Theory of Creation

Discussion in 'Random Topic Center' started by clement30, Sep 8, 2007.

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  1. Marril

    Marril New Member

    Sophistry at its finest is a beautiful thing. A terrible thing, when used by the wrong people, to be certain, but still a beautiful thing.
  2. thethirdckelly1

    thethirdckelly1 New Member

    Please be joking.
  3. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    why should she be joking?
  4. SD PokeMom

    SD PokeMom Mod Supervisor Staff Member

    i'm not joking.

    i've posted this before: a buddhist minister i know and respect once said that any religion that dwells on 'creation' and an 'afterlife' doesn't teach it's followers how to live in _this_ life, right the present moment, which is the ONLY one we have. and before anyone goes off on the tangent, NO i don't mean that in any hedonistic, 'live for today, i can do whatever i want without consequences' manner...

    so ultimately: how is it going to change my life if suddenly NPR were to break into the 'morning edition' broadcast i'm listening to right now with the 'news' that an evolution/big bang/your choice of origin of life theory has been 'proven'? is that going to change the _fact_ that i'm alive, right now, in this world as it *is*...not how it 'was', nor as it 'might be' in the future?

  5. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    ^well said

    my belief
    there is no god
    there is no afterlife
    and even if there was and i knew it, i would still not go to church, and not worship god

    if god is going to send me to **** for not worshipping him, then i want to be as far away from him as i can get when i die
    honestly, ill go to ****, most of my friends and family would be going down there for not bieng devout worshippers of god anyway
    and who woud go to heaven? bible thumpers, a few good people who devoted their lives to god while still remaining decent human biengs, and several people who devote their lives so totally to god they never really lived
    ill take my chances in **** if thats the type of people who will inhabit heaven

    if i am right about my theory of god, should he exist, then he doesnt care about your worship to him (seriously, why would he create a race of basically "yes men" to remind him he is all powerful all the time?), he cares about your actions and your contributions to others here on earth
    reading the bible, one can see god evolving from a wrathful creator in the begining, to a loving father-like diety as it goes on
    perhaps the bible is simply outdated

    whichever the case, i am happy with my life, and that is all that matters
  6. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    I feel a lot of sympathy for Saint Thomas and the father of the epileptic boy. I think that my daily prayer should mirror Mark 9:24. Faith is hard.

    Anyway I usually read cosmology for my daily dose of “how all things came to be.” I’m continually fascinated by the ideas of the big bang, oscillating universe, sliding planes, and more. Wonderful postulates and theories all … and for those of you who get hung up on the word “theory” you need to look at how scientists use the word as opposed to it’s common language usage.

    I don’t really have an issue with reconciling a belief in God and a scientific understanding of evolution & cosmology.

    One of my favorite quotes is “Faith is a candle to reason’s sun. No one needs a candle ... until the darkness falls....”

    Science can tell all about the universe we live in, how we got here, and give us the tools to change the world around us. However science will never be able to answer the questions of what happens when we die, why we are here, or if there is a God.
  7. Magic_Umbreon

    Magic_Umbreon Researching Tower Scientist, Retired

    The bible says there will be no tears in Heaven and we will understand why the heaven/**** split is there and accept it. Family/friends won't matter anymore as we will be with God.

    In ****, there will be so much pain there will not be any satisfaction from anyone around us.

    Why would you choose **** over heaven if personal relationships basically don't count?
  8. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    because i believe the bible to be nothing more than mans writings about god, not gods divine word
    honestly, i believe that the bible may as well be saying "bing tiddle tiddle bong", it doesnt mean anything to me

    and i could care less about bieng with god
    i would be happier bieng given 10 seconds with my friends and family than i would be an eternity with god
  9. Sandslash7

    Sandslash7 <a href="

    ^ So then are you happy now? (haha, I like the bing tiddle tiddle bong reference)

    Anyway, my post that I had to interrupt writing:

    PSYCO, on your point of Wrathful --> Loving.

    If you read Revelation, God does pour out his wrath on the world, so He has not "evolved" that out of His system. There are other references that I can give you, like Romans 1:18

    Plus, you can see many instances of a loving God in the earlier books of the Bible.

    Examples: God raising Abraham up out of Ur and blessing him and his descendants to multiply until their numbers were like grains of sand on the beach. Gen 12:1-3 and Gen 15:5-7.

    God protecting the Israelites when they were in bondage in Egypt, and bringing them forth through Moses with great wealth from the Egyptians.

    God keeping His people safe when Israel was taken over countless times by foreign countries. (Babylon, Assyria, Medes and Persians)

    (here are some verses in the Bible dealing with love, mercy, and grace in the OT: Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31; Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5; Psalm 86:15; Psalm 108:4; Psalm 145:8; Joel 2:13)

    I'd like to address this.

    You have some very valid points. I do believe that we should live in the today. Who knows when some random car will T-bone yours and you die instantly? (other than God, but that's not the point)
    We should accomplish everything that we can in the precious time we have, and use every 5 minutes like it's our last 5 minutes.

