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Author
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Topic: Ruling Error from Yesterday's Chat
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted May 23, 2003 03:36 AM
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #1668 from pokesensei:
Another for the compendium...For Skyridge Kabutops,can you play a Basic to the bench?
master_trainer_mike says, "Nope, you cannot play any basic Pokemon or any evolution Pokemon cards when it is active."
This is wrong. Kabutops' Poke-Body reads:
quote:
As long as Kabutops is your Active Pokemon, neither player can play Basic Pokemon or Evolution cards from his or her hand to evolve Benched Pokemon.
Laying down a Basic Pokemon is NOT evolving. What the Poke-Body is talking about is Baby Pokemon, where as you cannot Evolve a Baby Pokemon with a Basic Pokemon in your hand.
-Phil
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THIS is truly thinking outside of the box!
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From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted May 23, 2003 05:24 AM
Kabutops' Poke-Body reads:
quote:
As long as Kabutops is your Active Pokemon, neither player can play Basic Pokemon or Evolution cards from his or her hand to evolve Benched Pokemon.
GymLeaderPhil: You make a good point, but you might be wrong. It all depends on the sentence structure. Another way to read the Kabutops Poke-Body is--
neither player can play Basic Pokemon (pause--catch a breath)
or Evolution cards from his or her hand to evolve . . .
Basically, the sentence includes what we used to call a "dangling element", which creates confusion.
An example of a "dangling element" back when I was in high school was "I shot an elephant in my pajamas . . . . How he got into my pajamas is difficult to explain."
[ May 23, 2003, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Crobat1 ]
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Bilbo Baggins: "Every worm has its weakness."
Crobat2:
Winner, Syracuse SBZ, Feb, 2003
22nd Place, 10 and Under, World's, August, 2002
Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
Winner, 10 and Under Gym Challenge, Milford, May, 2002
Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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Wizpog_Sensei
Member # 113271
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posted May 23, 2003 07:59 AM
Yeah,when I saw this card,I knew it could be taken either way,so I figured we better get a ruling on it.Crobat I believe is correct but does anyone know what the Japanese translation is?I checked Edo`s site but I couldn`t find it.
As for a mistake,there was a call that Mike blew.It was the Ditto/Retro Energy ruling.
`Sensei
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Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: No. Va | Registered: Nov 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted May 23, 2003 08:03 AM
From Usagi-chan's translation:
quote:
As long as Kabutops is your Active
Pokémon, no Benched Pokémon can
evolve except from effects of
attacks of attacks, PokéPowers,
or PokéBodies.
This seems to support Phil's interpetation. I'd have to support it as well.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Wizpog_Sensei
Member # 113271
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posted May 23, 2003 08:08 AM
Hmmm..it does look like it. ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
Well,we have to go with the current ruling in Saturday`s DCI sanctioned SBZ`s but this definately warrants further questioning at next weeks chats.You know,if you think about it,if it was as Mike ruled,then it seems that the card should have easily read something to the effect of "Neither player can play any Basic and Evolution cards from their hands..."
`Sensei
[ May 23, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Wizpog_Sensei ]
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•Founding Member of TEAM COMPENDIUM
•STS/World`s Judge
•Admin of WizPog
Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: No. Va | Registered: Nov 2002
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted May 23, 2003 09:08 AM
I believe GymLeaderPhil is correct.
Look at the Skyridge Omastar:
Poke-Body: Primal Stave
As long as Omaster is your Active Pokemon, your opponent can't play Basic Pokemon or Evolution cards from his or her hand to evolve his or her Active Pokemon.
This is very clear that it mean to play Basic Pokemon to evolve the Active, because we can't play Basic pokemon directly to Active.
The wording structure is identical to Kabutops' power, except Omaster only affect your opponent Active pokemon.
I would say, since the wording structure are the same, they should mean the same. So Kabutops should only prevent "play Basic Pokemon to evolve bench", not prevent "Play Basic Pokemon to the bench".
Base on yesterday rule, Kabutop will be so powerful if you can bring it out in the 2nd or 3rd turn. Since the rule can't be override until next Thursday chat, I may build a Kabutop deck for SBZ this Saturday.
[Edit: Omsater is better choice for this "wrong" rule because You still can play normally while your opponent can't evolve or increase Bench]
[ May 23, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: DOMCGI ]
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted May 23, 2003 09:20 AM
Pokesensei, are you going to use this incorrect ruling at your SBZ? Like you said in your first post, MTM also got the Ditto/Retro question wrong too (good thing Transform Ditto aint legal at the SBZ). Personally, I'm going to highly recommend that my head judge (I'm the TO) NOT use that mis-ruling; otherwise, Kabutops is will be TOTALLY broken.
