away with a laggy move and take, say - 10 damage.

If I whiff a down-smash? Closer to 50 at least. If I were to use down-tilt in a situation where I'd normally land down-smash? I'd take about that much, too.

 

[Zero Hax]

Frankly? It's easier to point and laugh at how immature you're being when flailing around helplessly than to try and explain for the umpteenth time why you're being a complete idiot. I figure that if you can't understand after the first dozen or so explanations, you never will. The only respectful thing for me to do is to realize this and accept it.

Then do that, not my fault your argument is so ****ing stupid.

And what does this say about you? Offhand, I'd say it's you forcing arguments on people for the sake of constructing strawmen and generally putting words in others' (i.e. my) mouths, in order to feel better about yourself.

it says I'm trying to stay on ****ing topic, what else would it indicate? wow..

So, let's get this straight. You're intentionally provoking someone known for fantastic and lengthy arguments, for no real reason at all. I'm not the one dragging the Smash argument here, as you've noted. You are.

As I've said, I'm defending myself against unfounded and patently wrong claims.

Dragging, as in brought it from thread A to B. You still contradicted yourself regardless and while I may be lengthening the argument you're the one who started it which was unnecessary (you did NOT have to enter this thread with your opinions on melee discussions v1, but you did).

No respect that I saw. And really, as it turned out, I was right. You're not physically jumping during a wavedash, regardless of what initiates it.

okay, so what initiates something has no value whatsoever as to whether it's a glitch or not? The fact that wavedashing reacts so similarly (it's the same ****ing thing.. ffs) to l-cancelling says something : it's not a glitch.

No, you're really not. You're showing no capacity to accept any paradigm outside of your preexisting one. You're showing no effort to so much as understand anything said to you.

mmk.

Holy crap. I have fans?

Apparently not.

What so-called "argument" did I bring? "This is how you're not jumping during a wavedash." That statement has zero bearing on even your Smash ramblings right now, as you're on about kill combos and what moves are still good if they don't kill someone instantly.

Face it, you're the one continuing this. I didn't argue about Smash during the time you were gone from the thread. The discussion went on, life was almost back to normal, and then you started in again. It doesn't take a genius to spot the trend here

I quoted it 1-2 posts ago are you ****ing stupid.. I'm trying to end the argument with this post as disrespectful as it may seem; you really didn't have to ask this when it was already answered.

I bash grammar errors when it takes me more than a few read-throughs of a post to interpret what's being said. Simple as that. As I recall, the post by GaaRa in question took me three or four to parse what he was saying.

Correction:

I bash grammar errors and completely ignore the actual post when it takes me more than a few read-throughs of a post to interpret what's being said. Simple as that. As I recall, the post by GaaRa in question took me three or four to parse what he was saying, so I completely disregarded what he intended to say [even though I eventually deciphered it] and decided to bash him because I'm biased and he doesn't respect me anyway.

Learn the difference between "strictly better" and "better." Then learn that I've never once said that down-smash is superior to down-tilt except in certain situations.

"Strictly better" is a highly precise term, which means something to the effect of this: "If A is strictly better than B, then in no conceivable circumstance no matter how farfetched is B preferable to A."

Excuse me, I understand of the emphases on the word 'strictly;' thank you.

The fact that you even USE dsmash makes me conclude you're rather bad at this game. It serves no legitimate purpose whatsoever, in your next post restate why dsmash is even the slightest bit good [it isn't].

If I whiff a down-smash? Closer to 50 at least. If I were to use down-tilt in a situation where I'd normally land down-smash? I'd take about that much, too.

50 damage? Right.

If you were taking 50 damage every time you whiffed a dsmash, why would you use it? You're making stuff up at this point, Marril. You would've learned by now that a move like dsmash isn't worth risking 50% just to land it and hit 15%.

oh yeah, hold on; what the **** ever happened to this:

-CFalcon -> utilt : broken edgeguarder; ***** samus' upb and intercepts fantasm
-Ganon -> ftilt : again an amazing edgeguarder that comes out quick and is ****ing strong
-Ganon -> fair : great kill move with huge range and power
-Ganon -> ENTIRE MOVESET FFS : ganon doesn't combo like CFalcon, Sheik, etc.; but he's a very good character (tell me he's bad and I'll link you to all of Joe Bushman's videos)
-Samus -> downb : one of her best moves, one of the best moves in the game at that.. amazing recovery and owns shields
-EVERY UPB IN THE GAME : can you think of an upb that is used to death combo? I sure can't. but according to the criteria you've made for me they must be horrible moves since they don't combo.
-Bowser - UPB : I just HAD to mention this one. Bowser doesn't happen to death combo, but his UPB is the 2nd best move in the game. But of course, it must be horrible because it doesn't death combo.
-Fox - Laser : well I dunno, I mean it doesn't KB them so obviously it must be a bad move, right?
-Falco -> Laser : as broken as SHL is it must be bad because it doesn't actually kill them.

now then, tell me where you came up with this ******** criteria I 'have.' You TAUGHT me what strawmanning is, you TOLD me not to do it, and what do YOU do? You make one by saying 'you think EVERY move sucks if it isn't involved with deathcomboing,' and then you start bashing me about something YOU think I said.

