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Author
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Topic: Ho-Oh and Porygon2
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted December 11, 2002 08:28 AM
Just to explain the “Evolve” concept. Hope does not start another war.
The basic idea is: If there is no other card under the Pokemon card, the card is treated as Basic Pokemon; otherwise, it is treated as Evolved Pokemon.
Example 1: Electabuzz Card is a "Basic Pokemon Card". If the Electabuzz is played directly, it is a "Basic Pokemon". If the Electabuzz pay over (Evolved) from Elekid, the Electabuzz card is still a "Basic Pokemon Card" but it is treated as "Evolved Pokemon".
Example 2: Kabuto is a “Stage 1 (Evolved) Pokemon Card”. If it play over (Evolve) the Mysterious Fossil, it is treat as “Evolved Pokemon”. If it is played by Fossil Egg, it is treated as “Basic Pokemon” even it is a “Stage 1 (Evolved) Pokemon Card”
In the future, we MAY have a way to play Stage 2 Pokemon directly (who sure it can’t happen?). That Stage 2 Pokemon Card will be treated as “Basic Pokemon” while In-Play!!!!!!
For Ditto Transform to Tyranitar, since there is no card under Ditto Card, Ditto is treated as “Tyranitar” and treat as “Basic Pokemon”.
For Brock’s Ninetales, the rule’s no matter how it shapeshift, it is still Brock’s Ninetales. So it is always an Evolved Pokemon.
In the game, it is very simple that whenever refer to not In-Play card, it go to the card “Name” (we can’t Treat a card while it is not In-Play); if refer to In-Play card, it always go to the “Treat”.
For the Energy card, we use the above rule all over the game except Ho-oh.
I do not satisfy with the explanation. It just cause too many confusion.
WOTC may just say: Whenever refer to “Basic/Special Energy card” for In-Play energy card, it is go to the Name (or called orginal identity). I search the Oracle, it seem working for this rule. Any opinion?
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Pokemon Professor: Score of 40/50
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 11, 2002 09:20 AM
Ok... I just read this e-mail sent to the Professor list: quote:
When a Special Energy card is Energy Burned (or has what type of energy it provides changed in any way such as on a Ditto for example), then the type of energy card it is has changed.
In this case your Special Metal Energy card is now also considered a fire energy card (NOT a BASIC fire energy card though).
It will still do all of its special abilities though. Changing what type of energy a card provides does NOT change any of the other text on the card, it will still prveent damage (or do extra if a Darkness for example).
It is only when an effect states that a special energy card loses its effects (such as Light Dragonites Miraculous Wind) does that happen.
Thanks.
MTM
So I just figured out the easiest way to explain this whole problem.
When a Card asks for Energy Card, or X Energy Card, it is refering to the type of energy that the card provides. But when it asks specificly for a Basic Energy Card, Special Energy Card, Basic X Energ Card, or Special X Energy Card, it is refering to the actual card itself.
Thats all there is to it.
-GreatFox
Master Pokémon Professor
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 11, 2002 09:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by GreatFox:
Ok... I just read this e-mail sent to the Professor list: quote:
When a Special Energy card is Energy Burned (or has what type of energy it provides changed in any way such as on a Ditto for example), then the type of energy card it is has changed.
In this case your Special Metal Energy card is now also considered a fire energy card (NOT a BASIC fire energy card though).
It will still do all of its special abilities though. Changing what type of energy a card provides does NOT change any of the other text on the card, it will still prveent damage (or do extra if a Darkness for example).
It is only when an effect states that a special energy card loses its effects (such as Light Dragonites Miraculous Wind) does that happen.
Thanks.
MTM
So I just figured out the easiest way to explain this whole problem.
When a Card asks for Energy Card, or X Energy Card, it is refering to the type of energy that the card provides. But when it asks specificly for a Basic Energy Card, Special Energy Card, Basic X Energ Card, or Special X Energy Card, it is refering to the actual card itself.
Thats all there is to it.
