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Author
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Topic: Ho-Oh and Porygon2
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 20, 2002 06:50 PM
Well, the Feraligator ruling was designed to keep the card from being problematic to judge. The strength charm ruling is part of a set of rulings designed to reduce the number of required calculations for damage to benched Pokemon.
Now, Wizards says we shouldn't expect total logic from this game. Duh. This is a game designed for kids, translated from another language, then somehow ruled on. However, I don't see how that figures into any of this. Both systems have basically equal logic to them. The dermining factor should be which rules subset is easier to understand and implement. No point in complicating the game if you don't have to.
Hmmm...
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted December 23, 2002 09:29 AM
It is a long thread. This thread actually arguing two different topics:
1. Interpretation of the rule (Porygone3 VS GreatFox)
2. Support/oppose the rule
GreatFox do a great job to explain the rule. I agree with his explanation and do not agree with Porygone3.
Yoshi1001 and GreatFox actually are not arguing to each other. Yoshi1001 just say that he opposes the rule as this raises the complexity of the game. It is also my opinion. GreatFox never say he support or oppose the rule. He just explains how he understands the rule. Unless GreatFox say “WHY” this rule “SHOULD” apply, otherwise, Yoshi1001 and GreatFox are not arguing to each other.
Finally, based on my understanding, I try the last time to re-word what is this rule mean and hope to help people to understand. In my opinion, MTM just not explain this rule clear enough and cause a lot of confusion.
Also, the following is just my understanding using my own word. It is not official and could be completely wrong.
When viewing a card, if view form different standpoint, the card may mean different.
When the point of view is the “Actual Card”. It is the actual card name printed on the card. The actual card name is never changed by any game effect. It is why MTM say "Basic Grass Energy Card STILL and Basic Grass energy card" because he is referring to the actual card name.
When the point of view is the “Functional” of the card, it is how the card functional “AS”.
For example, Ditto face Genesis Cleffa, it is now functional as a Cleffa
In the “Actual” point of view, it is still a "Ditto" card; in the “Functional” point of view, it is completely a "Cleffa" card.
For a converted Basic Grass Energy card,
The Actual Card Name is still "Basic Grass Energy Card".
The Functional Card Name is "Fire Energy Card".
What MTM do not explain clear is: Basic/Special is not part of the Functional Card Name. When in the Functional Point of View, Basic and Special will not be considered and do not affect the function. This concept is very important but is only my understanding from what MTM say. Without this hiding concept, the whole rule cannot be explained.
For the game purpose, a Trainer/Attack/Power should refer to either the Actual or Functional name of the card, but cannot refer to both in the same time. Depend on the text of the Trainer/Attack/Power, you either call the energy card as Actual “Basic Grass energy card” or Functional “Fire Energy Card”.
The method to identify Actual Energy Card or Functional Energy card (GreatFox suggest in the Chat): whenever the text refer to "Basic/Special Energy Card", it is refer to the Actual Card Name; when just refer to "Energy" or "Energy card", it is refer to the Functional Card Name.
The above can explain all the existing ruling including the new Ho-oh rule.
In my opinion, this is too complicated. We can unified the Actual/Functional name of the Energy card in to “Basic Fire Energy Card” and don’t care the actual or functional any more. It is so simple unless the concept of the Actual/Functional is important in the future release card.
Hope not fires another war and not causing more confusion.
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 24, 2002 01:58 PM
Yes! ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif) Thank you DOMCGI... someone that finaly uderstands it.
Your right, Yoshi and I are't really arguing this ruling. He agrees with it, but doesn't like it. While I, in the other hand, fully agree, support, and uderstand how and why this ruling works.
I don't really believe that this ruling makes the game any more complicated (it was already complicated from the very begining). In fact, I just thik it adds an other level of strategy.
So many think that not enough strategy and complexity is in this game; and when some is introduce, they complain that its too complicated. Make up your minds! ![[Mad]](../tcg/mad.gif)
I like this new ruling, I fully support it, I fully undersdtand it, and I will continue to support it everyone understands it.
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 24, 2002 02:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GreatFox:
Yes! Thank you DOMCGI... someone that finaly uderstands it.
