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Topic: Gold berry

pokemama
Member
Member # 134884

posted April 20, 2003 12:45 PM

Is it possible to put Gold berry to 40HP Pokemon and it has got 40 damage. Is Pokemon knocked out or can you still use Gold Berry?

Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged

yoshi1001

Member # 825

posted April 20, 2003 12:58 PM

It's knocked out. There's nothing GB can do for a 40 hp Pokemon.

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AIM: yoshi1001

From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

pokemama
Member
Member # 134884

posted April 20, 2003 01:38 PM

Thank you Yoshi.I knew it would be knocked out.It's a very basic rule isn't it?.Why I am asking about this matter is because I heard some kids lost an important match at Gen Con Europe because judges insisted that you can still use Gold berry. In this GEN CON, judgeing was so poor all along.There was a lot of cheating,(somebody was using 6 dark energy)no deck checking,judges were not watching the matches properly unless you put your hand up for advice,prize provided by Wizards mysteriously partly disappeared etc etc.......How can kids compete in a tournament if they can't provide proper judging?I think most of the players have gone home unsatisfied after paying lots of money for tournament.In fact,Wizards have got nothing to do with this GEN CON Pokemon event.I wish it was organised by Wizards.

[ April 20, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: pokemama ]

Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged

NoPoke

Member # 42315

posted April 21, 2003 03:11 PM

For reference this was a triple poisoned pokémon with 10 damage and 40HP. A gold berry was attached.

THE POKéMON IS KNOCKED OUT.

I believe that this arose during team play.

I was head judge and obviously would have ruled that the pokémon was knocked out.

I only found out about this the next day, when listening to some players talking about how they felt cheated.... I was horrified!

As always my first question was 'did you call for a judge?'. In the subsequent debrief both judges on that event said that they were not called. I have no reason to believe that either judge would have made a mistake on that ruling or that either was in fact called. [Frown]

Later when their match was completed both players signed the result slip.

As was stated to the players repeatedly..

Let me say this again

1) If you are unhappy with anything call a judge.
2) If you remain unhappy with the ruling call a judge! It is perfectly reasonable to expect that you both understand and agree with the ruling once it is given.
3) If you are still unhappy CALL THE HEAD JUDGE!!!
4) The Head Judge is the ONLY person who can say that you cannot call a judge to recieve further explanation.
5) Call a Judge if you feel intimidated. Intimidation will will not be tolerated!
6) DO NOT SIGN THE RESULT SLIP IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY. Again only the head judge can force a result.

It is the players responsibility to ensure that the game is played correctly. The judges are there to assist with rulings and questions.

The judges are responsible for and will endeavour to ensure that play procedes in an environment that is fair to all.

The Judges are not there to play the game or to influence its progress.

The event was smaller than previous years and as head Judge I was keen not to interfere with the players enjoyment of the game, some players may be intimidated if someone is constantly staring over their shoulder. If called a judge was always
available.

But if players do not call a judge when an incident is taking place we cannot rule after the event, when play has passed on.

[edit deleted double post of point 4) ]

[ April 21, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]

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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged

ukpokemonpro

Member # 518

posted April 21, 2003 11:05 PM

quote:
prize provided by Wizards mysteriously partly disappeared etc etc.

As reporter driver, scorekeeper and dood who laid out the prizes let me explain about European GenCon 2003.

The event was organised by GenCon LLC, WotC UK made absolutely clear that this was not "their event" as such prize support would be limited to WotC guidelines. And those guidelines for the numbers of players we had were very small.

However the Judges at the event felt that given the prices paid to enter that the support was pretty poor. Through negotiation with WotC and at with the help of Lee Singleton and his team we put together a package of prizes far bigger than we should have. Even so this was still too small to ensure that everyone went away with something to remember GenCon and the so we augmented the prize pile with our own stock and promo's.

What was seen by some of the players was us as judges laying out prize support and trying to figure out how to reward winners and yet still give something to all players. We did change the prize support around as we had 4 days to cover and not a lot to cover it with.

Everyone got at least 2 reverse holo energies, every one got at least 2 booster packs and then there were Jumbo Cards for everyone too. Of course winners and runners up had more, that's the nature of winning but we had to spread the prizes as far as we could.

The Head Judge even donated a box of product and all the judges provided product at well under retail prices to keep the cost of the drafting down to manageable levels.

