Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Consistency over Creativity

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Any suggestions? Sure! Don't put so much focus on ratings. Remove some invites given through ratings and put them into tournaments that should give invites like Regionals!

I never said people weren't supposed to use overpowered cards. And I never directed slops towards any player that did use those decks.

Decks can't be "countered" anymore, that was a point I was trying to get across. The only efficient way to beat a overpowered deck is by playing a deck that can match the strength of the deck or have more strength(,speed, hp, etc) than the deck. You don't see direct counters anymore like we saw in the past with Rock-Lock, RaiEggs, and Medicham. And I think tournament records show just how ineffective it is to even try to "counter" decks like G&G, who set the record for the most cities won by a single deck.

I never meant the "it" in "play it or lose" to pertain to a certain card or deck. It obviously corresponds to a set group of decks.

I've seen too many tournament reports where a good player has gone 4-2 and came in second or third over 3 tournaments only to play G&G and win the next tournament he plays in. I've seen countless players not even make the top cut at tournaments and then play G&G and come in second/third multiple times. Maybe the format isn't as black or white as I mentioned, but there is definitely a strength to the newer cards that give them a big advantage over older popular decks (even DP-MT ideas like Empoleon, Infernape, Rampardos, etc).

I don't have to list any overly powerful cards coming out. Watch what happens at states and I guarantee you will see one or two decks rise to the top. Just copy them like so many other people do. You won't see counters to them and it will be a waste of time playing any other deck.

JMHO
 
has it ever even been a question.

You Play to Win the Game. Herm Edwards' philosophy holds true even in pokemon

You play with whatever gives you the best chance to win, and many people are taking this to heart, which explains why consistency is the favorite word of successful players
 
desert eagle said:
You play with whatever gives you the best chance to win, and many people are taking this to heart, which explains why consistency is the favorite word of successful players
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Not neccesarily.....

My favorite word in pokemon is "OPTIONS"!!! Kant, it is a differnt side of the fence over here. I could easily play Gallade and win/cut EVERY tournament base on skill alone. However, I do not play this game solely to WIN events. I enjoy breaking the metagame. Building new and powerful decks. That is what I enjoy most about this game.

Some of my rogue decks have floundered HORRIBLY, while others have FLOURISHED greatly. It is the chance you take playing rogue decks. I will agree that UNDERSTANDING YOUR METAGAME is easily the top concern when playing rogue. If you cant counter the meta effectively, start that new rogue deck.

Please understand that not ALL people are like you. If they were, we wouldnt need YOU!!!

JImmy
 
Well, I think Kant's point still stands, though maybe not all as one sentence. A rogue deck can work just as well as any archetype, but it's got to be good against the metagame - it needs to stand just as much of a chance of winning. Although this applies to both types of decks, an archetype in the wrong metagame can fail just as easily. Consistency just happens to be the basis of any tournament successful deck. Anything can win a game, but not anything can win a tournament. Archetypes have the advantage of being decks that are already proven to have a consistent strategy (although individual lists may faulter), while rogue decks require lots more testing.
 
I still don't think people get my point. This topic wasn't to discuss rogue decks versus archetype decks. The point I was trying to make was that the newest archetypes makes it near impossible to play any of the older archetypes or rogue decks and still do well. Sure, there are exceptions, but on average 99% of the older HP-MT archetypes won't stand a chance next to the archetypes we saw come out of SW.

Again, there are exceptions, as people have won tournaments with Ninetails/Delcatty, or Venusaur, but those results are a small portion of the overall tournament results. Most of the tournament results show that most of the decks that did well during battle roads or before that haven't scratched the scene since SW came out. That decks like Magmortar and G&G (based on SW cards) are dominating the tournament scene.

And I fear GE will lead to the same thing.

I don't want to see decks become unplayable whenever a new set comes out. Sure, some decks will lose their limelight because of new bad matchups, but to become totally outclassed by the new cards almost to the point where they just can't even match the speed, damage, and hp of those pokemon seem pretty appalling. And I am not even talking about the HP-PK pokemon.

I look to the future of the game. What happens if this keeps happening? What happens if Gallade becomes unplayable because in 3-4 sets we find a new stage 1 that can deal 200 damage every turn consistently? Why would this happen?

Because pokemon aren't countering each other anymore. They are just out-doing each other speed, damage, and hp wise.

We aren't seeing days where poke-powers are wrecking the field and people start countering the metagame with Medicham. We aren't seeing days where every deck runs stage 2's and rare candies and Rock-Lock counters the metagame. We are seeing days where Infernape is getting outclassed by a pokemon that can flip over all their prizes and deal 180 damage to the active pokemon for 3 energy. Days where Torterra with 140HP is being outclassed HP-wise by a 200HP stage 1 Wailord that isn't even a lv.X or an ex.

This has been going on for a while. Pokemon have been getting stronger, faster, etc, etc, but it's never been happening at such a fast rate. Because of the increasing power of newer cards, and the current tournament system, creativity is down the drain. You can't get away with decent cards. You can't even get away with old archetypes. Because in one or two sets those old archetypes will be weak compared to the new pokemon.

