Top ??? for State Championships

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by SteveP, Mar 4, 2004.

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  1. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    FYI, here's what it says in the SC FAQ about the single elimination rounds after the swiss rounds:

    So, what do you think? I assume POP will break down those numbers for us before the SC. I remember Meganium45 suggesting some numbers a while back. Maybe they'll use those number, which seemed pretty good to me.

    Plus, I assume we're all taking this into account while planning our various SCs. Here in Colorado, we're reserving the Hotel conference room for all day. But, I expect some SC PTOs might not play the minimum number of swiss rounds in order to fit in the single elimination rounds. Hopefully not though.
  2. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    I would guess that if you can have a T8, you have a T8. If not, you take whatever you have (or maybe a percentage).
  3. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Sorry BJJ, I highly doubt it will work that way. Why even have swiss rounds if all eight are going to be in the playoffs. If you have only 8, there WON'T be a top 8, but probably more like a top 2.

    Meganium45, can you post those numbers you suggested to POP? Have they responded back to you?
  4. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    I will post them, PUI has not set hard guidelines, but they have come close to my suggested numbers, I will dig those out and repost them on that thread.
  5. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I just heard from a friend you played in the Dallas TX CC. He said they used a Top 25%, rounded up, single-elimination playoff. That sounds good to me. Here's how I'd do it using that formula:

    N = number of players
    X = N/4

    if X <= 1 then
    -- Top 0 (no playoff)
    elseif X >1 and X <= 3 then
    -- Top 2
    elseif X > 3 and X <= 7 then
    -- Top 4
    elseif X > 7 and X <= 15 then
    -- Top 8
    elseif X > 15 and X <= 31 then
    -- Top 16
    and so on ..........

    So, putting this formula into a table, we have:

    1-4 players = Top 0 (no playoff)
    5-12 players = Top 2
    13-28 players = Top 4
    29-60 players = Top 8
    61-124 players = Top 16
    and so on.........

    Does this seem reasible? Anything much more seems to make the swiss rounds appear moot to me.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2004
  6. Physics Squirrel

    Physics Squirrel Active Member

    Yeah, that seems reasonable, except you might want to make it so that you round up, meaning that if 1/4 is 14, you do top 16 rather than top 8. But I dunno.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2004
  7. Professor Dav

    Professor Dav Master Trainer

    Exactly. The general rule for swiss tournaments to break to a top X finals is to plan on about 25% of the total attendance to advance to a finals.

    We'll make sure we get this info out to the PTOs, just in case.

    Prof. Dav
  8. TellTheTruthBK

    TellTheTruthBK New Member

    One thing that I haven't seen discussed here...

    When we cut to the top N players, is it per age group or for the entire tourney? The software (1.06, 1.07) doesn't appear to support multiple single eliminations. I haven't had a chance to check the new version yet. If we have to run elimination for each group then we may have to create seperate tournies and combine the TRN files afterwards.
  9. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    yah, I was wondering too about how to round. Here's the math for 10-15 players. Somewhere in this mix, you have to decide where to start doing Top 4.

    4/10 = 40%
    4/11 = 36%
    4/12 = 33%
    4/13 = 31%
    4/14 = 29%
    4/15 = 27%
    4/16 = 25%

    I'd suggest the taking any more that 30% of the players would NOT be good. So yes, maybe the top 4 cutoff would be at least 14 players (in the particular age group).

    Regarding how to run States, might I STRONGLY suggest that PTOs separate the players into the 3 age groups.

    1. This will result in a "true" age group champion.
    2. The number of swiss rounds will be reduced by 1-3 rounds.

    Finally, hopefully some PTOs won't make the mistake of doing a Top X that includes all age categories. Each age group MUST have their own Top X.

    Anyway, hopefully POP will have this information in the tournament organizers' guidelines.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2004
  10. DaytonGymLeader

    DaytonGymLeader New Member

    BK, it still doesn't. Personally, States NEED to be run as 3 separate events - 1 per age group.
  11. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    In fact, my PTO said he specifically referred this question to POP and was told that major events (even the pre-releases) should be separated out into the 3 age categories whenever possible. So, I'd say it's the "default" to run such tournaments this way. Age-modified should NOT be the norm, but rather the exception.

    Furthermore, since you can run the three tournaments separately, then merge the .TRN files together to upload the results to ONE tournament, you don't even need to sanction 3 different tournaments. But I suppose it would be best to sanction them separately.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2004
  12. Big Daddy Snorlax

    Big Daddy Snorlax Administrator

    I'm not sure you should be including Prerelease tournaments in the statement that PUI wants major events seperated into 3 age divisions. The guidance the PTOs have been given is that PUI" wants all Pokémon TCG events to be run as Age Modified events unless there are more than 24 players in each age group." We have also been told that events that have big prizes on the line can be handled differently.