-GreatFox
Master Pokémon Professor
That's a crummy solution (sorry, but even I have a breaking point). What MTM wrote has nothing to do with anything in this topic. If Ho-oh actually cared what the card really was, it should have said, "Type of basic energy card (ignoring any type changes) attached to Ho-oh)." It doesn't. I'm sorry to put it that way, but that's how I feel. Hopefully we can get more info at chat tomorrow, because although I can maybe see where they're coming from, I can't justify it on any grounds.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Porygone3
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Member # 73689
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posted December 11, 2002 11:34 PM
I'm recall a debate on Aerodactal (fossal) vs a Brock's Ninetails trying to shapeshift. I dont belive that was ever resolved. But saying that Evolved Pokemon "count" as basic Pokemon ... thats just twisting the game allready, I was not aware of THAT loop hole, trust me it makes more loop holes, and its a matter of time before the whole of the game comes crashing down floating engery and all. I ask again: Can Porygon2 convert Megnums' second Grass engery?
I still like the explaition "Fire engery, this engery provides grass engery." thats great, but I still have 2 engery on it. Well, not really, since its one card providing a difernt card right? Nope. Its a basic fire providing a grass engery, so its an engery card that provides an egnery card, so thats... 2. As for evolved pokemon being treated as basics, the only time that happens is with the Fossle egg and the power of Fighting Kabotobos. And so it gets deeper.
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 12, 2002 08:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Porygone3:
I'm recall a debate on Aerodactal (fossal) vs a Brock's Ninetails trying to shapeshift. I dont belive that was ever resolved. But saying that Evolved Pokemon "count" as basic Pokemon ... thats just twisting the game allready, I was not aware of THAT loop hole, trust me it makes more loop holes, and its a matter of time before the whole of the game comes crashing down floating engery and all. I ask again: Can Porygon2 convert Megnums' second Grass engery?
No, it can't. Porygon2 says to "treat that card as that type".
So, since you are treating the CARD as a different type than Grass, Meganium's Power will no longer work on it.
Not only that, but by finally re-reading Porygons's power, I am now FIRMLY convinced that the MTs ruling must be reversed. It very clearly states to treat the CARD as that type. There is no Grass card that provides Fire. It is to be treated as a Fire card! And it is still a Basic Energy card.
Q.E.D. it is a Basic Fire Energy card!
Excelsior!
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted December 12, 2002 10:26 AM
Here here, PokePop! I'm behind you 100%. Creating any sort of duality just makes things more complicated. The cards say to treat like a _____ energy card, so for all purposes you should treat it as such.
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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 12, 2002 10:57 AM
You know whose fault it really is though? TC! If they had put those nice rulings in instead of that nasty one, we wouldn't be here! ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
Okay, seriously though: Wasn't there a debate a long time ago (early 2001) about energy typing and provision? As I recall, it was one of my early rules arguements with the managment. Anybody save a copy perchance?
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted December 12, 2002 04:51 PM
what I ment was if you convert the second proved grass engery that is provided by giant groth. not the first one, as that would negate the power.
Wildgroth+Conversion=
Grass (grass)
^ Convert this (basic,specal,floating?)card into (Something else)
Since this rulling says its still counted as a basic engery card...
Grass (grass now=fire but still grass?)
or what happens when you convert the first grass engery into grass??
Wild groth + Convert now =
Grass (grass)
^ Convert to grass Card now is grass and provides grass.
Grass<Grass> (grass) (grass)
Look 4 engery with only 1 engery attached.
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted December 12, 2002 05:05 PM
wow, I just read the chat from tonight, (darn I missed it)
long quote follows:
master_trainer_mike says, "You can call a fire energy a steam engine but it still won;t count as a different basic energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "So, changing what type of energy a card provides, does NOT change what that card actually is."
master_trainer_mike says, "It does change what it counts as in that a card that provides energy of a certain type, is considered an energy card of that type."
master_trainer_mike says, "Meaning, you make a Basic grass energy provide fire (like with Dary Porygon 2) and now that counts as a fire energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "Any effect that can move a fire energy card like Rocket Charmander's Gather Fire can affect it."
master_trainer_mike says, "HOWEVER, it is NOT a BASIC FIRE ENERGY CARD."
