What do you expect the Pokémon TCG to give you?

[Sandslash7]

I wouldn't quit, but I would be very, VERY unhappy. Here's a thought. I started out this game 2 years ago as a total n00b, having no clue how to build a good deck. What did I do? I looked at the worlds decks (ya, they DO publish some decks) and did a lot of testing trying to figure out what the good combos are like. ON MY OWN, I figured out how consistency often makes for a winning deck. I managed to figure it out with out people's lists being posted after every tourney. Why shouldn't everyone else?

Yes, but you STARTED with a worlds championship deck. That gave you the idea of how good decks are made. If those had never been made, countless people might still be in the dark on good deckbuilding techniques.

 

[Zephyr]

Yes, but you STARTED with a worlds championship deck. That gave you the idea of how good decks are made. If those had never been made, countless people might still be in the dark on good deckbuilding techniques.

But they aren't. What is your problem with the current system if they publish top-finishing Worlds decks? You get what you apparently want: netdeckers who take the worlds decks (ESPECIALLY this season given the lack of rotated sets) and do poorly the rest of their careers because they deny themselves the creative spark required to truly understand and run a deck properly. I for one am forgoing the current metagame's archetype choices for this season and running my own deck which may or may not be successful (it's undefeated in over 20 games over redshark thus far), and I'm getting far more satisfaction out of it then when I ran Luxape in the Grinder and went 6-2. I don't think lists that you do well with should be opened to the public for this reason. Feel free to come at me with all the socialist pseudo-logic you want. I think that people should be given their due according to the effort they put in to the game, and netdeckers simply don't put in nearly the effort original deckbuilders do.

 

[Prime]

Let's be frank. People don't like to post their lists because they don't want people to take their list and beat them with it.

There is luck in this game, and people know that their skill can't win them every game.

Having a good list is a big advantage and if everyone had a good list and luck on their side, good players may not win as many games as they want to.

If people embraced the luck of the game more, and cared less about winning, we would see more lists posted. Since that is not the case, welcome to the 'World of Secrecy'.

 

[Sandslash7]

/snip

I don't recall my post ever saying I was against the Worlds Decks, or that I had a problem with the current system. I am in fact FOR them.

BUT, I also never said I "wanted" netdeckers to have available to them every deck that wins any major tournament posted, thus stifling their creativity. Please show me where I implied that.

Feel free to come at me with all the socialist pseudo-logic you want

Really?
I agree that people should get out of the game as much as they put in as well. It seems to me that you just wanted an argument, not paying attention to what little I said about the topic.

 

[Zephyr]

Your first statement is flawed, at least in my case. The reason I don't want to post my list is because it might become popular, and as a result of its popularity it would become a tainted list because people would prepare to face it in advance, thus ruining the spirit of bringing surprises to the tournament table.

Having a good list isn't a big advantage - being able to MAKE a good decklist is a big advantage, one that people who have it deserve.

Why should we embrace luck in a competitive tournament? For myself, I try and minimize the luck factor in my decks as much as possible in order to increase the consistency of their performance.

This is just silly.

EDIT: @ Sandslash: Sorry, that post was directed at more than just you, it was directed at others as well. So where I seem to be putting words in your mouth, I'm actually speaking to others. I know my post was confusing in that manner.

Also, yes, I am looking for an argument, but one in good spirit. Nothing like a good debate!

 

[Prime]

Your first statement is flawed, at least in my case. The reason I don't want to post my list is because it might become popular, and as a result of its popularity it would become a tainted list because people would prepare to face it in advance, thus ruining the spirit of bringing surprises to the tournament table.

You're right, I forgot to mention that in my reasons for people not wanting their list to be public information.

SDs (Secret Decks) are the slang thrown around ever since a few surprises won big tournaments in the past.

Problem is that by the end of the tournament, any good player is going to have a good idea of what your deck is. Good players congregate, and your idea then becomes theirs. Before you know it, your 'surprise' deck is already being tech'd for at the next series of tournaments.

Having a good list isn't a big advantage - being able to MAKE a good decklist is a big advantage, one that people who have it deserve.

Having a good list isn't a big advantage? So I should expect to do just as well as Mr. World Champ (15+) with my sloppy Beedrill deck?