If you're EVER, EVER going to tell me not to do something, DON'T do the same; there's no way to argue with you if you're going to do this and I really do think it's this unfair arguing style that wins you so many arguments. Go mature up and start refuting half the comments I make. If you're not going to respond to this then I'm just going to take it as you forfeiting the argument. If you're bad at smash, don't come here and start crap with someone who has a very good tournament record. You have NOTHING to back up your case other than your own sorry *** and it's really, really sad that you think you're winning by a long shot.

 

[Marril]

Then do that, not my fault your argument is so ****ing stupid.

My argument isn't what's stupid here. Don't assume that there are no problems on my end. If I've explained something so many times, and you've failed to comprehend it, then the problem isn't on my end.

it says I'm trying to stay on ****ing topic, what else would it indicate? wow..

The only way you're on "topic" would be if the only point of "on topic" was to discuss Smash at any cost. Otherwise, you're simply bringing in arguments that had no place in this thread before you bluntly strongarmed in space for them.

while I may be lengthening the argument you're the one who started it which was unnecessary (you did NOT have to enter this thread with your opinions on melee discussions v1, but you did).

I didn't start this argument. All I really did was post the answer to a question from the first, and let it go from there. You're the one making such a big deal about nothing at all.

To go by even your logic, you don't have to construct strawmen and then beat them down, which is where almost all of this argument comes from. I'll point again to the fact that the thread looked like it was going to recover after you shut up, but then you went and opened your mouth and flagrantly bashed me. Again.

The fact that wavedashing reacts so similarly (it's the same ****ing thing.. ffs) to l-cancelling says something : it's not a glitch.

I'm not even going to get into this. You're simply trying to make this thread exactly like the old one. You're wrong about it, end of debate. I don't want to see you ruin this Smash thread out of pettiness.

For shame, Hax.

Apparently not.

I must admit, it's a better situation than having sycophants.

The fact that you even USE dsmash makes me conclude you're rather bad at this game.

Wow.

I really have nothing to say to this, as the sheer fallacy speaks for itself.

If you were taking 50 damage every time you whiffed a dsmash, why would you use it?

Quite obviously, then, when I use it, I almost never miss.

If you're EVER, EVER going to tell me not to do something, DON'T do the same

That's a statement I've lived up to for every post in this thread. Unlike you, I'm not inventing arguments out of thin air. I may draw logical conclusions from arguments of yours, but that is a completely seperate thing than just making **** up.

If you're not going to respond to this then I'm just going to take it as you forfeiting the argument.

You take it as whatever you like. You can even put a little "LAWLS I BEET MARIL" into your profile (until an admin removes it without telling you), but it won't make it any more true.

Just for fun, and to see if you even know what you're talking about: Repeat to me what you think my thesis statement for this thread is. All of it, not just little snippets. Do it rationally, without any kind of disrespect at all.

If you're bad at smash, don't come here and start crap with someone who has a very good tournament record.

*takes two shots*

One for the baseless accusation, another for you fluffing yourself up. You've got some real self-esteem issues.

it's really, really sad that you think you're winning by a long shot.

Oh, I know I'm winning. Aside from sycophantic chime-ins like, "stop destorying[sic] marril hax" (from Viet no less, so there goes your "bias" argument) you really don't have anything going for you. The only thing you're "winning" is a fictitious argument you're playing both sides in (and consequently are the things I don't "refute").

 

[vietgamer1021]

up tilt kills more than up smash

its a pain in the ***** to sweet spot it

up tilt is better than up smash

dsmash can actually do something better than up smash

ex: at close range, it sends them far away, when tippered, it sends them up, possibly killing them
(uptilt = dtilt) > dsmash > upsmash

arguments?

 

[Marril]

No arguments here. I never said down-smash was a great move, just that it wasn't useless.