Anyway, this is an OBVIOUS mistake. It's not like the Strength Charm and Crystal Body rulings that were overturned due to further clarification from TPC. This one is completely different and should ABSOLUTELY be ignored. IMO, NO ONE should be allowed to benefit from an obviously incorrect ruling. That's just plain wrong!!!!
[ May 23, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wizpog_Sensei
Member # 113271
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posted May 23, 2003 09:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveP:
Pokesensei, are you going to use this incorrect ruling at your SBZ? Like you said in your first post, MTM also got the Ditto/Retro question wrong too (good thing Transform Ditto aint legal at the SBZ). Personally, I'm going to highly recommend that my head judge (I'm the TO) NOT use that mis-ruling; otherwise, Kabutops is will be TOTALLY broken.
No,I should have reworded my reply and stressed that a HJ/TO has the final ruling in any scenario...I meant to imply to cmon that even if someone he plays disagree`s with any ruling,he just can`t change the rules because he wants too(I`ve heard this too many times...).
`Sensei-who has to run out the door and do some traveling..BBL
[ May 23, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Wizpog_Sensei ]
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•Founding Member of TEAM COMPENDIUM
•STS/World`s Judge
•Admin of WizPog
Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: No. Va | Registered: Nov 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted May 23, 2003 09:32 AM
Pokesensei, I still don't understand what you're implying. So, are you a TO or HJ? If you're the HJ, are you going to allow a player to play at your SBZ and benefit from this misruling?
Anyway, I suppose we can email MTM and get a ruling today because this COULD cause some HUGE problems.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wizpog_Sensei
Member # 113271
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posted May 23, 2003 09:45 AM
I said that the HJ/TO has the final say in any ruling scenario meaning thet they can rule the correct way in this situation or any other.
My original intent was just on how people like to change the rules just because they think that the MT`s are wrong.I just haven`t had time to go and reread/edit all the stuff.
Now I really have to run out the door.I`ll try to get on later but not sure.I hope this clarified it for you Steve.
`Sensei
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•Founding Member of TEAM COMPENDIUM
•STS/World`s Judge
•Admin of WizPog
Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: No. Va | Registered: Nov 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted May 23, 2003 09:59 AM
Okay, I see. Yah, I've seen judges in the past who've ignored MT rulings because they thought they knew better. For this misruling, I'm sure we're mostly in agreement that allowing it to stand at the SBZs tomorrow would be very wrong. Luckily, very few of my players read the rulings, and have already made their decks. Hopefully, it won't be a problem.
Also, does the TO have a say in rulings? Unless he's also the HJ, or an asst. judge, isn't he silent? I suppose he could fire the HJ on-the-spot and replace him, but that would obviously have to be for extreme reasons. Anyway, at our SBZ, I'm the TO and an asst. judge. I've asked someone else to HJ because my son is playing.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted May 23, 2003 11:09 AM
In theory, official rule is official rule. If people are freely to change the official rule just because they THINK the official are wrong, there will be no official rule. Only "House" rule will exist.
If we believe a rule is wrong, we only can ask the rule be overrided. But before the rule is changed, we still have to obey the rule.
In my opinion, this rule give Kabutops more power, but not really broken, because the power affect both players and the attack of Kabutops is based on luck. Lucky, Omaster do not have "official" rule yet. Otherwise, Omaster will be really broken because it only affect opponent and the attack is ok (soild 50 damage).
My previous post say about building a Kabutops deck for SBZ is just a joke. I can't attend the SBZ because I am busy on another stuff. Too bad.
I would suggest Head Judge to announce the Kabutops rule still vaild, but emphasize that the rule is questionable and could be changed soon. Also, the Kabutops rule do not apply on the Omaster, so Omaster only prevent to play Basic Pokemon to evolve Active pokemon.
[Edit: Thank you MTM to give us the new rule before SBZ. Everything back on track now.]
[ May 23, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: DOMCGI ]
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An Old Pokemon Trading Card Game Player.
Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted May 23, 2003 11:57 AM
All we need is for MTM to post a reply to this topic to correct yesterday's ruling (or have someone get an email reply from him). Some people seem to think that only a WOTC Chat ruling is official. However, IMO, any email or PokeGym reply from MTM is OFFICIAL.
This is a classic example why we have judges. Judges are given discretionary powers to ignore incorrect rulings that will OBVIOUSLY be overturned at a later date.
