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Author
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Topic: Severity?
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted March 05, 2003 02:12 PM
While playing over AIM, I used Copycat when my opponent had 9 cards. I shuffled my hand into my deck and drew nine, played a Fire Energy and then realized when I "played" Copycat, I had jsut typed it and not actually done it; meaning I shuffled into my deck the Copycat that should have been placed beside my Pokemon before being sent to the discard. Now, I didn't think itw as too big a deal. Just return the fire energy to my hand, then the hand to the deck, remove the Copycat, shufle, and draw the 9 cards reqiuired by Copycat's effect. Since I already knew what was in my deck via Pokemon Trader usage (from earlier in the game), no advantage was gained by my error (I really liked my "error" hand ![[cloud9]](../tcg/graemlins/cloud9.gif) ). I asked my opponent how to proceed. I was a bit surprised at the answer: Prize Swap. Afterall, (at the time) I thought I hadn't altered the game significantly. It was late, so we called the game anyway: after all that time, my opponent had only claimed two prizes (and I one) without a prize swap. Hey, I played a Fire deck other than Encargo against a water deck. Simply put, I was hosed. ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif) Sorry, back to the rsubject at hand. I later brought this scenario up with another Pokemon Professor whose opinions I very much respect. He thought that at the very least a Prize Swap was deserved, if not an atuomatic loss. Why? I had irrevocably altered my deck from its previous state. Since I shuffled with an extra card, drew 9, saw them, removed a from Copycat from the deck, and shuffled my hand back in again, my deck was not back to its orignal state before the error, even if I removed the cards that had been in my hand. So I had basically "shuffled twice". At first I dismissed the arguement, but after thinking about it, I cannot really decide. At first, I didn't think it mattered: the deck composition after my proposed correction (returning my hand and that fire energy, removing the Copycat, and such) since the outcome was a potential configuration of the deck. So I thought I'd ask the people of WizPog (Profs, Mods, and MTs especially ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif) ).
Thanks for your time, let me know if something was not clear.
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Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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professorbix
Member # 76358
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posted March 05, 2003 05:41 PM
i feel that the ruling...(prize swap) would be justified, after all it was an honest mistake and both players knew exactly what happened.
just my opinion though.
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proud parent of the Exton Pa S.B.Z. 10 and under champion
From: lebanon, pa | Registered: Apr 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 05, 2003 11:40 PM
Come on now, a prize-swap penalty for this? Obviously your opponent was trying to take advantage of you.
First and foremost, CopyCat DOESN'T let you inspect the contents of your deck when you shuffle in your hand (minus the CopyCat). If you DID inspect the contents of your deck (in order to go retrieve the CopyCat that was shuffled in by mistake), that error could be considered severe.
Second, your remedy is EXACTLY the remedy any decent judge would rule.
Finally, even though you saw those nine cards, and would most likely draw a different set of nine cards after a reshuffle, the game was NOT rendered unplayable. Sure, you might have gained a slight advantage by seeing those cards, but like you said, you previously played a search card and already had a good idea what was in your deck.
IMO, I would call this error a Procedural Error - Major, give a warning, and unwind as you recommended.
[ March 05, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted March 06, 2003 06:40 AM
To that point, you would have to let your opponent "see" the cards that you drew in error, since you got to see them. For AIM, you'd have to list them out for them.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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bulbasnore
Member # 703
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posted March 06, 2003 07:25 AM
Nice to see a reference to the classification of the error in the rules. That is helpful. Is there any disagreement to the classification as Procedural Error -Major or the appropriateness of warning/unwinding to that class of error?
Off topic - why play over AIM (I guess you're typing in your moves) rather than Apprentice?
'snore
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Pokemon TCG is a game for all ages.
6th Place June 2002 WCSC Professor Draft
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From: Where you play a kid's game and never T8 in it! | Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted March 06, 2003 09:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bulbasnore:
Off topic - why play over AIM (I guess you're typing in your moves) rather than Apprentice?
'snore
...because a lot of people have firewalls that prevent Apprentice from working (so they tell me). I actually was on Apprentice-I just ran a Solitare game, then typed what I was doing into AIM. Also, AIM chat rooms have a command for dice rolls, which is nice (though inferrior to apprentice, of course).
