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Author
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Topic: Judgement Calls
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted June 19, 2003 10:06 PM
Now that I've gotten through all my rulings reviews, I've got a few questions about issuing rulings regarding play errors. I know that not every situation can have a set in stone ruling, but I'd like a little guidance advice, especially from you guys and gals that have judged in several major tournaments. I'll try to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) to make it easy.
1. Forgetting to flip when Eeeeeeeking against an opposing baby. What to do when it's caught before the 7 are drawn, after some/all 7 are drawn, the next player has started his/her turn.
2. Forgetting to flip for sleep/char. Caught after the next player draws, during the next player's attack, after the next player's turn.
3. Forgetting to flip for confusion when attacking. When caught during the next player's turn, in particular if the attack KOed a pokemon.
4. Doing more than once anything that can only be done once per turn/per pokemon (Supporters, energy attachment, evolving). Caught during the next players turn and after.
That's it.
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"They possess armor that explodes on impact." He-Man action figure commercial
"This is so good it just has to be fattening." Stewy from The Family Guy
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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted June 19, 2003 10:15 PM
1. Forgetting to flip when Eeeeeeeking against an opposing baby. What to do when it's caught before the 7 are drawn, after some/all 7 are drawn, the next player has started his/her turn.
The critical thing is not if cards have been drawn, but if the hand has been lost into the deck. Once that happens, it is irreversible and the prize swap penalty applies.
2. Forgetting to flip for sleep/char. Caught after the next player draws, during the next player's attack, after the next player's turn.
You remedy the situation if possible (flip and apply results if possible). Penalty would start with caution and move up depending on repeat offenses.
3. Forgetting to flip for confusion when attacking. When caught during the next player's turn, in particular if the attack KOed a pokemon.
That's an irreversible problem. Of course, both players were responsible for catching it. I'm open to other opinions, but I would leave the Pokemon that was KO'd in the discard pile and choose a random card from the players deck to replace the prize that was drawn.
4. Doing more than once anything that can only be done once per turn/per pokemon (Supporters, energy attachment, evolving). Caught during the next players turn and after.
If the hand hasn't been shuffled into the deck, it's easy to remedy. If the hand has been shuffled, discard the trainer, award a prize penalty, because that now gets to unreversible.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted June 20, 2003 10:17 AM
I thought that the key thing that triggers the prize swap penalty is that the deck has been disturbed in an unrecoverable way..
eg
a player has four cards in their hand. They eeeeek forgetting the baby flip, placing there hand ontop or at the bottom of their deck.
A judge gets called. If the judge can satisfactorily reestablish that players hand then their is no need to give the prize swap penalty. Circumstances may dictate that the prize swap is still required but it is no longer mandatory.
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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WizPoG_Pop
Member # 113762
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posted June 20, 2003 10:50 AM
I think we're saying the same thing from a different point of view. It is the hand going into the deck, in an unreversible manner that, that makes the game unrewindable.
Registered: Nov 2002
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted June 20, 2003 11:55 PM
I'm wondering a bit why a prize swap is issued for failing to flip for Eeeeeeek. From what I can tell from the Universal Penalty Guide, under drawing cards, the cards should be shown to the opponent to keep any advantage from being given, and then put the cards back on the deck. But iff the revealing of the cards showed some significant strategical advantage, then a game loss (prize swap) should be issued.
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"They possess armor that explodes on impact." He-Man action figure commercial
"This is so good it just has to be fattening." Stewy from The Family Guy
AIM: SpectreX0
Yahoo: Shiny_Psyduck
From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted June 21, 2003 12:21 AM
It took me a long time to figure this one out too.
if you change the game in some unrecoverable way then you can expect to get a game loss. ref Severe Procedural error. That's the easy bit...'so what', 'my deck is randomised', 'what difference does a shuffle make', 'random is, well, random' I used to think.........
We all know how important top decking can be at times.. so if you disturb your deck what you are effectively doing is changing how the game would have evolved.
Now I view my deck as a random collection of cards, so I struggled with the significance of shuffling the deck. However having played Star Wars tcg, and more recently Magic:tg, the light finally dawned.
Took me ages to understand this. Especially with the massive amount of draw and shuffle within pokémon
...an outside observer knows that the very next card is guaranteed to loose you the game. You misplay and shuffle your deck.. what is the appropriate penalty?...
...when you shuffle and cut, you are effectively making a contract with your opponent. 'I offer to play your deck with THIS PARTICULAR arrangements of cards'. The offer is accepted, and the contract made. So am I allowed to break that contract by changing the order of my deck? The answer is 'NO!'. The penalty is a game loss.
[ June 21, 2003, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted June 21, 2003 12:46 AM
Hm, a valid point. Thank you, NoPoke.
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"They possess armor that explodes on impact." He-Man action figure commercial
"This is so good it just has to be fattening." Stewy from The Family Guy
AIM: SpectreX0
Yahoo: Shiny_Psyduck
From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted June 21, 2003 08:02 AM
Again, it's not just that your deck is reshuffled.
