Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Why Phione is weak and overhyped...

Magic_Umbreon

Researching Tower Scientist, Retired
To be honest, I don't understand what all the hype about Phione is all about at all.

Phione's attack is an enviable one, to "ascend" anything on your bench to a higher evolution stage from your deck. The idea being to put down basics and save on resources so you can draw into energy and stadiums or something instead of wasting celio's or bebe's early on.

However, I think this is just the surface. Phione has its flaws, flaws I believe prevent it from being an unrivalled staple or in other words "broken".

First, Phione can only evolve one pokémon at a time and this is at the cost of an attack. Much better than doing 10 or something small indeed but nonetheless spending more than two turns without damage is not ideal. It also requires you to pull other resources using other means. Which brings me to my next main point: starting hand.

Using phione mid or late game is just giving up a prize as your opponent will no doubt have the pokémon out to do 60 damage. So, Phione's usefulness lies in the opening of the game where your army is developped. However, there is a flaw in this, too. In order for Phione to successfully open your game, your starting hand must contain:

  • Phione itself. If not, the Phiones in your deck are wasted space and searching/retreating is slow and ugly.Phione itself. If not, the Phiones in your deck are wasted space and searching/retreating is slow and ugly.
  • An energy. Simple, but it's still another card you can't pull off the T1/2 Phione without.
  • An evolvable basic pokémon for Phione's attack to be used on.
  • Enough resources drawn into or in opening to "push the setup". Evolving isn't enough if for example you have an energy or supporter drought. You need to push the setup with the right energy and more basic to evolve. Now, something like Claydol or Gardevoir anything that Phione can setup to setup is a major consideration. However, this extends the turns until you actually have a good attacker ready.

While each factor in the list is no major consideration, getting all of them (and all are necessary) doesn't look hugely consistent - at least not by turn 1 or 2. Which brings me to my next point:

Turn 2 or 3 attackers. Along with Phione come a slew of new pokémon. The included Mewtwo and Eeveelutions are a given in Majestic Dawn and I think look a promising counter to Phione.

Both Glaceon and Jolteon threaten a 2HKO on Phione for a single energy. Jolteon can paralyse on a flip, and on a flip Glaceon isn't bothered by Phione retreating for an attacker or using its second attack (paralysis covers this too). Not that one would play these two just to counter Phione, the Eeveelutions are strong and versatile enough for many variational uses.

Then there is Mewtwo. Its free attack can fuel it quickly if you use the right supporters or retreat/charge as a tech from the deck for a Turn 2 or 3 60 and possibly energies elsewhere. 60 is nice, and unless they are hasty even a leusirely setup of drawing and attaching energies for T3 60 can put early pressure. Because they had to attack to Phione, Mewtwo should be able to damage the pokémon they bring up too. Gardy or other psychics at this point may well not have enough energy to take advantage of the weakness.

Disableye is good against Phione from the start too. In context of 60HP, 10 from Disable is very helpful while all the time excavate is helping.

So those are my reasons for the impact Phione will have, what are yours?
 
Did you use to play when Jirachi was still usable Make a Wish? Yes i agree it is horrible but as everything as a starter but there are ways to get rid of it from your hand like Claydol if you don't want it and there are other things. From what i have seen this card is even better than Jirachi since it doesn't make you take 10 damage when you do it correct? So I guess since i have played for a long time and have seen Dunsparce and Jirachi be sort of playable i think these cards like Pachi and now Phione can be some what playable, I have not tested with it though so ya.
 
Thanks, Id say that by the time Pachirisu. has had an energy and attack/retreat, then Phione has had an energy and attack/retreat you're actually left with no energy anywhere and one evolution when your opponent has 3 energys and 3 attacks available to do >60 and trample Phione attempts for prizes.

That's a more condensed reason than the main post as to why Phione isn't that amazing even with Pachirisu. Deckspace too.

But I do like your ideas of opening up more good starting hands for Phione, it certainly does that.

The lack of 10 self damage is almost no help at all due to the increased damage of pokémon now IMO. I started playing as HL was being rotated, I've never seen an acual Jirachi make a wish card (only scans).
 
I have passed the torch...j/k

You make good points, but 3/4 of those points could have been made with Pachi too, and we can see how just 1 good point (it gets 3 basics or in phione's case, it can evolve a benched pokemon T1) can make the card still really playable.

I think the best thing we can do is just sit back and just watch what the format does. If Phione is really not that great, then people will learn that and not use it. If it's all that and a bag of chips, people will eat that bag of chips.

Never hurts to start a discussion though.
 
It won't be as good as Jirachi HL was when pidgeot was around. Now I'd rather use something else in most of the decks
 
with de-evolution attacks and powers becoming a resurgant part of the game i think it will be rare candy that we see less of. phione won't automatically be the go-to starter in set up decks but it will be another viable option next to furret, pachirisu and stantler.

phione in a porygon z lvl x deck will make for some fast fast starts.
 
umbreon, your an english player, meaning we as english plaayer have much liited knowledge in comparison with some other people. serious, its avery cool card.
 
To be honest, I don't understand what all the hype about Phione is all about at all.

