Wizards.Com Boards: The need for speed

my profile | search | faq | all boards index

»	Wizards.Com Boards » Deck Help and Strategy » The need for speed - a quest.

Author

Topic: The need for speed - a quest.

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 05, 2002 08:33 PM

Hi guys. My son and I have been playtesting the heck out of a lot of different decks in preparation for Worlds. I'll make it brief. MMF is too slow - an hour is not enough for 3 games/match.
The 3 game match is ok as long as one or more of 3 criteria is met -
(1) one of the players is lousy
(2) The deck is really bad
(3) 2 bad starting hands.
We need some speed ideas. The classic methods for speed used to be:
(1) Violating the 1 energy per turn rule (Raindance, Downpour, DCE)
(2) BBP's with cheap attacks (Electabuzz, Hitmo, Sneasle)
(3)Stage 1's with incredibly cheap broken attacks (Wiggly, Clefable)
(4) Nuke the other guy and slow him down (ER/SER, Aerodactyl)
Most of the real powerhitters in MMF require 3 energy minimum for their decent attacks. Since they typically are stage 2's why bother with Breeder to speed things up since you'll take 3 turns to get 'em powered (well yeah there are times breeder helps - but never before turn 3). Most stage 1 powerhitters require 3 to 4 energy to do their thang - and if they have a really good attack then their basic inevitably sucks lemons - can't do squat.
So it seems like most games require evo's (a good thing IMHO) but that requires (a) time to build up evos (more Pokemon = less trainers)(b) More energy required = less trainers. Plus with Cleffas and other babies running around it tends to drag the game out a lot (especially if it's a promo Iggly with a focus band and steel energy). I pray that some insane trainer does not play a freaking damage swap with Alakazam - that will be a one game match.
I'm open to ideas - or am I being blind here?

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

IPGeek21

Member # 184

posted July 05, 2002 11:21 PM

I am a little confused because MOST of the proposed changes ARE NOT MF2 compatible.

I personally do not think MF2 is slow:

Cleffa+
4 Elm
4 Bill
4 Mary/Bill's Teleporter
4 Trader
4 Boss Way
+ Breeder.

The drawing power is there (trader is awesome)... my thoughts are on FAST hitters or status effects or decent effects (energy removal built in)

ANYONE playing damage swap IMO WILL not win BUT then again may give you NO CHANCE to win either =/

Who can OHKO, this decks will be played; as much as I like rogue Archetypes are the 1st types to try out...

PS The best tip in MATCH play is CONCEDE if time is running out, OTHERWISE the match may end in a draw if there is NO TIME for that 3rd and decisive match (which may mean FAST hitters will be the DECKs to play)

[ July 05, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]

--------------------
Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
*TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof*
+GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo
-=-=-=-=-=-
TheCompendium
Team Random
Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11
ipgeek21.com
SHUT UP & DO something about it

From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

mercad
Member
Member # 22435

posted July 06, 2002 02:01 AM

yes true that the speed of wrath is gone, but what do u think they made 3 good (i say good in a half Wow manner) draw cards from LC... i actually am suprised that they made these cards...

1) Bill (nice card but there are better... still nice)
2) Breeder (wowie, im a little mad that they reprinted this giving to quick of games)
3) Trader (personally, i dun like the card that much, but will i use it.... hmmmmm.... YES)

not only that but genisis and revelation (mostly genesis) made nice draw cards

as for the one energy per turn rule, has any1 else here heard of Entei, I know i sure have

now for cheap attacks, in MF there were no cheap attacks, u need to evolve to get those [Razz]

, they do have some fast stage 1s though, not all are usuable, but u know what, we here say breeders for every1

as for nuking, i have only got 2 decks that can do that

1- Mr. Slowking, S....L...O....W...KING! uses his ability to S....L....O....W down trainers allowing u to run free killing whom u wish

