|
Author
|
Topic: Mirage Stadium ruling error?
|
NoPoke
Member # 42315
|
posted May 16, 2003 08:51 AM
With a Mirage Stadium in play the following is the sequence of events when you want to retreat.
1) flip for mirage stadium
2) If heads pay retreat cost and retreat.
Note that the flip comes before paying the retreat cost.
Now look at what happens when a pokemon is confused and tries to retreat.
a) pay the retreat cost
b) flip for confusion check
c) if heads retreat.
so how to combine the two?
i) flip for mirage stadium
ii) If heads pay retreat cost
iii) If confused flip a coin.
iv) If heads retreat.
that seems right as the stadium card has you do things before paying the retreat cost and the confusion check takes place after the retreat cost has been paid.
However that is not the answer given in the chat. ![[Frown]](../tcg/frown.gif) which is either
001) pay retreat cost
010) flip for confusion
010) if heads flip for Mirage Stadium
011) if heads retreat, if tails unwind and get the energy back!
or worse
001) pay retreat cost
010) flip for confusion
010) if heads flip for Mirage Stadium
011) pay the retreat cost again!
100) if heads retreat, if tails unwind and get the last retreat cost back!
Neither of which seems right as the card specifically states that the player who fails a mirage flip doesn't discard any energy. Not that you get the energy back.
I've tried to interpret Mirage Stadium's effect as trigering at the same time as the confusion check but I don't see how this is the case. All I see is the mirage flip taking place before paying a retreat cost and the confusion check taking place after paying the retreat cost.
help!
--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CmonIWanaPLaYa
Member
Member # 101319
|
posted May 16, 2003 09:01 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NoPoke:
1) flip for mirage stadium
2) If heads pay retreat cost and retreat.
Note that the flip comes before paying the retreat cost.
Now look at what happens when a pokemon is confused and tries to retreat.
a) pay the retreat cost
b) flip for confusion check
c) if heads retreat.
so how to combine the two?
i) flip for mirage stadium
ii) If heads pay retreat cost
iii) If confused flip a coin.
iv) If heads retreat.
that seems right as the stadium card has you do things before paying the retreat cost and the confusion check takes place after the retreat cost has been paid.
However that is not the answer given in the chat. which is either
001) pay retreat cost
010) flip for confusion
010) if heads flip for Mirage Stadium
011) if heads retreat, if tails unwind and get the energy back!
or worse
001) pay retreat cost
010) flip for confusion
010) if heads flip for Mirage Stadium
011) pay the retreat cost again!
100) if heads retreat, if tails unwind and get the last retreat cost back! [QUOTE]
I agre with the scenario you gave.. Mirage is a stadium and should take precedence over other status first.. You have to flip for Mirage before trying to retreat, so why do you have to pay the cost and then flip for confusion... are they messing with our minds again?? Someone should point htis out and overrule the ruling...
--------------------
Either, you Pokemon Yes, or you Pokemon no. If you Pokemon Guess So, sooner later, "squish" justa like bug Pokemon!!
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
BJJ763
Member # 158
|
posted May 16, 2003 09:02 AM
Probably more like:
A) Your opponent owns Mirage Stadium - your Confusion first, then Mirage Stadium
1) Pay Retreat cost (if any)
2) Flip to see if successful.
3) If successful, flip for Mirage Stadium. If unsuccessful, nothing more to be done.
4) If successful, Retreat. If not, nothing more to be done.
B) You own Mirage Stadium - Choice is yours on whether to flip for Mirage or Confusion.
1) Flip for Mirage Stadium. Most people will do this first.
2) If successful, pay any Retreat cost. If not, nothing more to be done.
3) Flip for Confusion.
4) If successful, Retreat. If not, decide if you feel like attacking....
--------------------
Our trade list
Pokémon answers at the Compendium
"We are not purposely trying to mess with your minds." - DMTM
Indentifier of the Magby Rule.
Baton-wielding thug cop.
From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
NoPoke
Member # 42315
|
posted May 16, 2003 09:07 AM
BJJ Mirage Stadium specifically states that if you flip tails then the player doesn't discard any energy. I can foresee players arguing with judges that they get their confusion energy payment back just like it says on the card.
I hate to resort to I'm the judge and what I say goes especially when I can see a valid argument!
Your B is how I think all plays with Mirage Stadium and confused pokemon should go I don't think that there should be a choice as as far as I can see the timing is that confusion comes after paying the retreat cost and Mirage comes before.. ie they never happen at the same time.
[ May 16, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
BJJ763
Member # 158
|
posted May 16, 2003 09:50 AM
The not having to Discard energy is only for the Mirage Stadium flip, not for the whole "Can i Retreat process?". For Confusion flip, you must pay the energy cost before flipping.
The scenarios i posted come from the "Who owns the Stadium card play?" ruling that has been used since Slowking/Chaos Gym. You own it, you flip for whatever effect you wish to first; your opponent owns it, you flip for your effects, then your opponent's.
There MUST be a Japanese ruling about this...