Your right, Yoshi and I are't really arguing this ruling. He agrees with it, but doesn't like it.
Stop right there.
I don't agree with this ruling. I can see how it works, and that's about it. I don't see why we need it to cover the instance of a single card combination. It makes the game uneccessarily complicated to do so. While I acknowledge all rulings must start somewhere, I do not feel this is a good place. There just doesn't seem to be any reason to have this rule, even though it can be implimented.
Saying I agree with this ruling is like saying I agree with communism. I understand what it is, but I don't agree with it.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 24, 2002 05:35 PM
Well... fine... as long as you understand how it works and why. You have your reasons not to agree with it and I have my reasons to agree with it. But as long as you understand the how and why...
I tired of trying to defend this ruling. Just hope you never attend one of my Tournaments and I rule against you when using a Ditto, Light Golduck, Porygon2, a Buzzaped Electrode, and any other card that changes or converts others. ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif)
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted December 24, 2002 05:50 PM
Greatfox: BDS and I also understand the ruling and would apply it in any games we would play.
Heck, When they made the ruling that Ditto as MF or Clefairy Doll counted as a KO if it was Knocked Out, I immediately added some MFs to my deck even though I was vehemently against that ruling. (Note that it was later reversed...)
As DOMEGI points out, we just don't agree with the ruling and believe it should be reversed.
Its not that we don't understand it.
Its not that we won't apply it in events.
Its just not a good ruling. (IMHO)
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Registered: Feb 2001
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GreatFox
Member # 77642
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posted December 24, 2002 06:23 PM
Yhea! I know that you understand it and would apply it in games. I just guess that I'm the only one that thinks its a good ruling then. I really don't see any reason to reverse it. I think that it doesn't complicate anything any more that it is and it seems really easy to keep track of... but thats just me. ![[Bored]](../tcg/graemlins/dozey.gif)
Well... there's one thing I'm sure of. Porygone3 is the only one completly confused by this ruling. Sure hope he figures out there is no such thing as floating energies soon... ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
[ December 24, 2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted December 24, 2002 10:04 PM
I'm not "confused" by this rulling at all, in fact, none of the Errata confuse me at all, I just love the loop holes they create in the game. I really would love to play in a tourment that had to follow all these errata, belive me- I would have the printed errata with me and be readdy to point out what overides what. My point now is that this is not a clearly worded rulling, in fact- it not even an errata yet. Also, there never has been an errata listing provided by WOTC and the only place you can find anything like that is other web pages, no where on the Pokemon forms can anyone else find these errata or changes in rules, when I asked when you fliped the coin, before or after you set your active- I got several responces, even onces saying that the rullbook was worthless, then why write it? When I pointed out the bad rulling on Strenth Charm, it was pointed out that some other game mechanic I've never head of before says that you can never incress dammage to the bench- were are they getting these ideas from? When whoever the powers that be desided to try and make Pokemon more like the Japanese version- and changed that Posion now effects powers- even before then- when motafied format came out- a change began in how Cards were looked out. I came in on this game when fossel had just come out. One of my favorate cards was (still is) Ditto, the store I played in, I was the only one who understood how it worked. Now, there is- like 50 or so pages devoted to the pour thing. Why? Well, when the cards were first translated they (whoever they is) were not thinking ahead, they were not making the game anything like the Japanese version, otherwise the Powers would have included the fact that they turn off when posioned. Brock's Ninetails would have allowed you to use the Powers of the Evolutions you play on it, and oh yah- Haymakers would never have seen the light of day... stop me there, you see, every card would have had a raiting on it- and whatever rate it was given would alow you a serten amount in your deck- something like a point system. I'm not clear on exactly the way the Japanese play, and I dont think we here in America will ever be enlightened - again, not by Wizards- are they hiding it? There translation of Slowking is what got that card over played- and do they reprint the errors? Nope. Its too expencive. Even in magic, when a card was to powerfull they just baned or errataed it. I'm not saying there a bad compiny, just- I'm not sure what there trying to do sometimes. My point is- I'm not the one who made these rullings, but there will always be someone to question loop holes, and I'm sure there will always be new ones. Thats just the way it is.
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