 

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

I leave to go outside, come back, and there's like this humoungus argument. =( Next time I get to play some matches I'm going to vid record the best I can and then you guys can tell me if I've improved at all. =D

 

[Zero Hax]

up tilt kills more than up smash

its a pain in the ***** to sweet spot it

up tilt is better than up smash

dsmash can actually do something better than up smash

ex: at close range, it sends them far away, when tippered, it sends them up, possibly killing them
(uptilt = dtilt) > dsmash > upsmash

arguments?

utilt is definitely the reason people don't use usmash at all, but if you learn to sweetspot it really isn't that bad against floaties. utilt is great because it juggles and techchases people on platforms (when you're below), but usmash actually has 1 legitimate use (not at all saying it's a good move; it's still Marth's 2nd worst IMO).

dsmash puts them in a bad trajectory (up and far, far to the side.. it's amazingly easy to DI and if you actually hit with it, it ends a combo immediately because you can't do anything after the lag. It doesn't really have anything going for it.

Besides, when you whiff dsmash fox just rshdl's away netting 15% damage if done fast enough, AND it spaces him so he can camp. That's really bad. =/ Falcon kicks the **** out of you if you miss one as well; this applies for usmash also but like I said, at least it has a decent use.

Wow.

I really have nothing to say to this, as the sheer fallacy speaks for itself.

Because you're really an impressive smash player who has all the evidence in the world to say; 'dsmash is a usable move.' You don't have a tourney record, you sound like a dumbass, you shouldn't be talking.

Quite obviously, then, when I use it, I almost never miss.

And it helps you, how? The sheer lag prevents you from finishing any combos that might've been going on - why not just sh-fair-uair into fair-dair for a kill? dsmash doesn't do anything amazing like that.

Just for fun, and to see if you even know what you're talking about: Repeat to me what you think my thesis statement for this thread is. All of it, not just little snippets. Do it rationally, without any kind of disrespect at all.

but, I haven't gotten answers to half of my questions; who are you to talk? You're just avoiding any arguments I propose that question your smash knowledge because you don't want to look like a dumbass in public.

And, after ignoring any questions I bring up that you don't have the answer to; you start putting words into mouth by saying 'omg, any moves that aren't in death combos suck.' Then, after I present a list of many broken moves that are not at all related to death combos, you fail to respond because you know you just made a fool out of your own ****ing self.

*takes two shots*

One for the baseless accusation, another for you fluffing yourself up. You've got some real self-esteem issues.

As funny as your '*take(s) ___ shot(s)*' game may be to you, it's unfortunate that you don't think tournament records say anything about how good someone is. You complain about how I don't respect you at all, and in the end; you couldn't give half a **** if I placed well at tournaments or not.

Oh, I know I'm winning. Aside from sycophantic chime-ins like, "stop destorying[sic] marril hax" (from Viet no less, so there goes your "bias" argument) you really don't have anything going for you. The only thing you're "winning" is a fictitious argument you're playing both sides in (and consequently are the things I don't "refute").

viet is apparently neutral in this argument. If he backs you up, you'll agree; if not, you don't. If he was strictly on my side you'd be bashing him just like GaaRa.

And, have you ever considered that vietgamer is one of the very few good smash players to post in this thread? Thankfully he actually knows how to place in a tournament; and saying 'Marth's d-smash is great, learn to love it' definitely isn't a step forward.

I don't think you know half the stuff me/him are talking about if you want the truth; you tend to get involved with very simple arguments such as dsmash vs dtilt but as soon as we start talking technical smash gaming you don't respond at all. Maybe this is how I've concluded I could beat you at smash [and you shouldn't be talking so much **** to someone a LOT better than you]; who would know? :|

And, while I have sycophantic chime-ins from vietgamer [and a very, very good tournament input which you forgot to mention]; what do you have? As I stated in my last post [which you failed to respond to, obviously], you don't have anything backing you up other than your own sorry ***.

yet, you make claims like 'hax has nothing going for him in this argument' [and actually, I do have evidence.] as if you really have the slightest piece of evidence backing you up other than your own damn opinion. Too bad opinions don't cut it.

 

[Captain Petey]

man brat your hella serious about ssbm

 

[vietgamer1021]

oc3 might be held in San Diego California

lolz it might me like next door to my house XD

but you get the idea XD

up smash is hard to land with, rather than kill with

dsmash hits more for me than up smash and it works when i use it as an accident (shruggs)

thats my personal experience

dmsash has its uses, some that dtilt doesnt cover, but overall, like b4, (dtilt = up tilt) > dsmash > up smash

o yeah marth up+b can be used to death combo (reverse dolphin slash ftw), as with fox/falco, falcon/ganon, and others

yoshis up+b sux for recovering but great for camping

i feel flattered yet ashamed in this argument

 

[Ancient Pokemon Trainer]

I suck what does camping mean? ;/ Does it mean spacing yourself out or something?

 

[Marril]

You don't have a tourney record, you sound like a dumbass, you shouldn't be talking.

This sounds like you hiding behind some "tourney record" to say... what, exactly? What statements have I made that you're refuting by saying, "I have a great tourney record"?

why not just sh-fair-uair into fair-dair for a kill?