Now, I do want to know how I could retireve the Copcat without looking through my deck (no way to avoid the accidental draw as I realized my mistake after)? If a judge has already been called over, of course I would have them do it. But for future reference, if I had seen nothing in my deck, would it change the severity?
Thank you all for your input. I was hoping maybe DMTM would throw his two cents in... its nice to get any MTs opinion, afterall, and it was his responses on StevenP's recent post on Severe Procedural Errors that kept me flip-flopping on the topic.
This brings up some other things: having played a couple Pokemon Traders during that game, I knew what was in my deck, or rather, I just had to do the math quick and not make any memory errors. Like any good player, I pretty much have my decks (that are currenlty in use) memorized. I also can look at what's in my graveyard whenever. Thus, the contents of my deck are not necessarily unknown. Yes, Prize cards affect this, but in this case I already knew one of my prizes: my only Elekid was not in my deck, hand, or discard (known since that was what the first Trader was for ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif) ), ergo it must be in my prizes. I also had already drawn a prize, leading to only our unknown cards (without bothering to try and calculate them based upon what I just said). I bring this up since I noticed a few people citing the "advantage" I had gained from seeing hose 9 cards from my "error draw". This also leads to another question: can we take notes during a battle? Given the above itwould almost certainly allow me too know my deck content. While using any number of searching cards I could also note the number of most cards (its easier than it sounds), and after a few Traders, it'd probably be 100% accurate. Before anyone posts it, I do not mean writing everything down as I shuffle, just mentally noting the quanitities of cards and when time comes later, jotting it down for future notice. ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif)
One last thing: it was somewhat late when we were playing, and off the top of my head the game had been going to about 45 minutes when this happened-since it was AIM, we were allowing for a lot of extra time. Given that I really can't see this person (who was already winning with 2 prizes drawn to my 1 and a huge type advantage) feeling the need to intentionally over-penalize me.
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Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 06, 2003 10:44 AM
I wouldn't even make you lose your hand.
I would find the Copycat in your Deck I would put it in the discard pile then I would shuffle your deck and give you a Warning for Improper Procedure.
No reason to make you lose your hand.
Did I miss something?
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted March 06, 2003 12:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
I wouldn't even make you lose your hand.
I would find the Copycat in your Deck I would put it in the discard pile then I would shuffle your deck and give you a Warning for Improper Procedure.
No reason to make you lose your hand.
Did I miss something?
DMTM
I am not sure if I mentioned hand loss as a penalty for what I suggested, though in my conversation with a friend and fellow Prof (not the one I played against) he did like to point out the whole "forgetting-to-flip-when-eeeeeeeking-against-a-baby" scenenario and that as such that might be a penalty as well as a prize swap.
Thanks again for the answers to my inital question. Two Profs, two Masters Profs, and DMTM give my arguement a bit more credibility (unless I grossly misread what all of you typed. ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif) Now, if it isn't too much trouble, can someone let me know if note taking is allowed during official, DCI-sanctioned matches? ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
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Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted March 06, 2003 06:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
I wouldn't even make you lose your hand.
I would find the Copycat in your Deck I would put it in the discard pile then I would shuffle your deck and give you a Warning for Improper Procedure.
No reason to make you lose your hand.
Did I miss something?
DMTM
FYI: I am the other player mentioned here. I agree, a full prize swap is too s(making him discard a copycat before plying another), but this works pretty well.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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old man
Member # 28
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posted March 07, 2003 06:45 AM
From the DCI Universal Tournament Rules
28. Taking Notes
Players are allowed to take brief written notes regarding the current match and may refer to those notes while this match is in progress. Players are expected to take their notes in a timely fashion. Players who take too much time will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.
During draft tournaments, players may not take any notes during the draft. Players may not refer to outside notes during the match. This includes notes from previous matches of that day.
Cards in your deck may not have writing on their faces other than signatures or artistic modifications. Modifications may not obscure the artwork so as to make the card unrecognizable. Any modifications that are deemed to be outside notes by the head judge will subject the player of the deck to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.
That should answer your question
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Certified Master Professor (some say I am certifiable) &
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From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted March 07, 2003 05:13 PM
Thanks, oldman. So it would be feasible to take notes in a non-draft match, but ntes from a previous match can't be used. Or I completely misread what you posted. That's happened before...
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Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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