We agreed with the players the costs were too high and said so to WotC, but the reply was this is "not our event" GenCon LLC were contacted by the Judging Team but all to no avail.

I will say that the behaviour of the players at the whole event left us pondering that the "Sportmanship Awards" went to new players and foreign players who really did shine out above the masses.

The judges had to cope with aggressive play from all age groups and an incident of clear cheating.

After 4 years of TOing and Judging events I must say that this years GenCon Europe left me feeling exhausted and drained like no other tournament has.

We tried to keep the proceedings friendly, hands off and enjoyable.

We tried to reward all players and give them something for their money.

For some we appear to have failed and I am sorry they feel ...

quote:
unsatisfied after paying lots of money for tournament

I would have hoped that they could have been appreciative of what they did get.. but maybe in todays Gimme Gimme world that is too much to ask?

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quote the judge...

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From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

Freddy K

Member # 24380

posted April 22, 2003 01:30 AM

This occurred in the penultimate round of a Team Multiplay event. It took place with about ten minutes or so to go in the match. The match was won on prizes, more than just one. The Triple Poison attack was done by Player B of one team onto a Zubat with 10 damage belonging to Player B of the other Team. The Zubat was KO'ed through poison between turns anyway and the prize was taken. It was not a game-winning situation by far. The point was contested between the players at the time but no judge was called for that particular moment in play.

quote:
I knew it would be knocked out.It's a very basic rule isn't it?.

I'm afraid it's not a 'basic' rule. It does bear thinking about, as a 50HP Pokémon with 40HP, a Gold Berry attached and an ordinary status of poison (i.e. 10HP placed per turn) would NOT be knocked out before the Gold Berry kicks in. Would you be able to answer this question easily? Find the answer in the same document used by the judges, Team Compendium.

quote:
Q. Say I have a Pokémon with 50 hp active that is poisoned. I attach a gold berry to it. At the end of my turn am I knocked out by the poison or will the gold berry take effect first leaving me with 10 damage?

Looking at the second point made:

quote:
Why I am asking about this matter is because I heard some kids lost an important match at Gen Con Europe because judges insisted that you can still use Gold berry.

As I stated Judges were not called for this match. I was the person who had the Zubat. I made the case for the Gold Berry kicking off before the KO. It was a mistake and mistakes are made but I was a player at the time and if a judge had been asked, and if they had ruled otherwise then we would have accepted it and played on. The opposing team didn't feel that it was an issue and played on. Nothing can be done after the event. The attacking team was made up of a pairing of players who have qualified three times at least for STSs/Worlds. They were experienced players and knew full well what options to take if they wished to get a ruling made on the matter. Had we have known we were wrong, we'd have KO'ed the Zubat in-between turns.

quote:
In this GEN CON, judgeing was so poor all along.

Sorry, I cannot accept this at all!! [NoNoNo]

Every 'strange' ruling was checked using Team Compendium, which was online five paces away from where all play was being performed. Somebody was using 6 Dark Energy? If they were caught, they would be penalised heavily under DCI rules. It is impossible to check everyone's deck but I and S_B checked decks on at least one occasion and deck checking was in place. Pokémon is supposed to be a friendly and enjoyable game, the level of 'strictness' in such tournaments is still considerably low compared to say the Grand Prix tournaments of Magic:TG.

quote:
judges were not watching the matches properly unless you put your hand up for advice

As a person not privy to the conversations the judges had between themselves I have to say that you aren't qualified to make such a statement either. Rulings and implementations of the Floor Rules does not have to take place in the public domain. People and 'dodgy' situations were being kept an eye on from afar. If you suspect someone of foul-play, it's better to watch from a distance or else they'll just return to the cheating once your back is turned.

quote:
How can kids compete in a tournament if they can't provide proper judging?I think most of the players have gone home unsatisfied after paying lots of money for tournament.In fact,Wizards have got nothing to do with this GEN CON Pokemon event.I wish it was organised by Wizards.

Errmm hate to disagree but if I went into the list of experience these 'judges' had and the number of 'Worlds' qualifiers, Gym Challenges, GenCon events, South-East England Challenges, and indeed the World Championships themselves that they've been invited to Judge, organise and Head judge at I'd be here all day.