And YES, judge may ignore OBVIOUSLY incorrect rulings, even if they are OFFICIAL. I sure hope my HJ ignores this one tomorrow.
***EDIT***
Here's a different take on this ruling yesterday. I think we have to put the ruling in context with the card it is ruling upon. Sure, if we let the ruling stand apart from the card, we can see the error. But, when taken in context with the card, we see that MTM was merely clarifying the gametext, not changing it. JMO.
[ May 23, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Master Trainer Mike
Member # 13
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posted May 23, 2003 02:23 PM
Hi gang,
Ok, I just finished talking with R&D about some of these fuzzy cards that were talked about yesterday on the chat.
Here is the OFFICIAL RULINGS:
The Kabutops ruling from yesterday is overturned. It's Primal Aura means just what some of you have said. When it is Active neither player can play ANY Pokemon cards from their hand that will evolve any Benched Pokemon (Basic on Babies or Evolved on any). Either player CAN play a Baby or Basic onto their Bench.
Clarification for Retro Energy, the Devolution effect is tied in with the damage removal. If you attach it to an evolved Pokemon you must choose if you remove up to 2 damage counters or not. IF YOU DO, then you MUST Devolve that Pokemon. If you do not remove the damage, then you do NOT Devolve the Pokemon.
As for the Retro Energy. If you manage to play 2 of them due to Harvest Bounty, you resolve each one one at a time. So if you were going to attach 2 of them to a damage Stage 1 Pokemon, you would remove the damage and devolve it form the first Retro Energy and then when you resolve the second one, the Pokemon is NO longer an evolved Pokemon so the Retro Energy could NOT be used to heal it.
My apologies for any confusion this may have caused. I was caught off guard yesterday with all the questions. Thanks to Chrisbo fo rletting me know about this confusion so that I was able to talk with R&D and get you the FINAL OFFICIAL ANSWERS for this weekend.
Good to luck to everyone at the SBZ's!
Master Trainer Mike
Mass Market Programs Manager
(who is only human after all)
From: Renton, WA | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted May 23, 2003 02:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Master Trainer Mike:
Master Trainer Mike
Mass Market Programs Manager
(who is only human after all)
I don't know Mike, sometimes I wonder. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
Thanks for the clarifications.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Wizpog_Sensei
Member # 113271
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posted May 23, 2003 08:36 PM
Well,I guess Mike settled it.He`s just human?I thought he was assimilated by the Borg... ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif)
Yes Steve,I am in agreement with you on a misruling.If a HJ/TO(TO meaning that he/she is running the event and that he/she is the HJ as well) and it`s obvious that a ruling was given in mistake from the chat,then they have the power(rightly so) to give the correct ruling in such a scenario.To explain further for DOMCGI,this basically applies to the above mentioned misruling(s) that it is wrong,as Steve pointed out,for a Judge to just change a rule because he thinks the MT`s are wrong but it is OK to rule differently on the obvious mistaken ruling.
`Sensei
p.s.Just to answer the issue of who has final say,this is straight from the DCI Universal Tournament Rules:
The head judge is the final judicial authority at any DCI-sanctioned tournament (see section 15, Judge Responsibilities).
[ May 23, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Wizpog_Sensei ]
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•Founding Member of TEAM COMPENDIUM
•STS/World`s Judge
•Admin of WizPog
Right..not blocked that is.At least until I`m overuled by a Gameboy again!-MT Pat smarting after being overuled by a Gameboy.
`Sensei is a madman from another dimension!-DMTM
From: No. Va | Registered: Nov 2002
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Ice'Cold
Member # 12056
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posted May 23, 2003 09:18 PM
Yeah, I think we should trust the R&D guys, most of them have like, degress in
hyper-quadra-mega-ultra mathematics. Before mtm clarified this, I hope nowone would have left it standing as is. I mean, come on, the only card to counter something illegidly that powerful would have been magby, and even that isnt something definite. Everyone knows they would never print a card with that much controll, I mean, even with slowking there was always a chance you could play cards, this power was a definite restriction and would give players who can get this card out too fast a definite advantage over their opponent.
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From: Illinois | Registered: Apr 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted May 23, 2003 11:11 PM
Thanks MTM for the overruling. My son has been bugging me all afternoon to let him make a deck based on the misruling. Obviously, it didn't happen.
Good luck everyone tomorrow. We're hoping for 40+ here in Colorado. Hopefully the Memorial Day weekend won't effect us.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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