Hum, ok thats basicly what you said before now the good part:
master_trainer_mike says, "It is a basic grass energy card that also counts as a fire energy card (because it provides fire energy)."
darkmt_mike says, "If you are looking for logic in all the rulings...you are looking at the wrong Game."
darkmt_mike says, "It was never meant to have the kind of high level scrutiny that we have to apply to it. So some things do not make a lot of sense, but..."
No kidding, looking at the wrong game for logic? That makes me so sad its not even funny, great I love this rulling, I make a fire into a grass and now have 2 engery on my pokemon. Thanks for clearing that up.
Oh last quote:
darkmt_mike presents the speaker with question #142 from yoshi1001:
For that Ho-oh/Porygon2 deal, what is your source for making that ruling (ie did Japan say so)?
darkmt_mike says, "We are the source."
master_trainer_mike says, "Guys we have been working with Japan since the beginning and try to do what they want."
master_trainer_mike says, "Please give it a rest."
Please give it a rest? Sure, since with your rulling I can have two (or more) engery out with my Porygon2 I'll gladly give it a rest, I'm very happy that I can have 4 grass engery out (see above math in prevous post) with only 1 grass engery. Any engery card can give me 2 engery types now, thats great!!
Oh, I'm droping the Ho-oh thing, I could care less about the extra 20 dammage, and I'll let the loop hole with Rocket Zapdos go now, I've got my floating engery. Unless Mike (eather one) proves me wrong. Thanks ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 12, 2002 05:58 PM
Yhea, well, here's one more for you from todays chat... as I stated in an earlier post (I'm Neo_Fox, BTW) : quote:
Originaly from the 12/12/2002 PokéChat Logs:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #163 from neo_fox :
I thought I had made it clear in the post @ WizPoG... as I see it, when a card ask for energy card it refers to the type of energy the card provides but when its asks for Basic Energy Card or Special Energy Card it refers to the actual card it self... right?
master_trainer_mike says, "That is a great way to put it. Thanks."
I rest my case! (maybe)
Oh! and Porygone3, again, there are no floating Energies here at all. What your propossing is not possible. Maginum is not Making Each Grass Energy Card provide 2 Grass Energy Cards. It is only making the Grass Energy Card provide 2 Energies, not 2 Energy Cards, just Energies. Big difference.
-GreatFox
Master Pokémon Professor
[ December 12, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted December 12, 2002 06:47 PM
I see no way as to how you got this "floating energy", but there is none. An energy card can only provide energy based on the number of symbols on the upper corner, and in the main picture. Nothing can change how much a single energy card provides UNLESS is directly says so like Meganium's power. As for this ruling, we're probably gonna have to live with it, and say that a converted energy no longer COUNTS or is TREATED as a Basic Energy Card (unless otherwise stated), provides the converted energy type, but as a card on its own, counts a Basic Energy Card by name. Though, I do think this ruling should be overturned...
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted December 15, 2002 05:53 PM
I would also like to know what type of Engery your consedered to become when your painted, as with the rulling you would be a (fighting) Pokemon that is now treated as a (grass) Pokemon- so if you were to attack a Gilagar you would do the double dammage then reduce by -30... Even if you dont understand my point on the floating engery, the whole "treat as" in my eyes has always been clear-cut- back to the day Ditto first came out and said that you could treat any engery on it as engery of any type, to me that just said- you could make fighting anything, you could make colorless anything - and Ditto transformed into whatever he was fighting, it was just that easy- now you've got some rulling that I never heard of where if Ditto is an evolved Pokemon he is still consedered a basic Pokemon. And worse yet, you've got the same rulling on Brock's Ninetails when he is shapeshifted- and yet I recall a rulling that said Mew's Devoultion beem returned Brock's Ninetails to the owners hand (I'm guessing the shapeshifted Pokemon was discarded?) But wait- how could Brock's Ninetails be effected at all by that attack if it was being treated as a Basic Pokemon? Oh- yes there are loop holes, as one of the Mikes pointed out- this game is not the place to look for logic. A statement that saddens me still, as I would hope that any CCG that plans to stay around for years to come would strive for logic in the game play- erratas are not the way to go- baning sets or cards is a way to get rid of the problem - but its not going to go away, people that injoy the game and have supported it for ages want to know how to play it better. I'm just waiting for Crystal Engery to come out- because that's going to have some rullings on it I'm sure!!