You're the one trumpeting himself as this board's god of Smash, so tell me this: Would that combo result in a kill 100% of the time, against any character, in any circumstance where down-smash could possibly land? That was your implication, after all.

You're just avoiding any arguments I propose that question your smash knowledge because you don't want to look like a dumbass in public.

Actually, I'm "avoiding" arguments that are patently off topic. You're the one dragging this thread in a direction it wasn't meant to go, by introducing arguments that you claim I'm making when, really, I'm not.

you start putting words into mouth by saying 'omg, any moves that aren't in death combos suck.'

This was, however, the logical inferrence. I asked you repeatedly for clarification that Smash games were decided by whoever landed their hit or throw first, and while you weaselled out of any definite answer that I can recall, you definitely posted with great certainty that matches ending in death combos from 0% are far more common than matches where people manage to break out of the combos and survive. Therefore, if anything except this brand of Smash "sucks" (as you claim I do) then anything that doesn't directly support this brand of Smash would by association also suck.

Not quite QED, but I'm assuming even you can see the logic here. Especially after I quite conspicuously went out of my way to try and get you to verify some of these claims.

you fail to respond because you know you just made a fool out of your own ****ing self.

You're the one with inconsistent arguments, not me.

it's unfortunate that you don't think tournament records say anything about how good someone is.

Oh, they say something. But they're not to be hidden behind. It's a highly fallacious argument to say, "I've got this record, therefore my opinion has to be right unless someone with a better record says otherwise!"

You complain about how I don't respect you at all, and in the end; you couldn't give half a **** if I placed well at tournaments or not.

You'd still be a petulant little kid even if you didn't place well in Smash tournaments. Respect is earned, not automatically given out. I'm obligated to follow the board's rules of conduct, because I agreed to them when they did that "PokeGym Rules!" change and I said yes. I am not, however, obligated to necessarily be nice to you because you can play Smash Brothers better than some people. I'm not obligated to show you personally (as opposed to professionally) respect for no reason. Get over yourself.

Thankfully he actually knows how to place in a tournament

Good for him? I really don't see what your saying this is supposed to accomplish.

you tend to get involved with very simple arguments such as dsmash vs dtilt but as soon as we start talking technical smash gaming you don't respond at all.

"Technical Smash" has nothing to do with what I'm arguing in this thread. I'm not here to debate the differences between a short-hopped up-air or short-hopped neutral air for whatever character happens to be the subject of discussion at any given moment.

You invent arguments and put them in my mouth. I can't help it, but I can quite easily show how much of a brat you're being.

As I stated in my last post [which you failed to respond to, obviously], you don't have anything backing you up other than your own sorry ***.

Anyone who thinks that validity is based on the number of people agreeing with you really shouldn't be arguing against me.

yet, you make claims like 'hax has nothing going for him in this argument'

Well... you don't. Not against any argument I've actually been making. The strawmen you've been carefully building up, sure, but it's a good thing they don't count.

 

[Tagrineth]

Marril... quit being such a PMS headcase and chill, and quit baiting Hax already because it's getting old and tired. It's really quite trying on everyone involved when people who actually play SSBM competitively, or at least have some interest in doing so, have to wade through your completely meaningless arguments with Hax that have absolutely nothing at all to do with this thread's purpose. Hax even said in the OP he didn't want any arguing, yet you of course hopped right in and baited one right back out.

You're such a pathetic troll, and you love every minute of it. I don't think you even realise how much you revel in your incessant baiting and trolling, but it's pretty obvious. You need to step back and maybe think that before you ruin ANOTHER SMASH THREAD, you should leave it be... because this has really gone way farther than it ever should have.

I'll be PMing Pop about this thread shortly.

Edit: PM was sent.

 

[Marril]

For the record, no, I don't revel in this thread. Each post I make is tedious and irksome to write, the only reason I even do so being that otherwise we're getting a completely false tale spun about me, and I'd rather not be so vocally and immaturely insulted. I mean it truthfully when I said that I'm aggravated by Hax's inability to let things from the past thread go, regardless of the fact that, as I said, it takes two to tango and I'm tangoing as well.

My original intention was simply to wrap up the outstanding question from the other thread and leave it be. Of course, that didn't work so well, and it snowballed quite heavily. Is that my fault? Partially, but I'd still err on the side of "no," because at this point I'm not even debating Smash. I was done debating Smash pages ago—now all I'm finding myself doing is defending myself from Hax. Regardless of how it comes across, that's what I'm doing as I see it. Everything being argued about now: tournament records, Marth's down-smash, even that attempt to bring wavedashing back into it, wasn't anything I went into the thread arguing. If I have to eat a temp ban or something for it, then that's the punishment I get.