    Disclaimer - I do NOT mean to go and do whatever you want (i.e. illegal activities whatnot) but you shouldn't just sit around engaging in mindless activities (staring at the TV/video games) all day.


    My faith looks beyond the present to the future. Where I come from and where I am going is very relevant to how I live my life today. If I didn't know what was going to happen next, I don't know whether I would have the faith I have now. This also ties into the origin of everything. To me, it does matter where I came from, as I believe that the world was created by God as told by the account in Genesis.

    It doesn't change the fact that we are all alive right now, with one life to live...

    But, yeah... It might change how the world appears to everyone as well as how it will be in the future.

    Let's take a hypothetical situation for a second. (hypothetical as it has no basis in science or faith at all)

    Now, hypothetically, wouldn't every logical person comprehend this message and do as the CFSMWIII says and offer up the sacrifice? Wouldn't the proof of the origin of the world lead us to take into account the future, and help us prepare for its coming?

    My only reason for this absurd example is that: Depending on how you believe the world started will definitely impact how you live your life now.

    Example: Because I believe that God created the world like the account in Genesis, I believe that when I die, I will go to heaven, with anyone else who believes. I also believe that the world will go through a Tribulation period as described in Revelation, and at the end, anyone still denying God will face his Justice.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2007
  10. thethirdckelly1

    thethirdckelly1 New Member

    I'm not saying that most people would change their lives, but I happen to have no idea what I'm going to do with my life. If I was absolutely 100% sure that there was God, which a lot of christians claim to be, but really aren't, I would do nothing but worship Him. I'm very possibly going to enter the priesthood to do just that, but it's hard to commit your life to something that you aren't completely sure about. My life would change completely one way or another if God was totally proven/disproved.
  11. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    more happy than i can recall ever bieng before in my life
    and im glad SOMEONE else watches stargate atlantis and gets that joke

    i never said the wrath was gone from him, and i never said he was not kind before
    i am mearly pointing out that his actions seem to have turned more towards loving manking than punishing them
    i can give you an example

    i could go out right now and scream "i hate you god" to the heavens, and he would probably not strike me down (before you can ask, yes i did it in a moment of extreme rage and frustration. i am still here). look at adam and eve, they ate a FRUIT and they and their decendants (us) were punished for all of eternity with disease, suffering, and the knowledge we had lost paradise

    god himself may not be evolving, but his actions towards us seem to be getting more loving, and less vengeful
  12. Sandslash7

    Sandslash7 <a href="

    I don't believe that screaming that would get you slain. He doesn't hate you for it. Eh... I can't be sure, but I don't think that anyone in the Bible got struck down just because they said they hated God.

    Now, about the fruit, it's not just the fruit that made them suffer, but the act of disobeying God that made them cursed. If God says don't do this, and you do it, than he has no choice but to punish you. (only a sacrifice has the ability to commute your sentance.) Since Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, we now only need to accept it, and no killing of animals is involved.

    Anyway, (wow, we're off on a tangent)

    I kinda think it's funny that even an atheist would scream that, even when he believes there is no god.
    (Seriously, I do not mean to offend you or to poke fun) But I do think that a lot of times when things are going wrong, that people cry out to god (any one will do).

    Why? I believe, as it says in the Bible, that people are born with an innate knowledge that there is a God, and that they can never measure up, and that they know he knows. I believe that people try bury it so deeply that they will believe anything else that doesn't include God, so that they can just escape the feeling of inadequacy.

    ^which, coming back to the main thrust of the thread, is why I also think that we were created, and not evolved.

    Because humans are the only created beings that worship. Monkeys don't worship. Dolphins don't worship. Lab rats don't worship. Only Humans. This leads me to believe why we are different than animals. Because we have mental functions on a much higher plane than everything else, but also because we are created in God's image. (possibly not in physical form, but in spiritual form, i.e. we have a Spirit/Soul whatever you want to call it) Our Spirit/Soul knows that there is a God, and thus urges us worship. (no matter how misguided our attempts might be) This Spirit/Soul is what separates us from the beasts, and is why I believe what I believe.

    Uh... NOTICE I may have used a winding road there. If you need me to explain more, just ask, 'cause I kinda got a little carried away and lost track of what I was saying
  13. ZAKtheGeek

    ZAKtheGeek New Member

    As long as we're in the business of self-serving assertions, I think that most religious people have likely been confronted, from within or without, by the reality that their faith makes no sense, but hold on anyway because it brings them comfort or because it's so deeply entrenched in their mind from a lifetime of considering it to be simple fact.

    I find the former explanation is quite good enough, myself. Without the curiosity or capacity to try and understand how the world around them works, or simply through having more important things to do (like constantly struggle to survive), no other mammal has bothered to invent a controller-being to try and appease.
  14. ixidor89

    ixidor89 New Member

    This brings to mind the part of the Bible that says "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

    Seriously, if Jesus can live for forty days on a mountain and not cave in to Satan telling him to command stones to turn into bread, why should God prove to you that he exists by killing you for saying that you hate him?
  15. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    my girlfriend who i had been going out with for a year and a half had just commited suicide
    forgive me for feeling a little anger
  16. ixidor89

    ixidor89 New Member

    The problem isn't that you yelled "I hate God", it's that you say that and argue that he should have struck you down for saying that you hated him.
  17. Sandslash7

    Sandslash7 <a href="

    Good, now that we've gotten our respective views out of our system, I think we can talk logically.

