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Author
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Topic: illegal shuffle?
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themcster
Member # 1207
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posted May 06, 2003 12:23 PM
Ok, this has been bugging me for a while now and would like to know poeples thoughts are on it.
This arose from playing against a master prof from these boards.
We sat down to start a game. I randomly shuffled away whilst watching my opponent shuffle. Before he even started shuffling he openly looked through his deck and moved single cards around - either purposely putting them by others or purposely 'seperating' them within his deck. I then watched him 'shuffle' which entailed to a mere 'block shuffle' where he moved large segments of his deck around. I didn't like this so asked him to do it again, and all he did was move around large portions of his deck again before wanting to start. This niggled me because the 'large block' shuffle did not really affect his purposeful single card movements before the game started.
Naughty shuffle? Or me reading too much into it?
I should have asked for a judge... and i didnt ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif)
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Creator of the metal tyranitar deck. 7th September 2002.
Creator of the TMP dust devils deck. 7th September 2002.
From: horsham, west sussex. england | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted May 06, 2003 01:11 PM
if you look at the cards they are no longer considered shuffled.
a block shuffle is not sufficient randomisation
You can always shuffle the cards when offered to you.
quote:
Shuffling
Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen. Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players’ decks must be sufficiently randomized. Each time players shuffle their decks, they must present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and/or cutting. At a judge’s discretion, players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than pass that duty to their opponents. By presenting their decks to their opponents, players are stating that their decks are sufficiently randomized.
After decks are presented and accepted, any player who does not feel his or her opponent has made a reasonable effort to sufficiently randomize his or her deck must notify a judge. The head judge has final authority to determine whether a deck has been sufficiently randomized. The head judge also has the authority to determine if a player has used reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck. If the head judge feels that either the deck has not been sufficiently randomized or that a player has not made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted May 06, 2003 01:13 PM
Definitely very questionable. You're right, you should have called a judge, since there's no legitamate reason for such a "shuffle."
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Dark and Vile
Member # 74653
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posted May 06, 2003 02:07 PM
Yes, naughty shuffle. This opponent was clearly attempting to obtain an advantage by ensuring an even distribution of cards and types of cards throughout his/her deck.
Per the UTR, Section 21 - Shuffling
Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen. Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players’ decks must be sufficiently randomized. Each time players shuffle their decks, they must present their decks to their opponents for additional shuffling and/or cutting.
I shuffle my opponent's deck every time. I've only had a couple of people complain and I believe that in each of those cases, they had stacked their decks. I informed them that the rules say I can shuffle and they can shuffle my deck. And I shuffled.
Always shuffle your opponents' decks.
From: Melbourne, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted May 06, 2003 04:43 PM
I think it would be fine for him to look at his cards face up and rearrange them so that they are evenly spread--so long as he then proceeds to do 7 or 8 good shuffles in which the cards are intermingled with one another.
Too many players equate randomization with evenly spreading their cards. This was discussed at great length a year ago on these boards at which point it was demonstrated with tedious detail that true randomization leads to similar cards being next to each other more often than people would like. But, true randomization is the only fair way to play.
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Bilbo Baggins: "Every worm has its weakness."
Crobat2:
Winner, Syracuse SBZ, Feb, 2003
22nd Place, 10 and Under, World's, August, 2002
Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
Winner, 10 and Under Gym Challenge, Milford, May, 2002
Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted May 06, 2003 06:43 PM
Yep, as Crobat says.
I would have given that deck a nice shuffle myself.
Next time, do that.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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ShadowCard
Member # 2104
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posted May 07, 2003 03:32 PM
I once heard that it was legal to go throught the deck and place certain cards together and seperate others, and then shuffle. It made sense at the time because you were shuffling the deck afterwards. This however would be done even before the pregame procedures. I don't do it because i consider it "questionable", but if they did that particular set-up before the pregame procedures, wouldn't it be legal then?
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"And there came a hero who said: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, nor the very fabric of time, but the hero would not prevail...nor would he surrender."
Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted May 07, 2003 06:31 PM
Yes, I do that myself when setting up the deck, but I give it a thourough 8-9 riffle shuffles after that to ramdonize it. The block shuffle described above does not ramdomize at the card level, so cards placed next to each other would tend to stay next to each other, and that is not a legal shuffle, IMO. It's only good enough if the deck is already randomized and one or two cards have been placed back into it.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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Lex Luthor
Member # 114695
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posted May 07, 2003 07:28 PM
I have a deck where by the end of the game, all my dark energy and all my metal are on one pokemon so when I start a new game they are all clumped together. So, before I begin a new game I always look through the deck and separate all the special energy. I then shuffle my deck thoroughly
but not in blocks.
From: Smallville, Kansas | Registered: Nov 2002
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted May 07, 2003 11:32 PM
Crobat1... long and tedious discussions onrandomisation: I'm wounded!....
If you want to find out how effective your randomisation procedure is try the following.
1)Take an ordered deck
2)shuffle
3)look at the cards BUT DO NOT REARRANGE
4)repeat from 2
You will be surprised at the number of times and how long a decent randomisation takes.
You will be surprised at the number of clumps of cards that persist even though you are trying your best to randomise.
No clumps and a perfectly even distribution of cards is to my mind a stacked deck! Don't do this if I'm watching the penalties for a stacked deck are severe!
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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babayaga
Member # 28387
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posted May 08, 2003 06:40 AM
In keeping with how I interpret the spirit of the rules, I believe that a correctly shuffled deck meets two criteria:
1. Cards are distributed randomly through the deck.
2. The player does not know which card he or she will be drawing at any given time.
I teach the younger kids to shuffle in this way, which is the way I randomize my deck after a match[1], because young kids can't shuffle very well themselves and because nothing is so discouraging for that population as having no bench Pokemon or being energy-starved:
* start counting out cards into five stacks (like dealing out five hands of cards)
* as they're placing out the "hands," make sure that they're not creating large chunks of one card type (put the next energy on stack #3 because #2 has a bunch of energies, etc)
* each stack will have 12 cards when the deck has been laid out (easier for younger kids to count than counting to 60!)
* now for the actual shuffling: with cards face-down place the stacks together, block shuffle several times, then shuffle (slide shuffle or riffle shuffle) several more times.
* offer deck to opponent for cutting.
This method sufficiently randomizes the deck, and the player has no idea what actual order the cards are in. I wouldn't consider a deck "stacked" unless the player knew what card was going to be drawn, either by a predetermined order or by previous drawing of a "cue" card.
While the method I teach and use may appear to violate UTR #21 "All shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen," I'd also like to point out a chat ruling, "Q. I was playing with this guy and he rearranged the order of the cards in his deck prior to shuffl[ing] it, would this be allowed in a tournament? A. Yes, but you would have the right to shuffle it yourself or cut it as well if you were uncomfortable with his shuffling method." 14Sep00 WotC Pokemon Chat, ?125. The key is that shuffling is done with the cards face down, and sufficiently to erase knowledge of card order. One can order the cards before shuffling, as long as shuffling occurs to the opponent's satisfaction after.
The nature of the game cause clumps of cards to come together; trainers concentrating in the discard pile, energies remaining with the Pokemon they were attached to, Pokemon with their evolved forms. Unless we look at statistical analyses[2] we can't be positive which shuffling method gives sufficient randomization. It would seem logical and fair to remove the effect of gameplay on the randomization of the deck.
I would again reiterate, I believe the importance in shuffling is that the player does not know what card he or she will draw.
regards,
Beth
[1] Two things have led me to prepare my deck this way: I can't riffle shuffle to save my life & playing Harry Potter TCG which brings new meaning to the term "card clump."
[2] Perhaps the gaming industry has information on shuffling statistics?
