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Author
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Topic: To announce the attack or not anounce the attack...
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted December 03, 2002 10:04 PM
Well, currently at our tournaments, we've been having a problem with people starting to complain that their opponent did not announce an attack during their battle, here's a situation:
Player A has a Seel with 20 HP left, and Player B has a Rocket's Zapdos with 4 Lightning Energy, and 40 HP left. Player B just says "Knock Out" and doesn't say the name of an attack. Player A then calls a judge complaining about the situation.
Our current rules on this is that if your opponent just says Knock Out or something similar with out announcing an actual attack, the player recieving the attack gets to choose which attack was used IF the attacking Pokemon has more than one attack that could knock out the defending Pokemon, and if it has enough energy. We currently aren't running DCI tournaments, but we're getting there, so I need your input and help on this.
In this situation, and our rulings, Player A gets to choose between Rocket's Zapdos' two attacks, and gets to choose its second one which in turn, knocks Rocket's Zapdos out too.
I know it doesn't seem right, but its something everyone here agreed upon for the time being. What I need to know is whether or not to apply any penalties if Player B did and did not draw a prize, and what attack is determined to be used. I am currently trying to get them used to calling out their attacks rather than saying stuff like just "Knock Out".
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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Big_Pappa_Poke
Member # 3495
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posted December 03, 2002 10:21 PM
I will only speak to the DCI situation.
The rules state that you must name your attack, period. Granted, the REL level is normally one (though I have run hihger in the past). It would be a procedural error to simply say "knock out," minor if the pokemon has only one attack, possibly major in the case of the Rocket Zapdos. That situation should be correctable if the next player hasn't gone through his turn (which, if it is brought up as a problem, s/he probably hasn't), so I believe the attacking player would get a caution and have to name the attack if it is ruled minor. Probably a warning if major.
It happens all of the time at our league/battlezone, even during DCI tournaments. I usually don't make a big deal about it unless it is brought to my attention, then I usually remind EVERYONE about it, so it doesn't come up again.
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From: Portsmouth, OH, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 04, 2002 07:10 AM
With REL 1 (at which just about every Pokemon Tourney should be run) a warning would be the most that should be applied for a first offense. The player should get to name their own attack. I don't see letting the opponent make that choice for them.
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Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted December 04, 2002 09:38 AM
I encounter this problem a lot on-line. It just gets worse if there is a flip involved. All of the sudden, a person flips a coin and says "KO". This is really annoying if I am in a situation where a) I have an active Baby Pokemon and b)there is a Stadium that rquires a flip for its effect in play. Since most of my decks involve these two aspects, I get tired of a person flipping, then if the result is tails, the say it was for the Stadium, then try and attack. If the result is heads, they claim it was for the Baby Rule. ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif) Officially, you are supposed to specifically name an attack, as Big_Poppa_Poke said.
Pokepop: Honestly, I rather like this idea, at least for repeated offenses. This is a very bad habit to get into, and as mentioned above, can be used to cheat in the poper circumstances. It seems that "the punishment fits the crime".
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 04, 2002 10:04 AM
Well, you're bringing up a slightly different problem: That of flipping and then declaring what the flip was for.
I'd be harsher on that. I'd toss all flips out altogether if what they were for was not declared.
Declare, then flip.
Otherwise, it was a "practice flip" ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
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Registered: Feb 2001
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White Gryphon
Member # 61819
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posted December 04, 2002 10:11 AM
I wouldn't let some kid get away with that... Declare, then flip. Declare, then attack. Just hope that you get there before they move any cards around, because THAT can be a problem to clean up.
"Now, how many cards did you have attached to that Zapdos before you attacked?"
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From: Dogwood Town, Jojan | Registered: Jan 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted December 04, 2002 06:32 PM
It's TOTALLY WRONG to allow your opponent to choose your attack, every if you forget to name your attack.
