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Author
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Topic: Harvest Bounty and Triggered Poison
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Meganium45
Member # 99835
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posted October 08, 2002 06:57 AM
Actually had this come up in a match.
E-Venusaur v. Crobat.
Crobat used "triggered poison" on an e-Venusaur with no energy.
Player with e-Venusaur stated that he could attach 2 energy and retreat before the poison took effect. Player with the Crobat objected stating that Venusaur was poisoned immediately upon receiving the first energy, thereby shutting off the power.
I could see no logic to ruling that the energy placement was simultaneous, so I ruled that the Poison effected the Venusaur upon the placement of the first energy, and therefore a second could not be placed.
Thoughts, did I get it right, or mess it up?
Let me know....Seemed like a tough call.
Meganium 45 ![[Dubious]](../tcg/graemlins/dubious.gif)
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From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2002
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aragornanduril
Member
Member # 102293
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posted October 08, 2002 07:02 AM
It says in it's pokepower that you place the 2 energies SIMUTANEOSLY (sp*) so I think you got it wrong. sorry...
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MTV is an insult to the world -- Rip the system -------- KMFDM
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002
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Drakeo
Member # 25453
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posted October 08, 2002 07:24 AM
You have to attach the two energies at the same time. That "is" the definition of "simultaneously", correct? Triggered poison would switch on once the energies are attached, but the power would already have been used.
From: Albuquerque, New Mexico | Registered: Jun 2001
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aragornanduril
Member
Member # 102293
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posted October 08, 2002 07:28 AM
exactly. it says "at the same time" or simultaneosly
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MTV is an insult to the world -- Rip the system -------- KMFDM
From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted October 08, 2002 07:32 AM
I remember there is a rule that the energies are attached 1 by 1.
Q. If I use Expedition Venusaur's Power to attach both a Rainbow Energy and a Metal Energy to my Active Pokémon, will it take 10 damage (as I think it will)?
A. When the Power says 'at the same time' it doesn't mean that you place the cards on at exactly the same time, you do place them on one at a time, you just can't split this throughout your turn. If you place the Metal on first, you can then place on the Rainbow energy without taking damage from it. (Sep 19, 2002 WotC Chat, Q408)
Q. If I attach both both a Lightning energy and a Water energy to my Eevee using Expedition Venusaur's power, do I get to seach for either a water or lightning Eeveelution, and must I declare which before searching?
A. You are actually attaching these cards in an order, just doing them both at the same point in your turn. So, depends on which one you attach first, that would be the energy type you could flip for first. If the first coin flip ends up heads, then you would be attaching the second energy to the now evolved Eeveelution and would not trigger the power again. If you flipped tails, then you could flip for the second energy you attached and search for its type (if heads [on the second flip]). (Sep 19, 2002 WotC Chat, Q420 & Q433 & Q435)
From the above ruling, the Eevee’s power can be trigger twice, and the Rainbow damage resolve before the second Metal energy attached. This mean all the effect and power would be resolved after the first energy attached, and before the second energy attached. I don’t see any reason that the Vensusaur’s power can’t be disabled by poison after the first energy is attached.
Actually, I do not like the idea that energies are attached 1 by 1. This make the game more complicate. I like to think that the attaching 2 energies as an undividable process.
But, unless WOTC give a new rule, we should consider the attaching 2 energies as 2 separate steps.
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Psychic_Prof
Member # 96987
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posted October 08, 2002 09:04 AM
Well...either way, attaching the second energy is an effect of playing the first as is the triggered posion.
WotC rules state that attacking(active) player's effects preceed defending (non active) player's effects.
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From: Redwood City Gym, Eureka, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted October 08, 2002 08:09 PM
It seem that the recent ruling of Local Power overcede non-local power cause a lot of misunderstanding.
WOTC do not have a clear explantion yet.
In my understanding, it only apply on two "FUNCTIONAL" power which are contradicting each other. e.g. The Light Dragonite and the Erika's Oddish. Both are functioning but in opposite direction. In this case, the local power overcede the non-local power.
But if one power is being "DISABLED" by another power, the new rule do not apply. e.g. Muk's power already disable all other power, even other power are local.
In this case, the Venusaur's power are disabled by being posion by Trigger Posion power. So the Local/non-local rule do not apply.
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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BJJ763
Member # 158
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posted October 09, 2002 10:17 AM
MTM must not want to have to face these during tomorrow's chat:
quote:
Ok, when you use the Venusaur's Harvest Bounty Power, the effect is now in use (meaning you are pulling out 2 energy cards that you will attach to the ASctive Pokemon (in this case the Venusaur)). While Harvet Bounty says attach them both at the same time, for triggered purposes, the cards do go on in a sequence that you choose.
