Why Changing Format wont change the fact its still a crapshoot

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by SebastianS, Apr 25, 2011.

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  1. Jaeger

    Jaeger New Member

    Replace Lafonte with Underground ;)They have a like 10 times the number of players that we do, yet we have some how managed place more people at the final table of Natioanls than they have.

    Not hating on Lafonte just a bit of friendly rivalry :)
  2. Wood811

    Wood811 New Member

    This will be true. SD's everywhere as well with one rly good one im sure.
  3. Kayle

    Kayle Active Member

    Big difference bro. L-canceling is a trick that takes skill to pull off and does not severely impair either player so long as both are capable of doing it (I'm assuming here but I'm pretty sure). Donks violate both of those rules.
  4. slayer_chaos

    slayer_chaos New Member

    Wronggggggggggg. L-canceling is not a glitch or a trick but something the creators put in the game. It was in smash 64 too. And wave dashing is simply an interaction between air dodging and the physics of the game.
  5. Shen

    Shen Active Member

    L-Canceling was present in SSB64 and the developers were aware of it when making SSBM. In SSB64, L-Canceling eliminated all lag, whereas in SSBM it only reduced it by half. So it was evident that the developers knew of its existence. According to some players who played the SSBB beta at "E-for-all," a similar form of L-Canceling was present when fast falling some aerials and it reduced lag by half as well. It may not have been intentional in SSB64, but it clearly was in SSBM.

    Wavedashing on the other hand, while not exactly a glitch, is a better comparison to donks in Pokemon. Wavedashing is an exploit in the physics system; all of the programming is available (sliding, etc) to allow for a Wavedash to happen, but it wasn't intentional. That's pretty much a donk: they exist and can happen, but some decks (like Uxie donk) have exploited the game's mechanics and created decks which were never intended to exist.

    Is it normal as some have argued? The rules allow for it, so yes... but not to the extent that is currently present. If that were actually the case, I don't think TCPi would even give a midseason rotation a second glance.
  6. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    ^Not to get too off topic but L cancel was not intentional. Its just allowing you to block as soon as you hit the ground without the blocking taking place. It's just a glitch in the games programming but just became a normal action for players.

    You have to remember that Melee was a faster game then 64. Sure 64 had the cancels but it was a slower game. Melee is a fast game, characters were heavier, so it allowed for better cancels.

    just saying, I don't want donks to become standard glitch for the game.

    ---------- Post added 04/29/2011 at 04:13 AM ----------

    I should have said that better. What I should have said was it was not intentional. It's just a glitch that the game allowed for. Look at the Pokemon games. Clowing your Pokemon has been around since R/B/Y I believe. Sure its been in the game from the start but the makers of the game did not intend for it to be there. It's just a glitch in the game they can't remove. It does not mean they put it there on purpose. Even Brawl allows some characters to L cancel and they remove it from that.

    ---------- Post added 04/29/2011 at 04:17 AM ----------

    I guess you're right but not everyone can L cancel. No where in any Melee book, in game training talks about L-Cancel. Its just shielding as soon as you touch the ground which cancels any animation... not any but you know what I mean. A win by glitching is always bad and Melee had it on a huge scale and people called in advance play. Sure it looked cool when you can do 30 thing in 5 seconds but its still glitching..
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  7. Tamoo

    Tamoo New Member

    Sorry I don't usually post here but as a long time SSBM player and tournament goer, Vaporeon seriously don't try and talk about things you don't know about.

    L-Cancelling WAS intentional. It has a very significant purpose in that it doesn't totally end landing lag from an arial, but in fact cuts it EXACTLY in half. The fact that it does something very specifically is proof enough that it was intentional, along with the fact that it was part of the 64 game ofc in which it reduced landing lag of all arials to EXACTLY 4 frames iirc. The developers then admitted that they omitted it from SSBB as they wanted to reduce the skill factor of the game in order for it to be more accessible to more people (which is an awful intention tbh). Wavedashing on the other hand whilst it was not intentional, there is evidence to suggest the programmers of the game knew about it and decided to leave it in there. There is no 100% evidence to support this but it would be naive to think that the programmers did not experiment the effect of air dodging on a solid surface.

    Also it's certainly not shielding as soon as you hit the ground. There is a 7 frame window in which to press either the L, R or Z button but you can let go at any time. Once you get good at it, you never ever shield when l cancelling as it's really inefficient to do so in tournament as there are less options out of shield.

    AFAIK, there are no true 'Glitches' that are allowed in tournament. There are exploits like wobbling but not glitches

    But this is all rather irrelevant as it's hard to truly compare SSBM to a TCG imo, whilst there were a lot of skills I could transfer over but it's a totally incomparable experience in general. Using things that weren't intended in the game but the game allows for is not using glitches. It's simply using exploits of the game mechanics, very big difference.