Being able to make a good decklist is a good advantage, but once the tournament starts, you're not going to do especially well because you can come up with a good list. You're going to do especially well if you can play well, and that has very little to do with building a good list. They are linked, I'll give you that, but there are many people that have borrowed a friend's deck and done brilliantly, because they are good players, not because they are skilled deck builders.

Why should we embrace luck in a competitive tournament? For myself, I try and minimize the luck factor in my decks as much as possible in order to increase the consistency of their performance.

Because it's a game? Because every game has luck involved in it? When I say embrace luck, I don't mean to set yourself up to be a victim of it. I just mean to understand that every game will involve luck and not worry so much about controlling every little aspect and removing every little piece of luck that you can. Understand that it is just a game and that you will sometimes lose and sometimes win.

Other games do perfectly well while posting winning lists online, Magic the Gathering for example.

 

[Scipio]

Theres the thing though, if you dont want your list online, then as it is now, you can just say "I dont wish to give out my list. I played *insert deckname here*, but the techs and such I keep to my own". If you want to, then you can post your list, such as Fabien did with his Gyarados list, and some other high ranked players did too.

Now I'm first to admit that I take ideas from there as well, combining them with my own stuff, like Pooka's Roserade GL. I don't netdeck though, but I do benefit from people posting lists. But it should stay like this - on a voluntarily basis. What happened 2 years ago was annoying (I TRUK'd him with my TRUK and then won with TRUK) but eh. What matters is the freedom to post what you want. Plenty of high-ranked players DO post their lists.

If I win a tournament, I post my list once the deck has ran its course. That is my choice. To each their own choices, as far as I'm concerned - just look around and you see plenty of interesting ideas.

 

[Varna]

Luck less prevalent? B-o-3, the ability to mulligan, more dedicated tutor, cantrips, and a larger interaction with the concept of resource-denial and tempo. The whole structure of resource-allocation and objectives within the game produce two very different styles of play.

Best of three makes things marginally better, though mulligans are hit-or-miss, in my experience, due to the reduction of a card each time you do so. More dedicated tutors? What Magic format are YOU playing? There is NOTHING in standard Magic that beats the search capabilities of Pokémon (Bebes, Roseys, Cyrus,etc). The rest of that - the style of the game - doesn't have anything to do with the luck involved. They are different games, so what?

Whatever was posted about some pseudo-experiment with two twins is bullocks, to be brunt. I have a few friends who have grown exceedingly well because of having lists available to them, where they would never have had such progress without a good example. Some players may do better, some may do worse. However, the ones that do worse clearly didn't have the motivation to make their own decks to begin with, so what's the difference? Availability == good.

But they aren't. What is your problem with the current system if they publish top-finishing Worlds decks? You get what you apparently want: netdeckers who take the worlds decks (ESPECIALLY this season given the lack of rotated sets) and do poorly the rest of their careers because they deny themselves the creative spark required to truly understand and run a deck properly. I for one am forgoing the current metagame's archetype choices for this season and running my own deck which may or may not be successful (it's undefeated in over 20 games over redshark thus far), and I'm getting far more satisfaction out of it then when I ran Luxape in the Grinder and went 6-2. I don't think lists that you do well with should be opened to the public for this reason. Feel free to come at me with all the socialist pseudo-logic you want. I think that people should be given their due according to the effort they put in to the game, and netdeckers simply don't put in nearly the effort original deckbuilders do.

I ask you this: What is your problem if they released the decks after each tournament cycle was done? At that point, the format would change anyways, just like after Worlds. It shouldn't be a big deal.

Let's be frank. People don't like to post their lists because they don't want people to take their list and beat them with it.

There is luck in this game, and people know that their skill can't win them every game.

Having a good list is a big advantage and if everyone had a good list and luck on their side, good players may not win as many games as they want to.

If people embraced the luck of the game more, and cared less about winning, we would see more lists posted. Since that is not the case, welcome to the 'World of Secrecy'.

This. It all boils down to "it's bad for my chances at the tournament, so no thanks."

Magic gets along fine with posted deck lists, and I really see no reason why we couldn't too.

 

[Articjedi]

I've also heard they make the decklists public for the players in the tournament, it eliminates scouting disparities because now everyone knows what you're running.

 

[baby mario]

I don't think there is much wrong with posting decks after a tournament cycle. In fact, this usually happens anyway on here. I dunno if POP has the time to go around collecting and posting winning lists from hundreds of BRs Citys and States.