As DMTM has said, randomizing something that is random already is not a major infraction.
The problem is the loss of cards from the hand into the deck. If those specific cards can't be recovered because they were randomized into the deck, THAT is what triggers the prize swap penalty.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted June 21, 2003 08:14 AM
In which case I still don't get it ![[Frown]](../tcg/frown.gif)
under most circumstances loosing your deck into your hand puts you at a severe disadvantage. It seems odd to have such a big penalty for something that normally gives your opponent an advantage. (Doesn't mean that the penalty is wrong btw)
If shuffling when you shouldn't isn't a big procedural error. Then presumably there is an exception to the prize loss penalty when failing to flip for baby rule when using eeeeek if you have no hand... after all you have no hand so its easy to recover 0 cards even from a shuffled deck.
Pop do you have a link to a chat or article by DMTM that I can read? (Hi HO, Hi HO, Its off to the Oracle judge list I go...with a search search search and a read read read HiHo Hi Ho Hi Ho HI HO)
[...time passes...... then suddenly....]
Ah found this....
quote:
113. Procedural Error—Severe
Definition
A severe procedural error occurs when a player performs an unintentional, extremely disruptive action at the tournament.
Example
(A) A player spills coffee on his deck and is unable to play the match effectively.
(B) A player draws from his sideboard and places it into his hand instead of drawing from his deck.
(C) A player loses his or her deck and must find replacement cards.
(D) A player in a Pokémon tournament uses Cleffa's Eeeeeeek attack and shuffles her hand back without flipping a coin per the Baby Pokémon rule.
(E) A player shuffles his deck when it is not appropriate to do so.
I know that (D) is present too but (E) includes (D)
[ June 21, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted June 21, 2003 02:11 PM
Personally, I would not apply the prize swap penalty if no cards were shuffled into the deck.
Anyone else's thoughts on that?
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 21, 2003 03:15 PM
Well, if we were to go by the book, you obviously need to give a prize swap penalty. The question is, do we go by the book?
Of course, it's a rather rare event that no cards would be shuffled in at all. Still, it bears mentioning. Let's take a look at the text under Procedural error-severe:
quote:
A severe procedural error occurs when a player performs an unintentional, extremely disruptive action at the tournament.
So, the question becomes, is this extremely disruptive? It can be, particularly if the player's deck was extremely unfavorable.
Well, the remedy here has to be to shuffle their hand back into the deck. So they really get what they "want"-they're no worse off hand-wise, and they got a free deck shuffle, all for the price of a measly warning (more than likely).
Sorry, but I see a prize swap that needs to be done, simply because without it there is no real penalty-perhaps even the opposite.
[ June 21, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Taichi
Member
Member # 13564
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posted June 21, 2003 05:05 PM
What's a prize swap penalty?
From: Toronto, Ont | Registered: Apr 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 21, 2003 05:08 PM
It's used in place of the game penalty in one-game matches. The offender places an additional prize, the offendee takes a prize.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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WizPoG_Pop
Member # 113762
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posted June 21, 2003 10:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
So, the question becomes, is this extremely disruptive? It can be, particularly if the player's deck was extremely unfavorable.
Well, the remedy here has to be to shuffle their hand back into the deck. So they really get what they "want"-they're no worse off hand-wise, and they got a free deck shuffle, all for the price of a measly warning (more than likely).
Sorry Yoshi, but I just did not follow this example at all.
It sounds like you are saying the hand is shuffled into the deck, but that's not the scenario I posited.
I would give the prize swap penaly also if the deck were not ramdomized (say, by Mind Games) and the shuffle of the deck was in fact altering something more than a randomized deck.
Registered: Nov 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 22, 2003 09:00 AM
quote:
Sorry Yoshi, but I just did not follow this example at all.
It sounds like you are saying the hand is shuffled into the deck, but that's not the scenario I posited.
I said the remedy was to shuffle their hand into their deck. Presumably after shuflling their empty hand into their deck (as you said) they drew 7 cards, did they not?
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 23, 2003 07:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by NoPoke:
In which case I still don't get it
For the part about shuffling, go here. It's a thread I started when, during a causual Modified match, I accidently shuffled the Copycat back into my deck. DMTM answred on it, giving it a bit of weight. I played a fire energy from my "error hand", then realized what I had done. Some of the people I knew thought it deserved a prize swap and so I asked about it here. The long story-short that if an error could be rewound to the point of shuffling, then you haven't actually shuffled twice, just one really long, odd shuffle. Though since I had looked at my "error hand" before realizing the error, I might have earned a penalty for that (I used some search cards so I arleady knew my deck contents... but I digress). Anywy, I hope that helps, since I thought that part of your confusion stemmed from the obvious fact that shuffling at whim is illegal.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted June 24, 2003 12:25 AM
Thanks, Otaku.
I'd do the much then same as DMTM under those circumstances.
You'd get a warning.
The only difference is that I'd take your deck away and remove the 1st Copycat I found without disturbing the deck order.
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
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