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted December 15, 2002 10:17 PM
When a Pokemon is painted, it is considered the new type, and not what is on the card. Darkness energy would do damage to a Darkness Pokemon that was painted. Ditto, though sees through this and copies the original card as stated in the Pokemon Power or a ruling from the compendium.
I cannot see how Brock's Ninetales can, in any way, be treated as a Basic Pokemon. Brock's Ninetales itself is and Evolution card, and you can only attatch Evolution cards to it.
As for the issue of Basic X Type Energy Card vs. Y Type Energy Card, from the way I see the ruling, its like the X Type Basic Energy Card is a cement wall which gets painted to have a wooden pattern. To everyones eyes, it would be wooden, but in actuality it would be cement. So a Basic X Type Energy Card will be converted "painted" into a Y Type Energy Card for attack cost purposes, but counts as Basic X Type Energy Card for any other effects.
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted December 19, 2002 08:35 PM
here we go again my freinds out there:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #236 from i_luv_my_oddish:
With the new energy ruling, will Light Dragonite's Pokemon Power effect basic energy cards that are converted by Porygon2 to another type, since this makes them "special energy cards"?
master_trainer_mike says, "I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to figure out."
master_trainer_mike says, "Porygon 2 just changes what type of energy a card provides. Period."
master_trainer_mike says, "It does NOT change whether it is a BASIC or SPECIAL energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "It does not change a Basic Grass Energy card into a Basic Fire Energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "It WOULD make a Basic Grass Energy card provide Fire energy which would make that card count as a fire energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "NOT a BASIC fire energy card though."
Why are people so confused about this? Well, becase its a rulling that causes loop holes. It still is a basic engery card that now provides a second engery. Still, Mr Mike has not said that that card is providing one engery and one engery only, and in fact- if he ever does... well, lets wait and see...
Oh more:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #244 from jackiej:
i heard that on the Neo Revelation Riachu that even Rainbow energy can be discarded to make the attack bigger. did i just read it wrong?
master_trainer_mike says, "Yes you can do that. Why?"
master_trainer_mike says, "Because the attack says for all discarded lightning energy cards. Any card that provide lightning energy counts as a lightning energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "Rainbow does, so it would count."
master_trainer_mike says, "Now, if it said for each BASIC lightning energy card, it would NOT count as it is a special energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "AND if you had a basic fire energy card attached that was providing lightning energy (doe to Dark Porygon2) then THAT would NOT count either."
master_trainer_mike says, "However, it does NOT say BASIC, so either of these would add damage if discarded."
Dark Porygon... Thats great, I did'nt know Dark Porygon had the Pokemon Power Convert as well, sorry I'm not trying to be snide- I DO expect more from A "Master Trainer" - other then that- I see what he's saying here, if the attack calls for basic engery- its calling for whatever the bais engery is- if it says engery, then it could be any- specal, normal- whatever. With my augerment- I would say that my basic fire engery is now providing a grass engery. 1+1=2 everyone.
wow, great writing:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #263 from neo_fox:
I wrote an Article that explains how Energy Cards work and how they should be used in cases like Porygon2 coverting them.... http://www.pokemonlabs.com/tcg/energy_cards.html... this should help a lot!
master_trainer_mike says, "Ok. Take a look gang ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif) "
And check it out I did, great writing, so my
(1)Basic Engery card provides a type of (2)Engery thats not specal or basic. Now my Basic Engery Provides the type it has become, and since the old type is ingored, its also just a Basic Engery.
1+1 still equals 2. Thanks for clarfying that.