--------------------
Our trade list
Pokémon answers at the Compendium
"We are not purposely trying to mess with your minds." - DMTM
Indentifier of the Magby Rule.
Baton-wielding thug cop.
From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
DOMCGI
Member # 20344
|
posted May 16, 2003 02:06 PM
I believe that we require defination of the following:
1. Is the “doesn’t discard Energy” mean Mirage flip before the “pay retreat cost” step? or is it just a special effect of the whole retreat process ?
2. Is “Pay retreat cost” and “Confuse flip” are 2 separate steps?
There are a lot of room on how to explain the above, but the most natural answer is “doesn’t discard Energy” mean the flip are before the “Pay retreat cost” step, and “Pay retreat cost” and “confuse flip” are 2 separete steps.
So I prefer “Mirage flip”, “Pay retreat cost”, and “Confuse flip” are 3 separate step, and always in this order no matter who own the Mirage Stadium.
--------------------
An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SteveP
Member # 14743
|
posted May 16, 2003 03:26 PM
Interesting... This definately needs a ruling. IMO, there's three ways to look at this:
1. Who-owns-what determines the order of actions (like BJJ's interpretation).
2. Global-vs-local precedance. Global (stadiums) takes precedance over local (special conditions) effects.
3. Timing. The stadium can prevent the whole retreat process (kind of like the baby rule can prevent the whole attack process). Confusion DOESN'T prevent the whole retreat process, just like it DOESN'T prevent the whole attack process.
So, which one is it? ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif)
[ May 16, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
--------------------
Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
WizPog_Chrisbo
Member # 116194
|
posted May 16, 2003 06:09 PM
Well, here's what they had to say about this yesterday: quote:
== MIRAGE STADIUM (Skyridge Expansion)
Q. If a confused pokemon attempts to retreat while Mirage Stadium is in play, do you flip for Confusion first or flip for the Mirage Stadium first?
A. This one is going to come down to who controls the stadium. If your opponent does, you will have to check for your Confusion retreat first because when two events happen at the same time, the active player's effects go first. If you controlled the stadium, since they both trigger at the same time and you control them both (in this example), you would choose the order of their effect. (May 15, 2003 WotC Chat, Q1573)
Carry on,
- CHRISBO
--------------------
-- Moderator, Wizards' PokéGym (aka "WizPoG")
-- Head Judge (11-14), West Stadium Challenge, 2002
-- Tournament Judge, World Championships 2002
-- Tournament Judge, Super Trainer Showdown 2001 (East & West)
-- Founding member of Team Compendium.
From: Orange County, CA | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrGrass
Member # 166
|
posted May 16, 2003 07:07 PM
This is ridiculous. The stadium and confusion effect retreating at different times. The stadium comes before the energy discard and confusion comes after. The effects don't happen at the same time so there's no control issue.
--------------------
"They possess armor that explodes on impact." He-Man action figure commercial
"This is so good it just has to be fattening." Stewy from The Family Guy
AIM: SpectreX0
Yahoo: Shiny_Psyduck
From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SteveP
Member # 14743
|
posted May 16, 2003 11:06 PM
Chrisbo, thanks for the Chat Log quote.
McGrass, I see this as a Cost-Action issue. Mirage Stadium and Confusion are two SEPARATE effects that alter the cost of the retreat action. Trying to combine those effects into one is a mistake. You MUST resolve one effect COMPLETELY before you can resolve the next effect.
IMO, I think the ruling is correct and consistant.
--------------------
Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
NoPoke
Member # 42315
|
posted May 17, 2003 12:34 AM
Take the point at which you discard the energy as payment of the retreat cost as an event in time.
Mirage flips before,
Confusion checks after.
Like I've indicated I don't see how they happen at the same time. Its not a matter of who controls what. even if you say both effects trigger at the same time, they resolve in a specific sequence determined by the card text and rules text. There is a definate BEFORE and AFTER
SteveP I'm not saying that you are wrong but what about the following scenario that I outlined.
I'm confused and pay the retreat cost.
I flip tails on the confusion check.
I flip for Mirage and get tails
I return my retreat cost as mirage says that I don't discard on a tails flip.
even though I can see how to argue that they are separate attempts to retreat, I'm then stuck because I'm sure there are other examples within the compendium where events once triggered have to resolve even if the original trigger is removed. Guess I need to get the Magnifier out and use it on the compendium again LOL. (Unless someone beats me to it)
Now where did I leave my photographic memory....
[ May 17, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Onix95
Member # 103241
|
posted May 17, 2003 01:31 AM
If you think about it, the ruling isn't forcing you to do the confusion check first, though it would have been better if they made it so that you'd have to flip for the Mirage Stadium first, I doubt anybody would flip for confusion first anyway...
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
NoPoke
Member # 42315
|
posted May 17, 2003 08:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Onix95:
If you think about it, the ruling isn't forcing you to do the confusion check first, though it would have been better if they made it so that you'd have to flip for the Mirage Stadium first, I doubt anybody would flip for confusion first anyway...
er yes it is! If you are confused and its your opponents Mirage Stadium.
--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