    I am so sorry. I can't imagine how you must feel.

    Do you mind if I pray for you? (no, seriously)

    Anyway, I'm not blaming you for your fury.

    I wonder why? And I wonder where we got the curiosity or capacity to understand the world... If we aren't different than animals, where was the point when we grew, (how do I want to put this) self-aware(well, not really, as elephants are able to tell that they are looking at themselves in a mirror) or able to reason?

    Did a giant monolith from space crash-land into a prehistoric wasteland near a clan of apes?

    I think that question is also semi-related to the question of "How did life evolve from non-life."

    Louis Pasture(correct my spelling, I may be wrong) showed that "Spontaneous Generation" was a farce, that all life came from life already in existance. However, (not to degrade or dismiss the bulk of scientists) Spontaneous Generation is the cornerstone of almost the entire basis of scientific knowledge today. It's just gotten an ugrade in Nomenclature.

    Although it's not fair to ask you, how did random interactions between atoms and molecules create the first cell?

    I digress, as neither the non-life-->life question nor the non-sentience-->sentience are questions anyone can prove.

  18. ZAKtheGeek

    ZAKtheGeek New Member

    Why all the catastrophism? Why's it gotta be some momentous event, as opposed to a gradual process? Evolution, baby.
    It's not really like we have something that no other animal has at all. Plenty of mammals have been shown to have reasoning ability; we just have more.

    First of all, Pasteur's experiment is completely irrelevant. I'm not claiming relatively complicated organisms (though still single-celled) appear in common everyday situations, which is really the notion that he was putting to rest.

    What I'm talking about is some sort of unimaginably rudimentary bunch of life-chemicals in a completely different environment than anything we see today. And no, I certainly don't purport to know exactly how it happened. I'm not even sure that it did. Maybe original life got here on a space rock, and started somewhere else, under more favorable conditions.

    But let's talk about terrestrial abiogenesis a little. Life, basically, is a set of chemicals that reproduces itself. Is it so unreasonable that some chemical structure catalyzed its own creation from necessary components, getting energy from a convenient energy carrier molecule? That's how I imagine the start of life. And considering the vastness of the universe, it seems probable that such a thing would have happened somewhere and that these increased in complexity and efficiency to end up in a variety of complicated and amazing forms.
  19. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    you copletely missed the point i was making with that
    i said god has changed from bieng almost nothing but wrath, gloom, and vengance, to a god more loving and caring about humanity
    that was the point i was making with that =/

    lol, agreed
    hopefully this will not turn into a flame fest of "my religion is better than yours" like the last one did

    i would not mind your prayers
    please feel free to, and thank you for thinking of me

    i agree 100%
    the idea of life springing from non-life is absurd
    "if you mix two parts hydrogen, and one part fish, you get life"
    yeah, ok...
  20. Sandslash7

    Sandslash7 <a href="

    I've read how in experiments they've "recreated" a "primitive earth" and gotten simple amino acids and such from sending electrical currents through gases of many different elements and compounds. (the quotation marks are only because we have no way of knowing what it was like back then)

    However - even simple amino acids are nothing compared to protiens and membranes. And amino acids can't reproduce themselves...

    Let's take for example a single cell, a typical bactierum cell. As a model, there are approximately 100 billion atoms in it.

    To get a living cell one must have many different reactions and molecules all working in sync with one another. The most basic parts are: Plasma membrane, Capsule, Cell wall, DNA, Mesosomes, Ribosomes, Cytoplasm and Flagellum(a). (the Flagellum is one of the most intricate and detailed organelles in existance.)

    To show the complexity of a single cell, I'll give an example of a Plasma Membrane.

    A cell membrane is created by a polar - non polar phospholipid bilayer. Simply put, the plasma membrane is a collection of Double Stuf Oreos (TM) floating on top of a kiddie pool. (or like Ping Pong balls, but with Oreos, you get a better picture of the entire structure). The cookie parts of the oreo are the hydrophillic(water loving) heads(2 separate molecules), while the Double Stuf represents 2 chains of Hydrophobic (water hating) fatty acid tails.

    What makes the membrane stay together is the attraction of the Hydrophobic chains to each other. Because they don't desolve in water, they are forced into contact with one another, and they repel the water round them. With enough, you can create a sphere, where no Hydrophobic chains touch water.

    Thus, the plasma membrane is a ball of water, surrounded by a layer of Oreos, and submerged in a lake (or pool)

    For event the smallest cell, the amount of molecules needed to create a Plasma membrane is enormous. They all would have to be incredibly similar to fit together, as well as contain all the other peices to create life.

    In short, this irreducible complexity leads me to believe that I was created.
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