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From: Springfield, Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2001
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jesschow12
Member # 70624
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posted May 08, 2003 07:38 AM
well i only know that when a person is shuffling ,he/she is not allowed to see the cards after shuffling
if the person is arranging the cards before shuffling ,i think it is allowed
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have list
From: singapore | Registered: Mar 2002
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted May 08, 2003 07:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by babayaga:
While the method I teach and use may appear to violate UTR #21 "All shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen,"
As long as you do not consider the face up preparation step as part of the shuffle then you are not commiting any offense as far as rule 21 is concerned.
I too 'prepare' fully ordered decks to break up the cards before starting to randomise them. This speeds up the randomisation process as a partly broken up deck randomises faster than a fully ordered one. If I spent a couple of minutes shuffling each time a shuffle was required I could be accused of stalling..even though I can demonstrate that it takes ages to completely destroy the ordering of a deck.
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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Spectreon
Member # 60305
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posted May 08, 2003 10:09 AM
As far as seperating cards, there is no penalty, in my book. Like mentioned above, cards sometimes get clumped together, so you either get all or none in one hand. I try to keep simular cards seperated, but then do a good shuffling, dont count how many times, but several, then allow my opponent to cut.
Now comes the tricky part. I dont believe your opponent "shuffled" his cards enough to randomize what he did. In this event, I woulda either asked if I could shuffle, or if called for the judge. Either way his deck needs to be randomized, and even if what he did was unintentional, and did not mean to "stack" his deck, he shoulda known better, and allowed, or shuffled his deck properly himself.
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To evolve, treat Eevee poorly, when it hates your guts, let it get ko'ed in th night while holding Spell Tag. PS, if it gets ko'ed outin the day, then it will die, go visit its grave in Soul House of Lavender, next to Fuji
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Spectreon often haunt graveyards, sneaking up and scaring unsuspecting visitors
From: Lavender Town, Kanto | Registered: Jan 2002
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Juggie
Member # 27565
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posted May 09, 2003 01:11 AM
Giday
This is the shuffle method i teach younger players or new players to the game ... I strongly suggest they do this immediately after the end of a game, before they leave the table.
This lets the player know immediately, if it's short or over 60 cards. They can then take the necessary action to fix, before playing.
1. Deal out (face down) 5 cards side by side.
2. Deal the next 5 cards underneath (making 10)
3. Deal the rest of the deck around & around on the piles until they run out. This should end on a end card.
4. count the cards in the pile that got the last card. It should be 6. 6 x 10 = 60. If not, count all piles (6 cards each) to check.
5. Ask the opponent to pick a pile from the top row & then the bottom row ... alternate until all piles are picked up.
6. Thank the player for their assistance & game.
With alittle practice, this can be done completely, within 1 minute.
This breaks up any groups of cards & because the opponent chooses what pile to pick up ... no way to "stack" the piles together.
The deck is now ready for the next round. A quick shuffle (3 or 4) & then offer is all thats needed.
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Creator of the Tournament strength "NO" Energy Deck
From: Wellington, New Zealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted May 09, 2003 05:27 AM
I personally think that the method that Juggie teaches young children is far and away the best--especially for that age group.
The real problem with shuffling is the issue of what occurs during games when players get the opportunity to look through their deck (Pokemon Trader; many other search cards; Revelation Eevee, Aquapolis Furret and many other Pokemon Powers). These days, a player may do this almost every turn or even several times a turn.
It is very common to move cards around when similar cards are touching. You see all 3 of your Feraligatrs together and you separate them.
The problem with this is that unless you now go to the trouble of doing 7 or 8 good intermingling shuffles--you have unfairly distributed the cards. Good randomization might lead to 2 of the Feraligatrs winding up next to each other. If you simply separate the Feraligatrs and now do a perfunctory shuffle--you are playing with a non-randomized deck.
Good randomization takes time. The game is under a time pressure. Mostly, we tend to ignore this in the interests of expediting the game.
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Bilbo Baggins: "Every worm has its weakness."
Crobat2:
Winner, Syracuse SBZ, Feb, 2003
22nd Place, 10 and Under, World's, August, 2002
Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
Winner, 10 and Under Gym Challenge, Milford, May, 2002
Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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