Now, the Profecors out there will clamer to fix this- I know, perhaps some mods will respond to this as well. I'm waiting for Mr. Mike to fix this loop hole, eather Mike will do. Untill then- take care.
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 19, 2002 08:57 PM
Basically, the aruement is:
WotC: Ho-oh, in using the phrase "type of basic energy card" is asking for the original state of the card.
Just about everyone else: Ho-oh, in using the phrase "type of basic energy card" is asking for the number of unique energy types provided by basic energy cards.
That'a it in a nutshell. Seeing as how Ho-oh is the only application of this rule for now, I can live with this, even though I disagree strongly with it.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 19, 2002 09:00 PM
What the ![[Confused]](../tcg/confused.gif) . OK.. so I see you read my article and I'm glad you think it good. But, you apperently didn't read the whole thing. If you would have, you would've noticed that I mention that the card is not providing two energies at once. It is only providing one (whatever the conversion changed it to.)
Even MTM said it only provides one. Just because he didn't out right say it doesn't mean he didn't mean to. The "it only provides one" is implied.
Geez, I'm starting to feel like MTM trying to explain this. ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif)
OK... I just looked through my article, and I too didn't out right say it only provides one. But its implied that it only provides one. quote:
Originally found @ The Pokémon Labs:
So, even though Porygon2 converted the Energy Card into a different type, all that it really did was change the Type of Energy the card provides. At all times, nothing on the Energy Card itself changed at all. All the text and artwork on it remain in tack. So in reality, what you end up with is a Basic Fire Energy Card that is just providing one Energy of a different Type.
Now, I thought it was pretty clear that it implied that it only provides the new type. But I guess I'll just have to rewrite it to be much more specific about it. For your sake and others. ![[Blush]](../tcg/graemlins/blush.gif)
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 19, 2002 10:00 PM
Here's the biggest problem that I have with the whole thing:
A Grass card is converted/burned/whatever to Fire.
It's not a Special Fire Energy card
It's not a Basic Fire Energy card.
So, what kind of Fire energy card is it???
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted December 20, 2002 02:02 AM
Porygone3, whenever you have an Energy Card, no matter what type, it only provides a number of energy equal to the number of energy symbols next to the word Energy. So a Recycle has ![[White Mana]](../tcg/graemlins/white_mana.gif) next to the word Energy, so it provides 1 Energy, and 1 is Energy Card for attacks, trainers, etc. A Double Colorless Energy has next to Energy, so it provides 2 Energy, but is 1 Energy Card. Nothing can change the number of energy a card provides with the exception of the Neo Genesis Meganium.
From what you're saying; 1+1=2; you can count Rainbow Energy to provide a total of 9 Energy, which is not the way it is meant to be.
All they are saying is that a converted Basic Energy Card is still a Basic Energy Card, but counts as a "Plain" Energy. Its like evolving a Hitmonchan from a Tyrogue, in play it is an Evolved Pokemon, but when its discarded or in your hand it is a Basic Pokemon Card.
If its not a Basic Fire Energy Card, nor a Special Fire Energy Card, lets call it a Plain Fire Energy Card for now, and for the sake of sanity ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif)
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 20, 2002 07:04 AM
Sorry, a Plains card provides White mana ( ) ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Seriously, I don't like creating a whole new class of energy card for this. I just don't see the need. What was wrong with the way everyone understood it. I've reviewed the E-2 and E-3 cards and I don't see any where this is a big issue. Sure, there are some cards whose retreats are affected by what kind of energy cards are attached to them, but so what? So what if you get to have a lower retreat because you converted their energy...
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 20, 2002 09:44 AM
Well... actually, the three classes of Energy Cards (Energy Card, Basic Energy Card, and Special Energy Card) have always exisisted from the very begining. Its just that the difference between the three has never come up until Rainbow Burm Ho-oh came into the picture.