Generally, when someone complains to me that their opponent failed to announce an attack, I look at the situation to determine if anything needs to be done. Most any player certainly won't do an unnecessary attack that is going to hurt them. In your Rocket's Zapdos case, if the player says "Knockout" and the defending Pokemon can be KO'd with 10-20 damage (20-40 if weak), why argue? Likewise, if someone just used Rocket's Hitmonlee's cross-counter against Rocket's Zapdos and Hitmonlee has 10-20 HP left, why would someone think the player would unnecessarily use R-Zap's second attack?
Personally, I'd be hard-pressed to give anyone even a warning for such a minor violation. Like others have stated, it's such a common error. Because it's so common, it has practically become acceptable.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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bulbasnore
Member # 703
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posted December 04, 2002 11:40 PM
I don't like to be a stickler, but most players do shortcut the rules. Just saying knockout, is going to get a caution from me, just because of the 'confusion', unintentional or otherwise, it can cause. I'd look at the situation, and assess what the impact is, before going higher.
But consider, what if they were thinking 'Burn in this case? What is the role of errors in play in W/L record? HUGE, is it not?
So, in this case, I'm probably going to also discuss this with the whole group before the start of the next round and say something like:
"Folks, you must state your attack, not just the result. You can't use the attack until you name it, and you should remind your opponent not to take further action until the attack is used. That means no placing counters, taking a prize or doing between turn actions. The reason is 1) that is the rule for the way you attack and 2) this can affect the outcome of the match. If your opponent has trouble understanding this, raise your hand and I'll come by and explain."
There are other 'shortcuts' that players take routinely that can affect the game outcome: not turning cards for status, 'flush-attaching' energy and trainers to pokemon, etc.
Good luck with moving your tourneys to DCI sanction!
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From: Where you play a kid's game and never T8 in it! | Registered: Feb 2001
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted December 05, 2002 12:41 AM
Well, thanks all for your input, and I'll get the ruling active asap. As for our ruling, it was a ruling that everyone there agreed upon for the time being, and the situations of attacking was much worse than what I described.
One example would be: Player B in the above situation says "Knock Out" then before doing anything else, realizes that he/she forgot to do something during that turn, and says that they didn't declare their attack.
But anyway, thanks for the input, and I hope our league gets petter.. heh
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted December 05, 2002 01:24 AM
bulbasnore, I certainly would respect your authority and decisions about "attack naming" if I were playing at your tournaments. The way I look at it, either you decide to enforce it for everyone (little kids included) or not at all. Under the Penalty Guidelines, the first time you give a caution, the second time a warning, third time a game loss, fourth time a match loss, and finally a disqualification.
Furthermore bulbasnore, you've got to realize, as Onix pointed out what happened at his tourneys, if you make a ruling like, "You get penalized if you don't name your attack," then what's the proper penalty (besides game/match losses)? You certainly can't do what some poor judges I've seen do such as, 1) the opponent gets to choose the attack, 2) the turn ends without an attack, or 3) the attack phase never started so the attacking player gets to go back and do pre-attack actions.
Listen, for an error to be considered a Minor Procedure Error, it MUST cause some level of disruption in play. In almost every case where someone says "knockout" instead of the attack, there's NO disruption; therefore, no infraction.
Come on everyone, if I have to enforce this rule, I'm going to have to step in EVERY TIME I see this error occur and give cautions, warnings, then game losses. Do we really want that for such a commonly accepted shortcut? I'd hope not!
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted December 05, 2002 07:47 AM
If either attack get the same result, I always just say "KO" only!!! People I play with also do the same.
But, if the different attck cause different result, I believe we will name the attack.
In the R.Zapdos case, pull an energy card or damage yourselve are big different, I think we will always name the attack.
After reading this thread, I think I should always name the attack and not so lazy.
In my opinion, it is a very small mistake. Pokemon is suppose be a fair and friendly game. We are not try to win the game by catch the opponent's mistake. We should try to win the game by our own skill.
Not naming the attack do not give any advantage to the player. So it is not done by purpose and not cheating.
For me, if it is a causal game, I will just ask my opponent to clearify which attack to be used.