    I have run three large Prereleases (60 to 70 players) and really haven't had any problems with the age modified swiss system. Cutting to the top xx in each age group can certainly even out any preceived inequities in pairings, if that is a concern.

  13. Feraligatr

    Feraligatr New Member

    BDS I couldn't agree more. Also if I remember right it was specified to do top 25% per age group which makes more sense then top 8. As we saw with the Charlotte CC using top 8 didn't really make sense because we had 11-14 playing 15+. Instead if you cut to a top 2/4/6/8 for each age group you will have a definite age group winner.
  14. old man

    old man New Member

    For those not familiar with the TMS software, it might be intersested to know that a "cut" doesn't have to be an even number. You can have a playoff of an odd number of players, like 7.
    I think some of us are/were so used to WotC & DCI reporter doing a cut of 2,4,8,16, etc., that we find it hard to accept a cut of the top 5.
  15. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    So with 64 players 5, 6, or 7 swiss rounds followed by a T16 ie another 4 rounds. Which makes 9,10,or 11 rounds required at state championships.

    Is it just me that thinks that a blanket 25% make it past the cut at states is a little bit high.

    If you aren't convinced try it with the 120 or so players that went to the pokemon center pre-release. 120 players 6,7, or 8 rounds of swiss and then 5 rounds of playoff.
  16. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    If you examine carefully what TMS does when you switch to playoffs with non-power of 2 players you might get quite a surprise. It certainly doesn't behave as I would have anticipated: which is to favour the top seed. Instead it gives an advantage to the middle seed. Go Figure!
  17. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    BDS, by running age-modified in the swiss rounds, then cutting to top X in each age group for the playoffs, how does that NOT cause problems or concerns?

    1. Why even bother running MORE swiss rounds when you can run LESS by separating players out into their age groups?

    2. Pairings at the top X are all about seedings. Sure, if you have no problem with how the top X players are seeded in your example (age-modified swiss, age-separated top X), then you're probably NOT convinced.

    BDS, the ONLY valid reason I can see you wanting to run age-modified for your 60-70 player tournaments is because maybe you only have 3-4 players in one age group. If you have 8 or more in each age group, then age-separated in the way to go.

    So, please explain why you really prefer age-modified over age-separated with 60-70 players.
  18. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    OK, yawn, wakens...

    Until told differently by PUSA - Missouri and Kentucky will be run as follows:

    Main age modified swiss tourney with top players/4 cut for each age group either top 2, 4 or 8, I will not risk uneven cut numbers for fear of the software.

    I will have to manually pair those matchups within the software - but we will be using 3 Dry Erase boards "Bracket Style" for each age division for the final 2/4/8 so that all can see what is coming, and who they will play in the next round, traditionally seeded, with (for an 8 person bracket)

    1 playing 8 Winner to play Winner of 4/5 X
    4 playing 5 Winner to play winner of 1/8 X

    3 playing 6 Winner to play winner of 2/7 X
    2 playing 7 Winner to play winner of 3/6 X


  19. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    meganium45, I assume the Top X is a bracket system (all pairings and possible future pairings are set in the beginning), not an NFL-style system (pairings are re-done after each round to pair the best remaining player against the worst remaining player). I've only played in one Top 8 (the professor challenge), and it seems that's the way they ran Top 8 (brackets).

    Anyway, how are you going to cut to the playoffs? What are your numbers?
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2004
  20. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    Yes, it is a set bracket system, It will be posted for the room to see using 3 large "white boards", so you will be able to see who you hit next.

    for the tops, 2-7 will be top 2, 8-19 will be top 4, and 20-63 will be a top 8, if we get 64 in a division, we will go top 16, but I really do not see that happening until Gym and Stadium Challenges.

    Not set by PUI (I have an e-mail into them), but very relevant, as my first event is Saturday!


    Also, single elim for top 8 1st round, but top 4 or better rounds, 2 out of 3, one hour time limit, only partial game will count in game 3. If game 2 is incomplete, the winner of game 1 is the winner.

    As long as I declare this early, I will have some standard to hold onto. For me, completed games are worth more than partial games, and if you win a game, and time is called, even if you are losing game 2, you win the round. If Time is called after 2 games are played, the player with the most prizes in game 3 when time is called will be the winner. If time is called after game 2 is completed, but before game 3 is started, the players will have 10 minutes to finish a game 3 result. At the end of the 10 minutes (or sudden death thereafter) the winner will be declared. If anyone has a more fair way of doing this, I would love to hear it.

    STEVE - YOU DO THIS A LOT (2 of 3) PM me with suggestions to discuss, I would love your input. And, after our bet of last year, I do have to run major decisions through you still, right LMAO!!!

    Last edited: Mar 29, 2004
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