They are both going on effectively at the same time though (just in an order you have chosen). So while the Triggered Poison effect would trigger after the first energy card is attached to Venusaur, the effect is already taking place (both energy cards are out of your hand and being attached).
So, while the Poison shuts off Harvest Bounty (as written on the card), the effect has already passed and you are just resolving it. So you would still attach the second energy card (already taken out of your hand) to the Venusaur.
Before other rules lawyers jump up and ask about the Energy Evolution Eeevee and its rulings, here is the basic answer.
With Harvest Bounty, 2 energy cards are taken from the hand and attached at the same time in a specified order. While effects can trigger after each card is attached (like Triggered Poison, Energy Evolution, Healing Fire, Rainbow Energy damage, and so on), the second card will also get attached right after these triggered effects are resolved WHETHER Harvets Bounty gets shut off or not as the effect has already taken place (2 cards pulled from your hand and being attached).
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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted October 09, 2002 12:10 PM
![[Dropjaw]](../tcg/graemlins/dropjaw.gif)
A rule is a rule. No matter how we dislike the rule, he have to follow the rule.
Something can be self explain do not mean it is right. "I am eating because I am hungry" seem logical. But if you are eating in a court because of hungry, you will be send to jail.
Only one thing to say:
It is another prove that Pokemon do not have a logical ruling system. It is only a collection of rule!!!!
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted October 09, 2002 03:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DOMCGI:
Only one thing to say:
It is another prove that Pokemon do not have a logical ruling system. It is only a collection of rule!!!!
I think he's got it!
You think he's got it?
By George I think he's got it!
Do you know the Muffin man?
The Muffin man?
The Muffin man...
...one could then theorize, hypothisize, and generalsize that...
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From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted October 09, 2002 11:43 PM
![[Eek!]](../tcg/eek.gif)
someone's been lissioning to yoda talk to much
"eating because of hungry" huuummmmm.
"jedi master of light.... mmmmmmmmm"
"beware anger leads to dark side mmmmm."
Sorry. just had to point that out.
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From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted October 10, 2002 02:05 AM
I think MTM's email ruling about Harvest Bounty that he sent to the Professors is TOTALLY right! Here's why. It's TOTALLY inline with how the Japanese version of Harvest Bounty works. FYI, here's Usagi-chan's spoiler for Harvest Bounty:
quote:
Once during your turn (before your attack), instead of attaching your free Energy card from your hand to your Active Pokémon, you may instead attach 2 Energy cards to it. This PokéPower can’t be used if Venusaur has a Special Condition.
So, all the explaining that MTM did could have been easily resolved by illustrating the Japanese version and by saying "that's how it works in Japan, and that's how we want it to work in our version of Harvest Bounty."
Personally, I think WOTC wants to do all it can to maintain it's good relationship with TPC. If they start diverging from the way the cards work in Japan, then there's a strong possibility that it will sour their relationship with TPC. I'm sure they don't want that to happen, especially with the upcoming licensing renewal.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted October 10, 2002 08:59 AM
I have to explain my point more clearly.
Just to look at “I am eating because I am hungry”. This sentence is perfectly reasonable. But if we step back a little, we will find that this is not an acceptable reason for eating in a court (or in a class)
The MTM’s reason is similar in my point of view. If we just look at the message itself, it is perfectly reasonable and perfectly explains the rule. But if we step back a little to view the whole game, I see some problem.
When we resolve everything after the first energy is attached, and the power which allow the attach of the second energy is disabled, why the second energy still can be attached?
An analogue situation is:
If A cause B and C happen in sequence, but between B and C, the cause of A is disappear.
Normal, C will not happen in the game. E.g. Attack does damage and effect to the opponent. Attack is A, Damage is B, effect is C. If damage opponent (B) cause yourself KO (e.g. crosscounter), A will be disappear and C will not happen.
To get the result of the current Harvest bounty and Triggered Poison ruling, there is 2 choice to explain the rule:
1. Attaching 2 energies is only in 1 step. The difficulty is that it is clearly as a 2 steps process. Attached 1 by 1 and resolve all effect one after another. How could this be only in 1 step? Or WOTC overrides the current ruling that all the effects are pending until the second energies is attached. Those effects are considered as happening on the same time and following the existing rule of sequence: (Player’s effects apply first, than the opponent’s effects. If the player own more than one effect, the player can choose the sequence. See SlowKing and Chao Gym rule).
2. Attaching 2 energies is in two steps, but are un-interruptable. It will create exception in the game. I don’t get any other example in the game. The only close one is some Pokemon power still effective after KO, but all of those has the “even *** is KO” clause. Everyone knows exception will make the ruling system more and more complicated. No one likes exception. IF MTM say Harvest bounty is an exception, I could not say a word any more.
Making a rule should not only solve the precise problem, it should also have whole view of the game in the mind. It is what WOTC tell us, but they are not always follow.
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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