If I am judge of a tournment, I will give a caution and remind the player to name the attack.
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 05, 2002 08:29 AM
In general, you must name an attack whenever attacking a Baby (if the attack involves a coin flip on some level, I will also sometimes tap a coin on the attack to indicate I am using it as well), and should always indicate which attack is being used when it is unclear.
In general it is better to be overly clear than to risk confusing your opponent.
As for penalties, in general as long as both players understand what's going on, you can't really give one out. Until there's confusion over something, I wouldn't do anything.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted December 05, 2002 09:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
In general, you must name an attack whenever attacking a Baby (if the attack involves a coin flip on some level, I will also sometimes tap a coin on the attack to indicate I am using it as well), and should always indicate which attack is being used when it is unclear.
Wait a minute, do you mean before or after the intial "Baby Rule Check". I am in between classes so I don't have anytime to really look it up myself ![[Embarrassed]](../tcg/redface.gif) so I must ask are you sure? I thought this had come up before, that you do not name you actual attack, just your intent to attack, when you flip for the Baby rule. After all, if you get tales, your turn ends, there, without an attack, as the Baby text says, right? I'd appreciate somone clarifying this.
A few other comments I must make: the only reason I like the idea of allowing your oppenent to name the attack if you fail to is that a)in the scenario presented, it has already been agreed upon by all players and b)not naming the attack is a bad habit, and I and my friends have been trying to break ourselves of it. Such a ruling privides much motivation. I would not want to get into this at a major tourney, so i'd rather suffer an abnormally harsh penalty in a minor one to remind me.
Finally, there are a few resons to not allow a person to just say "KO" and then end their turn. First, sometimes the attack may matter, such as the above R. Zappy example. Rememember, its easy to panic, especially in a tournament-I have seen people to many stupid things, such as using an attack with a penatly when they could have used one without a penalty. This is even more important when you factor in other cards and their effects, like thinking youplayed a Plus Power or that they played a Defender.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 05, 2002 09:38 AM
Well... at home, with my Brother, I tend to just say "Knock Out" when ther is only one attack on the Card. However, in the case of a Card with two or more, of course I would always call out loud which attack I will use (unless it is obvious that I can only use one attack, either it is the only one that will KO or only one with enough energy). We gotten so used to each others playing styles that we can pretty much tell which attacks will be used.
However, at Leauge/BattleZone or at Tournies, I always call out the attack, no matter what. Just saying "KO" works just fine if you and your opponent know each other well. But that is not usualy the case at most events. Times that the other oppoenent has done that, I always point out to them to state which attack they are doing before ending their turn (unless its obviously clear)
Like Yoshi mentioned, I would only give out a penalty if I were ever called over due to a player not calling an attack. That has yet to happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Otaku:
Wait a minute, do you mean before or after the intial "Baby Rule Check"... I thought this had come up before, that you do not name you actual attack, just your intent to attack, when you flip for the Baby rule. After all, if you get tales, your turn ends, there, without an attack, as the Baby text says, right? I'd appreciate somone clarifying this.
Well, I usually state the attack I will do before the Baby Flip seeing as it doesn't really matter when you call it. However, the rules do state that you have to call the attack when attacking, and the Baby Flip is the effect of an attack on an active Baby Pokémon. So by those rules, I would just state what the attack is before fliping.
[ December 05, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]
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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Apr 2002
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted December 05, 2002 12:35 PM
For Otaku, the text for Baby Rule is changed on Neo Revelation (please correct me if not Revelation).
If you look at the Smoochum from Revelation, the baby rule is:
If this baby Pokemon is your active Pokemon and your opponent ANNOUNCES an attack ........
All baby Pokemon cards from Genesis and Discovery will be played using the new version of the baby rule.
So after the Revelation released, player have to announce to the attack before flip.
[Edit: I completely agree that naming attack is good. I also will change myself to always name the attack. I just say: not name the attack is not really a big problem. In the R.Zapdos case, you should either see the player search for energy card or place damage counter. If he do nothing, you could ask him which attack he use and resolve the effect. Some player may name the attack but FORGET to resolve the effect. You just have to REMIND them if your do not start you turn yet.]