    In any case, I'm excited for the US tbh, I've found slow decks to be a true test of skill and it will certainly be very interesting to see what makes the top tables
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  8. EeveeLover

    EeveeLover Member Services Administrator

    Is this a Video Game topic now? Cause if it is, I see a lock coming...
  9. vanderbilt_grad

    vanderbilt_grad New Member

    That's not absolutely true. In certain formats, like our most recent one, donking is fairly common. In the BR format with BW rules & MD-on it's going to be even more common. However in most other formats donking has been uncommon at best. It was usually a luck based fluke at best in most of DX-on for instance. That is I take "normal" to mean that it's something that's expected to happen regularly at events.

    On the other hand if you want to define "normal" as a known way to win, then I suppose your statement might hold, but then again it would be meaningless in a practical sense.

    Porii, I'm not one of the guys who slams you. I don't hold a grudge against people who build and play donk decks & feel like it's a reasonable way to win in our current format when looked at from the perspective of a given individual player. However that doesn't change the fact that overall too much donking is bad for the game as a whole. I find most of your posts to lack that distinction. You defend your approach without straying from your narrow self interest in the matter. Just my 2 cents.
  10. Otaku

    Otaku Active Member

    First, let me make a simple comment on the "donk" side discussion: losing because your only Pokemon was KO'd in the first few turns is part of the game, and meant as a balancing agent for Pokemon who can be the focus of a deck with little other Pokemon support, or other decks that can get by running very few Basic Pokemon. Even if a deck is geared to take advantage of an opponent presenting the opportunity to donk, that isn't so bad. When a deck is designed to never give the opponent a chance to avoid being donked, that is where most of us draw the line. If it wasn't for my next statement, I'd try to think of a clever comparison.

    Second, maybe we should stop using analogies because frankly, people are having a lot of trouble with it in this thread. -_-'

    Take the sports analogy, where the poster tried to change soccer into basketball, but as has already been stated that would require we switch TCGs entirely, not continue playing the same one with different rules and sets. Plus I found it funny since aren't there rules tin both High School and college sports that restrict how long a person who manages not to graduate for multiple seasons retains player eligibility?

    The Pokemon TCG is based out of Japan. In Japan, they decided the rules had to change. It only makes sense with a TCG that is global that we have to make all the rules match as much as Organized Play can, and that Japan gets to set the standards.

    The last few formats have gone from "okay" to "bad". It may have taken worries about Sableye winning first turn to get something done, but I doubt that was the only reason, or else it probably would have been simply banned. I will play devil's advocate quick by pointing out that Pokemon's experience with bans is short and bitter: its been done but the results were debatable at best. Given the frustration many players have expressed due to this and the last format and what has happened with the game in Japan, an early rotation makes the most sense, and this puts it just early enough that serious players should be able to adapt in time, plus most players should just be able to enjoy the game more.

    For those who find this crippling to your success at Pokemon, I ask: were you really successful? Or did circumstances happen to favor you unduly and you cannot really take any credit for your good fortune?
  11. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    I did not mean for that to happen. It was just the best comparison I could have made at that time.

    It's just sad when people can't accept that their advanced techniques and or donks are just 'glitches' the games allow for and then defend them like no end.

    ---------- Post added 04/29/2011 at 12:47 PM ----------

    ^ That I agree with. Donks are bad in any way but if it was a setup issue and your opponent could not get going and you did fine, then a donk is fine but e don't don't need decks that are made for that.

    Not that it matters much anyway. While I like this next frmat, its still going to be bad. Everyone is trying to make Zekrom donks now. Just look at deck help, its full of the same things.

    @ Tamoo

    I've looked into the games code. I know a glitch when I see one. I'm done with that now. Back to why the format can be saved while new players won't allow for it.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  12. espeon200

    espeon200 New Member

    Key word bolded for emphasis. Donks will still happen, and players will still try to make decks to exploit one facet of this game, but many of the key cards that would let you get rid of multiple cards in one turn are going away. There's no Crobat, no Poketurn, no Poke Blower +, and no Uxie to get all of them into your hand. There is still seeker, but you no longer have to worry upon starting with three basics if your opponent can still get the donk. If you have three Pokemon on your bench at the beginning of the game, it'll probably last for awhile... at least two turns, and likely more. Also, something to remember, a deck that is optimized to take a win by donks usually doesn't have any late-game follow-through. If you can survive that first vicious assault on your Pokemon, you'll more than likely be able to set up and take the win.
  13. eriknance

    eriknance New Member

    It's not because Zekrom is the best deck choice, it's because there is a bulk of players who have never had their hands on a deck that didn't operate with blinding speed. They actually don't know that the best decks in the Pokemon TCG can be slower, setup decks. These players have seen entire years pass where speed was the name of the game, where every stage 2 in every set was supposed to just look nice in a player's binder.