You know what is better than just having decklists though? Actually ASKING good players for help. If someone murders your deck at a tourney, why not ask them how they did it (if you can't work it out for yourself) and see if they can't give you some advice. Also, how about trying to LEARN from your losses and putting some effort into working out how not to get beaten in future?

I have never met a really good player who refused to help me. In fact, people who are so desperate to protect their secrets probably aren't that good anyway, seeing as they are so scared they will lose to you if they share any info.

 

[Politoed EX]

I have no idea where this topic went to but just glancing at the last page I saw this:

1. Elite players get more stuff because we don't make it easier for everyone else to win and have a "feel good" I got a prize mommy moment? Give me a break.

DarthPika calls himself elite now? Give me a break.

 

[Qwachansey]

I think it's almost essential that people post their decks. This is because my first deck had 24 energy and was horrible because I was building it like the guidebook from the pre - constructed deck said. Without deck lists and help, I would have gone into a tournament with 24 energy, 24 Pokemon, and 12 Helpers!

I think the best would be to post a basic idea of all major decks, and then have people create their own combos. techs, or new decks.

 

[totoro]

Elite players get more stuff because we don't make it easier for everyone else to win and have a "feel good" I got a prize mommy moment? Give me a break. If you want the prizes, win more.

That's it. Shennanigans.
While you, DarthPika, DO qualify as a very good, even excellent player, I find it quite presumptuous to place yourself in the same category as players who consistently place at the top at the NATIONAL level. Oh, that's right, you always get a "bad" matchup/hand or have the misfortune of hitting the lucksack who donks you. When you are ready to come back down to earth and assess yourself with a little more honesty and humility, I'll take you off my "ignore" list.

 

[DarthPika]

ROFL!!! What funny responses over a typo on my part. XD

I changed the sentence half way through, and I missed part of it, sorry for the confusion.

In no way would I ever consider my self elite. Trust me, I suck at this game, really badly. Even if I was good enough to be elite, there's no way in the world my luck would ever let me do it. So ya... I suck and am stupidly unlucky all at the same time... don't think that quite qualifies as elite. ;P

 

[Qwachansey]

ROFL!!! What funny responses over a typo on my part. XD

I changed the sentence half way through, and I missed part of it, sorry for the confusion.

In no way would I ever consider my self elite. Trust me, I suck at this game, really badly. Even if I was good enough to be elite, there's no way in the world my luck would ever let me do it. So ya... I suck and am stupidly unlucky all at the same time... don't think that quite qualifies as elite. ;P

Heheheh, the old "blame it on a typo" trick. .

 

[DarthPika]

No seriously, it was a mistake. I'm a horrible player. >_>

 

[Qwachansey]

No seriously, it was a mistake. I'm a horrible player. >_>

Everybody makes mistakes, everybody has those days!

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

Everybody makes mistakes, everybody has those days!

John Galt does not make mistakes, James.

 

[Pogiforce]

lol, oh wow, this is the most epic drama thread for pokemon I have ever seen.

Now in this whole prize support thing, I honestly can't say a single thing. I played way back in teh wizards days, but never actually went to any tournaments, and I did so horribly that I never earned anything at Leagues. i was THAT bad.

Then I took a break of about ten years, and now that I'm back, I'm just now learning as to what the prize support is for this upcoming season. I am JUST now starting back up. What do I know about dwindling prize support? all I know is that I am really liking hte Uxie LA promos. that's all I know. Perhaps to you guys it's a step in the right direction, perhaps not. I don't know what you guys think.

Totoro is the organizer for the league I now attend, and it's pretty interesting. he's very polite and professional with all the players regardless of age. Which is why it was admittedly hilarious to see him go off on DarthPika. No offense Darth.

 

[Phazon Elite]

You know what is better than just having decklists though? Actually ASKING good players for help. If someone murders your deck at a tourney, why not ask them how they did it (if you can't work it out for yourself) and see if they can't give you some advice. Also, how about trying to LEARN from your losses and putting some effort into working out how not to get beaten in future?

THIS

A year ago, I started playing at league again, and I was discouraged at how terrible everyone was. There were dumb kids running Rival in fours! After some time, they finally started asking me how I kept beating the crap out of them, so I spread my deck out and showed them how to build a fast, consistent deck. A year later, League is actually a challenge, and I actually stand a threat of losing a game no matter what I use.

Is fun, yes. : )