2- A new card that i think has the capibility to win, just needs fast and strong back up, Dark Omastar, along with his fun devolved friend Dark Omanyte that damages any1 on your opponets pokemon, u can take any evolution down, this is a great startagy, hit one of your feared, or soon to be feared, opponets pokemon for 20, do it again, then evole and start shuffling his evolutions of this pokemon into his deck, if played with NR Areodactyl, u can continue to use dark omanytes attack destroying your opponets pokemon even though it has evolved

also a good "nuker" is Dark T-Tar... IF u can get him going u can use fling away (which i found is better than mountain smasher) and moutain smasher for heavy amounts of damage and with the effect of Dark T-Tar's mountain smasher win the game quickly

--------------------
Team Delibird Co-Leader

"Don't be touching your little delibird"

Buk Buk

Merc: Gengar dont make me pull out the big guns
DMTM: NO! don't he's my friend
Gengar: GENGAR!
Merc: Ok! Go DELIBIRD!
Delibird: Deli... Delibird
Merc: Delibird use present!
Delibird: DELI!
Gengar: ?_?
Gengar: GENGAR!
DMTM: Looks like were blasting off again

From: Rancho Cucamunga, California, United States | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 06, 2002 05:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by IPGeek21:
I am a little confused because MOST of the proposed changes ARE NOT MF2 compatible.

I personally do not think MF2 is slow:

Thanks for the replies guys but....
See the Professor under my name? Notice that we're prepping for Worlds? Of course I've heard of magcargo - matter of fact I was one of the first to post here on using it with Feraligatr.
Maybe I didn't get the drift of the message across. I've coordinated two tourneys using the MMF format plus played it exclusively for 4 months now. I tried limiting games to 20 minutes (60/3 = 20) and it just didn't work. I had to put the length back to 30 minutes as maybe one or two trainers were finishing matches in 20 minutes or under. In our at home games we find the same thing. Ever since DMTM announced the 3 game match format we have been playing it. We'll be darned lucky to get in 2 games and start on a 3rd.
So....
We've play tested most of the (eech I hate the word) archetypes such as Kingdra, EnCargo, Feraligatr, Meganium, D Blastoise, Typhlosion - you name it. I even try some of the funky decks that some folks post that show some novelty.
To my mind the best speed card introduced in LC was Trader. Now that was a good addition to the game - I usually play at least 3 in any deck. The Bosses Way is a great search card but only good with Dark Pokemon which suffer from a dependancy on Rockets Gym and low HP.
I'm looking for speedups that I haven't thought about yet - tricks if you will, combos that work. We're still open to exactly what deck we'll be playing - maybe a couple of rogue decks we've created - but you guys are pretty creative and I just wanna know what you've been using since you don't find MMF too slow...

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

IPGeek21

Member # 184

posted July 06, 2002 07:38 AM

Sorry no secrets... Actually I have FEW/to one to share [Frown]

I think MF2 did it... I think it did strike some gold. AS much as FIRE is the type to beat I think a solid water deck can bring it down (but i am finding them so boring to play)

I still have not tested as much as I would like...

I understood how much experience you have in your testing (oops I read wrong, my apologies).

MATCH play is going to bring another type of strategy YOU are right THERE will barely be enough time for 3 matches. Be the 1st to win 2, no problem... go 1-1, yeah start sweating it...

MY next set of testing will comprise of Stage1's...

[ July 06, 2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]

--------------------
Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
*TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof*
+GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo
-=-=-=-=-=-
TheCompendium
Team Random
Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11
ipgeek21.com
SHUT UP & DO something about it

From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

rigamortistortoise
Member
Member # 66482

posted July 06, 2002 08:19 AM

promo scyther
mantine
murkrow
.....are all very fast

--------------------
AIM me @six6wectb

York member

Proud to be ROGUE!!!

From: outside of the box........ | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged

Prof. Douglas Zuver

Member # 91104

posted July 06, 2002 03:19 PM

I just started this deck 2 days ago, so it
is not fixed up very well, but...
The idea is simple. The last tournament I went
to was mostly Fire and Water with a weakness to
electricity.