And maybe I am blowing this out of extreme, but I am a wonderer, and a dreamer, and I look to the future of the game and I don't like where it is going.
 
I actually share some of the concern Prime expresses in that post. They have been progressing toward more game-breaking cards. By itself I don't think that's a problem, but some things do get ridiculous. Shiftry ex PK is a good example of this (outdated, I know). Once in a while you'd run into someone who had decided to play it and they go and pull rare candy into shiftry turn 1 and go "80 damage gg" and you respond "ugh, too bad I decided to play evolution cards".

The increasing power of cards in DP also caused problems with wild kick and the whole mario deck in general. The deck would pull turn 1 wins (which took no skill) just because the cards were more powerful than most of what was currently legal.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me too much, because I have to deal with it the same as everyone else, but I don't really GET why pokemon feels the need to steadily make cards bigger and with "more for less" style attacks.
 
Prime said:
I still don't think people get my point. This topic wasn't to discuss rogue decks versus archetype decks. The point I was trying to make was that the newest archetypes makes it near impossible to play any of the older archetypes or rogue decks and still do well. Sure, there are exceptions, but on average 99% of the older HP-MT archetypes won't stand a chance next to the archetypes we saw come out of SW.

Again, there are exceptions, as people have won tournaments with Ninetails/Delcatty, or Venusaur, but those results are a small portion of the overall tournament results. Most of the tournament results show that most of the decks that did well during battle roads or before that haven't scratched the scene since SW came out. That decks like Magmortar and G&G (based on SW cards) are dominating the tournament scene.

And I fear GE will lead to the same thing.

I don't want to see decks become unplayable whenever a new set comes out. Sure, some decks will lose their limelight because of new bad matchups, but to become totally outclassed by the new cards almost to the point where they just can't even match the speed, damage, and hp of those pokemon seem pretty appalling. And I am not even talking about the HP-PK pokemon.

I look to the future of the game. What happens if this keeps happening? What happens if Gallade becomes unplayable because in 3-4 sets we find a new stage 1 that can deal 200 damage every turn consistently? Why would this happen?

Because pokemon aren't countering each other anymore. They are just out-doing each other speed, damage, and hp wise.

We aren't seeing days where poke-powers are wrecking the field and people start countering the metagame with Medicham. We aren't seeing days where every deck runs stage 2's and rare candies and Rock-Lock counters the metagame. We are seeing days where Infernape is getting outclassed by a pokemon that can flip over all their prizes and deal 180 damage to the active pokemon for 3 energy. Days where Torterra with 140HP is being outclassed HP-wise by a 200HP stage 1 Wailord that isn't even a lv.X or an ex.

This has been going on for a while. Pokemon have been getting stronger, faster, etc, etc, but it's never been happening at such a fast rate. Because of the increasing power of newer cards, and the current tournament system, creativity is down the drain. You can't get away with decent cards. You can't even get away with old archetypes. Because in one or two sets those old archetypes will be weak compared to the new pokemon.

And maybe I am blowing this out of extreme, but I am a wonderer, and a dreamer, and I look to the future of the game and I don't like where it is going.
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I personally don't think you are exaggurating. It's about get out the high damage pokemon and beat up stuff. As a result, decks aren't countering each other and its more about chance (get out the big pokemon first) and combos, strategy and player ability are becoming less and less relevant.

Prime is 100% correct, you simply cant counter the metagame anymore. I mean its commonly said, Magmortar does well against water decks, how silly does that sound!? As much as autolosses because of weakness suck, never has every deck in the format autolost vs another. Some were just more risky but had better pay out vs other decks.

I am so with you on this. You are basically trying to say (and I agree) that they've dumbed the game down far too much.

Thing is, I just dont play in tournaments because I dont like how the game is, here, away from tournaments people dont use the ridiculous stuff much or only for testing purposes. Can we realistically do anything about this situation though? Its an actual question though it seems unlikely.
 
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I think I'll try to say what I already said before, but this time with examples...

You guys know what can take down G&G? Here's a whole ton of stuff that can take it out if used the right way: LM Misdreavus, LM Mew ex, LM Banette ex, LM Flygon ex (maybe), MetaNite (with the right techs), Flariados, Scizor ex, DX Metagross (with Lake Boundary), Absolution, TR Dark Slowking, FRLG Exeggutor, FRLG Gengar ex, FRLG Mr. Mime ex (whichever depending on the situation), HL Banette, HL Claydol...

I personally like the LM Misdreavus that can 2HKO a Gallade with a Strength Charm or PlusPower (not to mention what it evolves into). In fact, I might go build myself a deck right now with that Misdreavus and start using it. Oh but wait, I can't because it's not tournament legal.

Again, we are missing blatant counters to those monster decks/cards out there right now simply because things get rotated. How many people would play Banette ex as a counter to G&G if they could right now? I was never fond of the card myself, but I sure would try it out.