Phione's attack is an enviable one, to "ascend" anything on your bench to a higher evolution stage from your deck. The idea being to put down basics and save on resources so you can draw into energy and stadiums or something instead of wasting celio's or bebe's early on. Actually, you can now use a Ceilio's for a Kirlia, then Make a Wish it into a Gardevoir. It's a T2 Psychic Lock. Or, if in a Stage 1 deck, you can just Ceilio's for 1 Evolution, then Make a Wish a different Pokemon. Now you've 2 Stage 1s set up.

However, I think this is just the surface. Phione has its flaws, flaws I believe prevent it from being an unrivalled staple or in other words "broken". Same with any card.

First, Phione can only evolve one pokémon at a time and this is at the cost of an attack. Much better than doing 10 or something small indeed but nonetheless spending more than two turns without damage is not ideal. It also requires you to pull other resources using other means. Which brings me to my next main point: starting hand. So, your arguement is that it takes more resources to just get Energy then getting Energy AND Evolving? At least with Phione you don't have to use Ceilio's for the Evolution, just Make a Wish for it.

Using phione mid or late game is just giving up a prize as your opponent will no doubt have the pokémon out to do 60 damage. So, Phione's usefulness lies in the opening of the game where your army is developped. However, there is a flaw in this, too. In order for Phione to successfully open your game, your starting hand must contain: Yeah, you quickly Evolve a Benched Ralts to Kirlia, next turn, they KO you, then you Evolve Kirlia to Gardevoir. Now you can Plox them.

  • Phione itself. If not, the Phiones in your deck are wasted space and searching/retreating is slow and ugly.Phione itself. Pachirisu? That has the same problem... and look how popular it is now.
  • An energy. Simple, but it's still another card you can't pull off the T1/2 Phione without. Again, I must tell you - Pachirisu has the same problem, yet it's the best Starter in the format.
  • An evolvable basic pokémon for Phione's attack to be used on. Playing it with Pachirisu really helps this, and it only takes up the space that Furret uses up. And it's just as fast as Furret too.
  • Enough resources drawn into or in opening to "push the setup". Evolving isn't enough if for example you have an energy or supporter drought. You need to push the setup with the right energy and more basic to evolve. Now, something like Claydol or Gardevoir anything that Phione can setup to setup is a major consideration. However, this extends the turns until you actually have a good attacker ready. Sure, but at least you don't need Ceilio's too. Phione basicly means you don't need Ceilio's. Energy droughts rarely happen in a deck with 16 Energy and 3/4 Roseanne's. And when they do, Special Energy can make up for lost time.

While each factor in the list is no major consideration, getting all of them (and all are necessary) doesn't look hugely consistent - at least not by turn 1 or 2. Which brings me to my next point: So, Pachi doesn't look hugely consistent to you either? Or Furret?

Turn 2 or 3 attackers. Along with Phione come a slew of new pokémon. The included Mewtwo and Eeveelutions are a given in Majestic Dawn and I think look a promising counter to Phione. Then you'll probally already be set up...

Both Glaceon and Jolteon threaten a 2HKO on Phione for a single energy. Jolteon can paralyse on a flip, and on a flip Glaceon isn't bothered by Phione retreating for an attacker or using its second attack (paralysis covers this too). Not that one would play these two just to counter Phione, the Eeveelutions are strong and versatile enough for many variational uses. So, they're going to use resources to KO Phione, and then you Scramble you Gardevoir and Plox them? Or Scramble Gallade and KO them right back?

Then there is Mewtwo. Its free attack can fuel it quickly if you use the right supporters or retreat/charge as a tech from the deck for a Turn 2 or 3 60 and possibly energies elsewhere. 60 is nice, and unless they are hasty even a leusirely setup of drawing and attaching energies for T3 60 can put early pressure. Because they had to attack to Phione, Mewtwo should be able to damage the pokémon they bring up too. Gardy or other psychics at this point may well not have enough energy to take advantage of the weakness. Again, my same point as above. I can then Scramble Gardevoir/Gallade and KO you right back.

Disableye is good against Phione from the start too. In context of 60HP, 10 from Disable is very helpful while all the time excavate is helping. Then I'll just Evolve normally then :)

So those are my reasons for the impact Phione will have, what are yours? Everything I've previously said, and that the possibility of T2 Claydol are even greater now, and that Candy isn't needed as much (still, you should run 2-4).

My input in bold.
 
Actually, you can now use a Ceilio's for a Kirlia, then Make a Wish it into a Gardevoir. It's a T2 Psychic Lock. Or, if in a Stage 1 deck, you can just Ceilio's for 1 Evolution, then Make a Wish a different Pokemon. Now you've 2 Stage 1s set up.
How do you get T2 Psychic Lock? You need an energy attachment to fuel make a wish, then there's the cost of three for Gardy.

So, your arguement is that it takes more resources to just get Energy then getting Energy AND Evolving? At least with Phione you don't have to use Ceilio's for the Evolution, just Make a Wish for it.

You save a prize, as a normal evolved pokémon could take a hit Phione couldn't. Resources for a Phione are explained in more detail as I can see you've read from the comments. My point is a collection of weaker reasons that IMO are collectively strong.