"Periscope Up" Deck

4 Lanturn Neo 3 (Pokemon Power Submerge-makes
Lanturns type water. Now you can hit fire or
water (except Gator) for double damage.)
4 Chinchou (Neo 3 or Neo)
2 Dodrio LC or Jungle
3 Doduo Base or LC
3 Cleffa
2 Elekid
4 Bill
4 Professor Elm
4 Pokemon Trader
4 EXP.All
3 Focus Bands
3 Gold Berry
1 Time Capsule
1 Double Gust
18 Electric Energy

I made this deck up for fun, not a tournament.
EXP.All worked fairly well though.
Just think before you use it.
Somebody will probably find something other
than Dodrio to put in there. And Elekid should
come out too. More speed means Mary or
Bill's Teleporter put into the deck.
Somebody is going to lower that energy a lot.
Recycle would be nice. Lanturn does not need
much electricity. The idea is that you can
do 60 damage with a flip for confusion on
a lot of the pokemon out there.

================================================

If you added Ponyta/Rapidash LC, you could
maybe get away with 2 colors in your deck,
because neither pokemon set is really picky
about what kind of energy it takes.
This would give you Agility and 60 damage vs.
Steelix.

"Elemental Fountain" deck

3 Lanturn Neo 3
4 Chinchou
2 Rapidash Jungle or LC
3 Ponyta Base or LC
4 Cleffa (quick starts)
2 Aipom Neo 3 (Grab Focus Band)

4 Mary
1 Time Capsule
4 Bill
4 Professor Elm
4 Pokemon Trader
3 Focus Bands
3 Gold Berry
3 Double Gust

2 Recycle Energy
7 Fire Energy
7 Electric Energy

================================================

Here is a very good deck that I have
playtested a lot:
(Except for Mew Promo 47. I have
been using Mew Promo 9)
Snorlax shuts down Dark Gengar.
Time Capsule Shuts down Dark Haunter.
Radio helps me decide what I want to
do next-draw cards or be patient.

"Mew and Friends"

4 Espeon Neo 2 HOLO
4 Eevee Neo 2
2 Snorlax LC or Jungle
2 Mew Promo 47
4 Cleffa Neo
4 Bill
4 Pokemon Trader
4 Professor Elm
4 Double Gust
4 Focus Band
3 Gold Berry
2 Radio Tower
1 Time Capsule
14 Psychic Energy
4 Recycle Energy

[ July 06, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Prof. Douglas Zuver ]

--------------------
"A pokemon's true power is found within."--Mew (Pokemon the First Movie)

From: Fort Pierce, Florida | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 06, 2002 07:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rigamortistortoise:
promo scyther
mantine
murkrow
.....are all very fast

Actually I tried the crazy Dodrio/Mantine/Scyther deck and it wasn't too bad - and it *is* pretty quick - also takes care of 3 types - fighting,fire and certain other fighting that are weak to grass. This deck actually inspired some ofthe kids at League to drag out/buy LC to use some of the "old" cards.
But... kinda dependant on getting Dodrio out and it only takes care of 1 of the energies for the Mantine to retreat. So... with a deck running 2 energy types piddling away one per turn can eat at you pretty quick - PLUS you have to get at least two Poke's powered to run the tag-team match so it will take you 4 turns to get the clock running. I'd rather use a Donphan deck which I can get going turn 3. My holy grail is to try and get some serious (30+) damage by turn 2 and keep it up.

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 06, 2002 07:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by IPGeek21:
Sorry no secrets... Actually I have FEW/to one to share

BTW IP - see ya at Worlds I hope - did your bro's get an invite? You guys (Team Compendium) never did post that group shot I made for ya - get PokeSensei on the move - man that was last year!

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 06, 2002 07:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Prof. Douglas Zuver:
I just started this deck 2 days ago, so it
is not fixed up very well, but...