[ December 05, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: DOMCGI ]
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted December 05, 2002 02:02 PM
I absolutely agree that you SHOULD annouce attacks EVERY time you attack, especially if there are two or more attacks possible. So, the question here is, what judgement do you make when someone calls you over and complains that their opponent said "KO" instead of announcing an attack? Here's what I'd do:
1. Ask the player which attack he meant to use. If he has an answer, it's over. I've done my job and walk away.
2. If he doesn't know what attack he meant to use, I tell him to pick one. If the energy cost is met, once again it's over, and I walk away.
3. If the energy cost is not met, play is backed up to the start of the attack phase and the player either announces an attack he CAN use or passes.
4. Now, I have to ask myself, did this incident disrupt play in any way, shape, or form? If yes, then I ask, who caused the disruption? Personally, I can't see how saying "KO" instead of the attack causes ANY disruption (confusion maybe, but not disruption). So, I look at the complaining person. Is he constantly complaining about players saying "KO" instead of the attack? If yes, then he's causing disruption and I give HIM a caution and tell him that continued complaining will get him a warning, game loss, etc.
So, if you come to the tournaments I judge and constantly complain about someone saying "KO" instead of the attack, you're causing disruption and will probably be cautioned.
[ December 05, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted December 05, 2002 02:56 PM
Heh... I once had the exact same situation come up in a league match.
My opponent had a damaged R Zapdos active, and called out KO, scooping up a prize.
I had no problem with that, because I picked up a prize also!
My opponent protested. What he had failed to notice, however, as that my defending Pokémon had a Metal energy on it, and 20 HP left.
Since the Zapdos could not have knocked the Defending Pokémon out with Plasma (as he had thought he could), and the Zapdos had the energy for Electroburn, then clearly the attack used had to be Electroburn!
BTW... that prize I took was my last! 
Usually though, a smart player will ask: "What attack are you using?" Whenever DCI points are on the line, I insist that people name their attack; otherwise it's no big deal.
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From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted December 05, 2002 03:35 PM
You certainly can't argue with that one Lizard. Good one!
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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scyther428
Member
Member # 22233
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posted December 05, 2002 04:30 PM
A lot of people at my league uses Beedrill(neo2).
And they always put a "Flippy Stadium"(Energy Stadium, Healing Field etc.)
The biggest problem is they never announce what they are doing. For example,
1. They flip tails, then they said they flipped for the Stadium Card.
2. But when it is a heads, they said they use Triple Poison.
3. 1st was tails(Stadium), then 2nd was tails(attack), they said they used Pin Missile, so they flip 3 more times!
Only cheaters CHEAT. They are all ![[Turkey2]](../tcg/graemlins/turkey2.gif) if they play that way.
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From: Kuala Lumpur, Wilayah Persekutuan, Malaysia | Registered: May 2001
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The true lord of the pits
Member
Member # 116764
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posted December 05, 2002 05:39 PM
This doesn't have to deal with this specific situation, but rather announcing attacks as a whole. I saw some people playing poke one time, and 1 had a Cleffa in play, and there was a healing field in play. He was about to use eeeeeeek, but held the "eeeeeee" part without say "k", realizing that he needed that healing field flip. He got to use the flip, because technically, "eeeeeee" is not an attack, while "eeeeeeek" is. So my question is, can you stop in the middle of a word so the attack's effect is negated?
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From: TEXAS... Giddy up! | Registered: Nov 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 05, 2002 05:43 PM
Generally speaking, yes, that is allowable.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted December 06, 2002 12:13 PM
For the cheater mention by scyther428 and if I am the judge, I will do the following:
Since you do not announce what you flip for before the flip, you just flip for nothing. Anounce again and flip again. If you keep flip before announce, I will give you caution/warning/game loss next times. Ha Ha Ha !!!!!
LizardOTC give the greatest joke I ever hear!!
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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