And clearly you weren't to know that Carl Crook who ran the 2001 STS qualifiers for WotC in the UK was present, as well as Lee Singleton who incidently as DCI manager of Organised Play for Wizards of the Coast UK invited the Head Judge (NoPoke) and Administrator (ukpokémonpro) for GenCon-Europe 2003 because of the knowledge, efforts placed into the game and experiences that they have. I really think that in retrospect, one failure to call on such experiences can't be used to judge what was four days of great gaming.

Wizards was involved fully throughout the proceedings, and these 'failing' judges in your eyes are going to carry the game forward for players across the continent after WotC pass the baton on at the end of the year. I think maybe these guys deserve a lot more respect, don't you agree?

Perhaps if you and other critics wished to make a difference you could start by taking the Professor test.

~fK

[ April 22, 2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Freddy K ]

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From: Slough, England UK | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged

pokemama
Member
Member # 134884

posted April 22, 2003 04:34 AM

Thank you everyone for your replys.I understand your point of view especially from the head judge.
All I wanted to say is: If the players have to play with quite a mixed age group and abilities(unlike Magic),beginners like small kids need more support and attention especially for big events like this.
Gold Berry situation:No, I wouldn't use Gold berry in order to remove total 40 damage for 40HP Pokemon even if my opponent doesn't say anything or didn't called the judges.
I'm not complaining about prizes here. A little bit more effort from both judges and players(a fair play) and match result would have been a lot more different.
As a amateur,I'm just feel so sorry for the all the players who had been cheated.

Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged

sentimental_blastoise

Member # 70533

posted April 22, 2003 09:49 AM

*sigh*

Let me just start by saying that I had a really good time at GenCon, and many thanks to 'pro, NoPoke, Graham, John and Freddy for their efforts, and all the players in what I felt to be a fun 4 days.

quote:
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Why I am asking about this matter is because I heard some kids lost an important match at Gen Con Europe because judges insisted that you can still use Gold berry.
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The Gold Berry Situation: What we thought was the right ruling was wrong, true. At the time, we were players. Between all 4 players, there were experience wise: 3 GenCon titles from last year, 2 European STSQ titles and a vast multitude of event experience - and much fatigue. As players, we resolved the situation the wrong way.

quote:
Originally posted by pokemama:

I'm not complaining about prizes here. A little bit more effort from both judges and players(a fair play) and match result would have been a lot more different.
As a amateur,I'm just feel so sorry for the all the players who had been cheated.

Effort from judges? I'm sorry, but the judges really did work hard, especially Ian and Ben. I don't profess myself to be the most experienced judge - as a player I know rulings, but GenCon taught me a lot about judging 'ethics'. You say people weren't 'watching the matches properly'. I like watching the matches when judging, seeing what's going on in the games and what strategies people are using. However, I was told that this puts pressure on the players if you remain for too long and makes them feel uneasy, and looking back on games i've played, i see the point. Many spectators or even a single judge watching over you makes you feel too 'watched' if they remain for a long time. Judges therefore wait to be called on, and step in if requested or if they see something irregular (get NoPoke to clarify that last bit ;-)) Anyway, my point is that standing off isn't bad judging.

Could you clarify what you meant by 'a fair play' or 'more effort from players'? Identifying who you believed to play 6 darkness energy on the boards wouldn't be fair and might get this post locked, but we were deck checking. I agree with the support of younger players - I'm sure the other judges will back me up when I say that we were doing as much as possible to support younger players, especially in the Unlimited Tournament. There were new players who
had brought decks that would have struggled to compete in the vicious beast that is unlimited - as judges we helped fix their decks with their favourite pokemon, going so far as to lend cards to complete them. Case in point - a boy called Michael played a Wigglytuff/Gyrados deck with a few cards from me, and went away having had 'a really great day' , which is great !

Perhaps if you could provide what you define as 'proper judging' or get the players who 'feel cheated' to get in touch?

cheers, s_B

[ April 22, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: sentimental_blastoise ]

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From: United Kingdom | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

pokemama
Member
Member # 134884

posted April 22, 2003 01:43 PM

Gold berry or no gold berry.....Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.Like everybody says,nothing can be done after the tournament.
I really should have said:The tournament was running smoothly throughout the day without any arguments and all the judges were always available from the reasonable distance durimg the matches. Players played the games fairly and friendly and no cheating was taking place.Thank you everyone for the wonderful 4days and I'm really sorry making the comment about the wonderful judges.

Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged

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