Actually try the Genesis Lanturn (Hydroelectric power) with Dark Octillary. Great combo as you can keep stacking energy on the Lanturn and make him a real powerhouse! Dark Octillary with WDD energy can deal out 60/turn damage. I think my deck went something like... (don't count on the s adding up)

4 Cinchou
4 Lanturn (genesis)
4 Revelations Remoraid
4 Dark Octillary
3 Cleffa

2 Bosses Way
2 Trader
4 Elm
3 Bill
3 Super E Retrieval
2 Rockets Hideout Gym
3 Double Gust
3 Focus Band

4 Darkness
6 Lightning
9 Water

Dark Octillary is a vastly underrated card for a common. Course there's always Tyrogue to mess things up...

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 06, 2002 08:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mercad:
...also a good "nuker" is Dark T-Tar... IF u can get him going u can use fling away (which i found is better than mountain smasher)

I've been playing with this bad boy and he's pretty mean and a good breeder candidate (a stage 2 that EVERYTHING under it sucks!) Fling away is like having 2 Umbreons in action at the same time. I do wish I had a choice in the 50/30 matter tho... [Wink]

I do like him because I can get him (Bosses Way) and Breeder him turn 2 and he can start hurtin 'em. He shares a burden with Feraligatr tho - Crobat.

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

mercad
Member
Member # 22435

posted July 06, 2002 11:53 PM

i also was thinking of dudrio/promo scyther, but since mantine is not able to use his attack again i was thinking of using Farfetch'd (wow never thought i'd say that) can retreat, retreat back and he also has a first attack, also this would allow me to run a 1 energy type deck

Dark T-tar is good, but i just hate having to get him going, at our leauge we have been runing team battle games (recently a couple of non-sanctioned tournies) and breeder was too fast for the game play (due to there being !4! teams [and u guys thought u were being creative] instead of 2) another card that was limited was pichu, zzzzzzap was too strong, 20 to 10 pokemon is not very fun for the people taking it, also when there were 2 pichus out !40! damage was flat out ****y (i edited that myself too [Smile]

) GL just allowed breeder again so i MIGHT rebuild my dark T-Tar (just gotta get my deck from friend who has had it since *thinks* *gets angry* JUNE 8TH!!!)Overall i think he is to slow but he is a BIG NUKER

as for entei/cargo many people thought of that, but for Gatr, that was an original deck, that i myself never would of thought of (especially trash exchange)

--------------------
Team Delibird Co-Leader

"Don't be touching your little delibird"

Buk Buk

Merc: Gengar dont make me pull out the big guns
DMTM: NO! don't he's my friend
Gengar: GENGAR!
Merc: Ok! Go DELIBIRD!
Delibird: Deli... Delibird
Merc: Delibird use present!
Delibird: DELI!
Gengar: ?_?
Gengar: GENGAR!
DMTM: Looks like were blasting off again

From: Rancho Cucamunga, California, United States | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 07, 2002 08:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mercad:
i also was thinking of dudrio/promo scyther, but since mantine is not able to use his attack again

Naw - whatcha do is get any two of 'em powered up and then use the dodrio to reduce the retreat cost to let 'em alternate attacks. But - do the math to get two powered up = 4 energies = 4 turns. Actually you can start hitting consistently turn 3 as you can attach the final nrg the 4th turn - so by turn 3 you're doing 40. I can do *that* with Dark octillary and plain old water - drop a couple of darknesses on him and he's doing 40 turn 2 and 60 turn 3. Too bad he needs Rockets Gym realy bad. So.... to make the dofrio thingie work requires way too many cards that can be put to good use elsewhere and a broken ground makes Dodrio useless... it *is* fun tho.

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

invisible
Member
Member # 73074

posted July 07, 2002 05:48 PM

well, if you want speed, i suggest that you look back at the LC for the old 1 energy for 20 damage cards. I had an unlimited deck before that had HitmonChan and Staryu, plus Vaporeon and Wigglytuff for the late game. It finished up games pretty quickly.