Yeah, you quickly Evolve a Benched Ralts to Kirlia, next turn, they KO you, then you Evolve Kirlia to Gardevoir. Now you can Plox them.

How, when Gardy needs three energy and an energy has already been used on Phione?

Pachirisu? That has the same problem... and look how popular it is now.

Again, it's a small reason but together with all the other reasons is my case. I never said this reason alone justifies it as overhyped.

Playing it with Pachirisu really helps this, and it only takes up the space that Furret uses up. And it's just as fast as Furret too.

I posted about that in response to pichu_rox.

Sure, but at least you don't need Ceilio's too. Phione basicly means you don't need Ceilio's. Energy droughts rarely happen in a deck with 16 Energy and 3/4 Roseanne's. And when they do, Special Energy can make up for lost time.

Even with Phione, lack of Celio's/Bebe's screams "risky play" to me. For one, if you are in a position where they can do 60 as long as something remains in play (e.g. the Gardevoir setup you described - keeps dealing 60 until KOed) then Phione can't attack without scapegoating a prize. Again, small point big when combined.

So, Pachi doesn't look hugely consistent to you either? Or Furret?

Those two do not have as many necessary conditions and can both survive a psychic lock. Sentret without Furret is better than a Phione without an evolvable basic.

Then you'll probally already be set up...

I haven't playtested, I don't know. But not three energy attackers IMO.

So, they're going to use resources to KO Phione, and then you Scramble you Gardevoir and Plox them? Or Scramble Gallade and KO them right back?

Yes, scramble remains a possibility. This is speculative, scramble might end up in high use in Phione decks or not. Great point.

Then I'll just Evolve normally then :)

With the 16 energy and 3/4 Roseanne's? But the Sableye player has a great headstart.

Everything I've previously said, and that the possibility of T2 Claydol are even greater now, and that Candy isn't needed as much (still, you should run 2-4).

Decks without Latilock may fear Kabutops. The turn spent to make Baltoy a Claydol is a turn without an attacker but yes, Phione/Claydol needs specific counters e.g. Glaceon. It's a great combo.
 
People want to play Phione... WITH Pachi??? So, you're going to waste 4-8 deck slots on basic setup Pokemon that are useless after T2-T3? Nice.

Phione>Pachi because Call energy will probably come out, but Pachi wasn't any good anyways.
 
People want to play Phione... WITH Pachi??? So, you're going to waste 4-8 deck slots on basic setup Pokemon that are useless after T2-T3? Nice.

Phione>Pachi because Call energy will probably come out, but Pachi wasn't any good anyways.
Where did you pull that number out of? Most decks will run 1 phione with pachi, just so you are guarnteed a t3 dol. With a 5 energy pachi start (which seems to happen to me wayyy to often), this is just amazing. Its a 1 card "tech" thats used to up consistancy. Simple as that.
 
Some thing you also have to take into account is if you will be facing off against a hyper aggressive deck. Many decks take the first two to three turns to set up themselves before they start attacking. The threat of activating your opponent's Scramble energy and all of a sudden losing that first attacker that you powered up (typical Gallade and Magmortar strategy) can easily put you behind the eight ball because you knocked out their Phione.

As for Sableye; yes it can disrupt Phione, but it can disrupt every other starter as well. It also requires you to expend an energy drop to disable, so you aren't going to gain much in the way of speed when using it.
 
i really doubt that ppl will play pachy and phione in the same deck. more likely you will run phione and call energy or pachi and the tm that lets you search for evolutions. that way your setup starter can do it all.
 
Where did you pull that number out of? Most decks will run 1 phione with pachi, just so you are guarnteed a t3 dol. With a 5 energy pachi start (which seems to happen to me wayyy to often), this is just amazing. Its a 1 card "tech" thats used to up consistancy. Simple as that.

1 Phione with Pachi adds up to either 4 or 5 cards by my math... and both of those numbers are between 4 and 8. I suppose it would work in decks that run a few stage 1's (Mag with Claydol comes to mind), but I'd still steer clear of it. I was half kidding with the 8, but hey, some people are crazy.
 
"How do you get T2 Psychic Lock? You need an energy attachment to fuel make a wish, then there's the cost of three for Gardy."

Warp Point Energy Switch, Rare Candy, and DRE.
 
Pachi+Phione

I play tested a bit with some mock-up cards:

2 Pachi (in case one is prized)
2 Phione (ditto)
2-2 Delcatty (double ditto)
4 Roseanne
4 Celio
4 Felicity (to dump any extra Pachi/Phione/skitty/delcatty along with energy)
3-2-3 line of the new MD Infernape
3-2-3 line of Typhlosion
4 Rare candy
2 Night Maintenance
18 fire energy

Normally, 2 stage twos in a focused deck like this is just asking for slow-start death, and it does consistently lose the first 2-3 prize cards (the night maintenances are key) before getting set up and roaring back against straight GG (not PLOX) and MagPhlosion. Probably not the best build, but the Pachi/Phione combination work wonders in a deck that would otherwise be unplayable (BTW that new Ape is impressive...)
 
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