Seriously, MTM said to go ahead and check out my article. Its good reading and should help out a lot. http://www.pokemonlabs.com/tcg/energy_cards.html. It should clear things up, unless your like Porygone3
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Big Daddy Snorlax
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posted December 20, 2002 09:51 AM
I'm with Pop on this one. We had a game mechanic in place that most people understood. Simply put, "if a card is providing energy of type xyz, then it is considered an xyz energy card." That takes care of Rainbow, or anything that changes the type of energy an energy card provides. Most everyone also understood that a Special Energy was still a Special card, even if it was converted to provide some type of basic energy. This system worked, and we could make rulings that followed a logical train of thought (at least as much logic as one can expect from Pokemon).
Now we have a new interpretation for just one card (Ho-Oh). Now everyone is trying to reexamine the past rulings in light of this new information, and it has caused a lot of confusion. While the ruling supposedly applies to only Ho-Oh at this time, I am not sure why it wouldn't apply to some other past rulings where energy is converted. Saying to someone, "this is a fire energy card because it was converted, but it is still a Basic Grass Energy card because that is physically what it is, adds a level of complexity and confusion that we don't need. On the flip side, I'm not sure why it is so important to have this special interpretation for Ho-Oh. The card is not all that much more powerful when interpreted in the past manner.
BDS
[ December 20, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Big Daddy Snorlax ]
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GreatFox
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posted December 20, 2002 10:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Big Daddy Snorlax:
Most everyone also understood that a Special Energy was still a Special card, even if it was converted to provide some type of basic energy. This system worked, and we could make rulings that followed a logical train of thought (at least as much logic as one can expect from Pokemon).
And somehow, this ruling is confusing. You just said it right now. Most everyone also understood that a Special Energy was still a Special card, even if it was converted to provide some type of basic energy. Its the same line of thought. A Basic Energy Card is still its original Basic Form even if it was converted to provide some other type of basic energy.
Now whats so hard or cunfusing about that! ![[Bored]](../tcg/graemlins/dozey.gif)
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Big Daddy Snorlax
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posted December 20, 2002 12:08 PM
I think the thing that makes this scenario more confusing is the ruling that, "if a card is providing energy of a certain type, it is considered a card of that type." Granted, it does not say "a Basic Energy card of that type". In the Ho-Oh example, a Grass card changed to Fire is considered a Fire energy card, it is also a Basic energy card, but it is not a Basic Fire energy card.
BDS
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GreatFox
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posted December 20, 2002 04:38 PM
Oh well... I guess I'm the only one that understands and fully agrees with it. But then, ever since the very begining of the game here, I always took every card apart word for word. So I guess thats why I don't have any problem with this ruling and why it is.
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Porygone3
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posted December 20, 2002 06:03 PM
Implied rullings now eh? I've seen this one before, its now implied that Fralagator E card has the word "may" in its Power - its implied that Blane's Charzard has a Fire Engery symble insteed of Fighting Engery symble. But what happens when you start implying things- well the term is errata. You have to be very clear cut when doing an errata- because what your doing is saying that X card now reads as M insteed. My issue is that- I know you Profecors are just trying to clarfy it- and I see that meny people dont like this rulling. (Wonder why) Strengh Charm is a great example of what I'm talking about- it clearly says your attack would do +10 dammage, but some game mechanic (that is by the way not in the rullbook) says that dammage to the bench can never be incressed. Since when? Great this card now reads, "If you do dammage (to the defending Pokemon or your own Pokemon) with an attack, that attack does 10 more dammage, then discard Strenth charm." Using this logic, Porygon2 now reads, "Change 1 Basic Engery card into a Basic Engery type, that Card is Still consedered its orginal type that provides the other engery type you have chosen, but does not become a Basic Engery card of that type, thus retaining its orginal value it gains the new value in place, treat that type as Basic engery for all attacks and powers, however that card only provides 1 engery of the type you have chosen. (this power stops working when effected by a specal condition)"
Now, there is a mouthfull. Errata it that way and be done with it if you want, untill such time, I'm not sure what that power IMPLIES. Perhaps it implies that I've got floating engery. Since we are at it, I think Misty's Girodos's power should Imply that its power has the word "may" in it.
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