It also included card drawers for speed and energy effieciency.

Might want to try it.

--------------------
the darker the surrounding, the clearer a light seems

Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

invisible
Member
Member # 73074

posted July 07, 2002 05:51 PM

And furthurmore, the energy removals and retrievals work great.

[ July 07, 2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: invisible ]

--------------------
the darker the surrounding, the clearer a light seems

Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

mercad
Member
Member # 22435

posted July 08, 2002 01:08 AM

this is for MMF... meaning neo on... sorry no removals in dat

ad for the 4 turn thing... thats not cool... i want it second turn, and since farfatch'd is third it has a 2nd attack to even it out... plus i dun want to play 2 energy type

--------------------
Team Delibird Co-Leader

"Don't be touching your little delibird"

Buk Buk

Merc: Gengar dont make me pull out the big guns
DMTM: NO! don't he's my friend
Gengar: GENGAR!
Merc: Ok! Go DELIBIRD!
Delibird: Deli... Delibird
Merc: Delibird use present!
Delibird: DELI!
Gengar: ?_?
Gengar: GENGAR!
DMTM: Looks like were blasting off again

From: Rancho Cucamunga, California, United States | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

BronzeGrowlithe

Member # 66394

posted July 08, 2002 11:01 AM

Hmm...30+ second turn...wow...

Okay, here's what I thought of:

Entei/?: The most obvious choice. Howl first turn, get a Macargo, Ninetails, Arcanine, or something powered up. and go to town next turn. This isn't one of my favorites, since it rarely gets going so quickly and can collapse on itself if it doesn't, but it is powerful so feel free to try.

Revelations Raichu: It can do 40 or 80 second turn with Movie promo Pika.

Neo3 Ampharos: It can do 40 with para or 60 second turn with some other Mareeps, a Static Electicity from the Neo Mareep, and a Pokémon Breeder (chances are that won't happen, though). It can also seriously hurt the popular Kingdra and Dark Blastiose decks. It is a really good card, try it out if you haven't before.

Umbreon: Second turn 40 with 2 Darkness, or 30 with one and some other energy. Get it out quick with Promo or Neo2 Eevee's Powers.

Neo 4 Lanturn: I don't have one handy, but I believe Sparks does 20 with 10 to the bench for 2 Electric. Not sure it's any good though.

Neo 3 Jumpluff: Pokémon Breeder gets you a second turn 30 for 1G. The other attack gets out more just like it.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[ July 08, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: BronzeGrowlithe ]

--------------------
Professor BronzeGrowlithe taps his paw, patiently waiting for replies...

"What a hobby..." -Spike, Cowboy Bebop

5th place-Origins Professor Challenge

From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged

ScythKing

Member # 26665

posted July 08, 2002 06:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BronzeGrowlithe:
Hmm...30+ second turn...wow...

Okay, here's what I thought of:

Excellent summary - thanks.
Entei - for me it's been worse than flipping against a baby. I'm lucky if I get 1 energy out of howl - usually I'm the one howling in pain realizing I've tossed a turn for 1 xtra energy. Actually this card is sort of like Blaine's Magmar. There's an energy threshold that it works best with and it's also best a midgame card when the deck is energy rich. But I have gotten it to work with Magcargo and Gatr.
Jumpluff is good and cheap too. I might just have to drag him out and pair him up with something else to see if I can make it work - awsome ability to get more into play (if they leave him alone). Thanks for reminding me - I'd sorta forgotten him - maybe Bellossom instead.
Revelations Raichu - ah yes - another forgotten friend - I almost traded away the 4 I have. I got my butt whupped good by one of these at WCSTS.
Ampharos - I can't find mine [Frown]

I did have 4 of all the Ampharos but this one has disappeared - probably the deck is hiding somewhere...
Thanks for getting my motor running - I tend to get stuck in a rut and this helped - keep 'em coming!

--------------------
-=>* ScythKing *<=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There are 10 type of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time

Printer-friendly view of this topic