    I was having a little bit of an issue with Speed Zekrom the other night, but teched my deck accordingly and have not lost a game to it since. Bouffalant works nicely, Zoroark can help, there's always Donphan, etc. Plus, pulling off everything required to do 120 turn 1 with Zekrom is rare (or getting the donk with a Pachirisu). It happens more than I'd like to see, but it's still hard to pull off. And it's the ONLY deck in HGSS-on that can pull that off realistically. In today's format, every competitive deck outside of Vilegar has the disgusting advantage of being able to do 50+ damage first turn with ease (not even getting into Sabledonk).
  14. Tyraniking

    Tyraniking New Member

    Who cares? As a supporter of Rogue, I kind of like the idea of no format. I think there's about 20 viable decks out there, and most will see play. The winner of nats will be a surprise, and that's a good thing IMO.
  15. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    Comments above.

    I'm not sure what the game is trying to do. This is the first time we had basic Pokemon with 130 HP that could hit for 120 damage with no real recoil what so ever. Every other Pokemon that did that had to discard everything attached, need other Pokemon in play, was ex and still had to discard everything.

    This is just a bad way to start the next format. because it still allows only a few decks to be played and that Donphan and some other speed water decks. We'll still be at about 4 decks played. Zekrom, Reshiram, Zororak can be good, but not by itself. Maybe with Donphan and Cinccino. and some other fast deck.

    I'm not sure if I'm liking all this speed. Its kind of bad for the game.
  16. baby mario

    baby mario Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg

    The winning deck might be a surprise.

    The winner probably won't be.

    In the Sabledonk format, it would have been the other way around.

    @ Vaporeon

    Of course everyone is going to TRY Zekrom to see if it really is that good. Everyone SHOULD try popular new decks, especially people who play rogue . . . that way they know what they are up against and what they have to counter.

    Doesn't mean everyone will end up playing it at Nats.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  17. PokeMedic

    PokeMedic New Member

    I guess there will always be people who can never be pleased with what they get.
  18. Banette EX

    Banette EX New Member

    I'm loving the new format change, I love rogue and this will only show who has skill and who just dosent netdeck. With this small pool to begin with, simple draw engines and pokemon setups can be established. We can play trainers first turn, trainer lock vileplume is still around so we can still lock decks, with energy accel decks, and combo decks.

    How could you not like this decision, I can play eeveelutions and still have a chance to win the tournament.

    Also, why would everyone play Zoroak? In mirror its useless and is only a counter kill pokemon. If it is played in a pool of many viable decks, it can be decent, but still bad because most decks its going against will counter kill them the same way after a prize. Thats just how I see it.
  19. vaporeon

    vaporeon Moderator

    I just hope Zekrom is just hype like Lost World was.

    ---------- Post added 04/29/2011 at 01:51 PM ----------

    Don't get me wrong, I like the new format a lot but there is going to be little to no setup at all. Just play big 120 hitter. Pachi and skymin 120 in your face. If the Zekrom player goes first, there is nothing much player 2 can do if they get going because they have to wait a turn to evolve and or play Rare Candy, which puts a limit on what can be played.

    Stage 2 pokes will just collect dust in binders because they are too slow.
  20. eriknance

    eriknance New Member

    Here are a couple of posts I've made concerning the initial HGSS-on format: here and here.

    Infernape initially was a lot like Zekrom. It could donk, and many players felt threatened by it. People found a counter to it though in Empoleon, and soon enough Infernape just disappeared. The issue isn't whether or not a deck can pull off a donk (though Sabledonk's quite an exception), it's whether a deck can last. The beginning of Diamond and Pearl had a bunch of really lame decks like Turn 2 Kricketune, Mario (Machamp/Lucario), Blissey/whatever, and Empoleon... all of which had pretty much 0 Poke-Powers save one here or there. By the time those decks were popular, Infernape was gone.

    vaporeon, you actually bring up a very good point but you seem more pessimistic about it than anything. HGSS-on is so much better than MD-on, but even it has a few flaws here or there. The lack of setup is apparent, just like when Diamond and Pearl was getting started. But there are a lot of interesting Poke-Powers out there that make an HGSS-on format come to life. I also happen to think that down the road Zekrom and Reshiram will fall away. Better cards will come, and even now we have good counters. Being in line with Japan helps guarantee that we don't go through another Gardevoir/Gallade season as well.

    Again, my only true fear is Pokemon Catcher. I'm glad to see it excluded from our first Black & White set, but I won't be happy if it never sees a release outside of Japan (even if I don't like the card, I still think we should stick to Japan's format card for card).
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