For some reason, we don't play this game like the Japanese do. Moneymaking issues aside, I don't really like the idea that I'm not playing this game the way it should be played (with a larger cardpool). And we've already seen some of the spoilers for the next set, which reveals an absence of 30-40 cards or so. Once again, we'll probably miss out on some of the good combos that the Japanese get to use (where's my Garchomp Lv.X?). We might miss out on cards entirely (Granbull/Noctowl). The thing is, if you feel that the game is messed up right now, it's because we're basically playing chess with missing pieces.
 
Eriknance - you're forgetting, that those can't dominate the tournament scene. They can't be used, and as such, are not pointed in the equation. They can't be factored, sorry. I still hold that right now the problem is a non-issue. Enough thought and enough skill [ and enough luck ] will keep us afloat, for now. It may become serious later on - most of the players in the meta go for the tried and true, which means that those of us who do consistently go rogue will be able to figure -something- out.

However, with the dwindling card pool, it will start to be more obviously biased towards one or two decks. I'm hoping that POP figures this out before it happens. Like I said - it's not a huge issue where I am. Be certain that with enough ingenuity, there should hardly ever be a real problem unless it escalates beyond where it is now where there's maybe two good cards a set, they're blatantly recognizable, and it doesn't matter the amount of skill and effort you put in, you lose a majority of the time.

Right now, I think Prime has the right idea - displaying the potential problem that we might have before it becomes a serious issue.
 
it's all good

eriknance said:
IAgain, we are missing blatant counters to those monster decks/cards out there right now simply because things get rotated. How many people would play Banette ex as a counter to G&G if they could right now? I was never fond of the card myself, but I sure would try it out.
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Excellent point. Our rotations do not match. This does cause odd effects. The worst of which was the Neo Gatr Riptide/Trash Exchange overlap (IMO, of course).

The shorter card pool does allow different decks to rise to the top in our meta vs. Japan.

On the other hand, some people are glad not to be dealing with Mew ex (LM) and the Holon Trainer engine.

There are also different cultures. I get the impression the PCL reporters were surprised at our complex decks at Nationals last year, as in, "isn't this such a different style?!" This means different decks dominate for this reason, too.

I do like that the game is kept fresh by the rotations personally. The current dominance of G&G is not bugging me personally, other than I can't seem to get enough TSD.
 
I had originally stated that the format would get a shake up with the release of Great Encounters. I hope it's still true. They are already cutting out A LOT of great cards by my estimation. Pure speculation here, but I really don't see how GG isn't going to be a tier 1 deck unless there is some kind of release in this set that I'm not seeing. Cutting out the eevelutions and fossil pokemon DOESN'T help our situation.
 
^Totally.

The 40 or so cards taken out of GE for this 'Diamond and Pearl: EX Emerald' set in the spring nerfs the format-normalizing abilities of GE.

We are probably missing out on Kabuptops, Garchomp X, Glaceon and Omastar, great cards who dont suffer from 'damage inflation'. Hopefully we dont have to until spring to use Pachirsu/Phione as well.
 
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Venjamin said:
Eriknance - you're forgetting, that those can't dominate the tournament scene. They can't be used, and as such, are not pointed in the equation. They can't be factored, sorry. I still hold that right now the problem is a non-issue.

Right now, I think Prime has the right idea - displaying the potential problem that we might have before it becomes a serious issue.
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I pointed out that the cards I listed were not tournament legal right now. That doesn't mean they aren't legal somewhere though (Japan), and it just aches me to not be able to use good counters or combos simply because our format has to be so limited. As far as the "problem" right now -- I'm not pulling my hair out right now that much because I see some good things coming out in the next set (unless they all get cut for some reason). However, I've asked myself the question of whether or not I would continue to play if this was it. Say, hypothetically, that we had to stay with out current format (HP-SW) for a whole year without any change -- would people continue to play? Two years ago when the format was HL-on, I would easily say yes. Even DX-on was fine with me, but right now we have such a limitation on the game that there really isn't much to play other than Magmortar or G&G (or Absol with a secondary Pokemon that can clean up your opponent's Basic Pokemon). I think a lot of people aren't really upset right now because they see the next set offering promise, but I'd like to raise the point that right now the metagame is in rather poor shape.

bulbasnore said:
On the other hand, some people are glad not to be dealing with Mew ex (LM) and the Holon Trainer engine.
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I never liked Mew ex, but I didn't really see that much of a problem with it. Mynx was very powerful at the time, but it could be countered as well. I think more people would welcome Mew ex back into the format right now than push it away (at least it can deal with Gallade/Gardevoir). The Holon Engine was messed up, but that's only because of the absence of Rocket's Admin. I've played against people this season who set up with Holon Castform and Delta Pokemon within the first few turns (basically what the Holon Engine helped you do nearly 100% of the time), and I played a Team Galactic's Wager and countered their 15+ card hand. Part of the reason the Holon Engine was so powerful was because almost nothing could be done to prevent one's opponent from having a third of their deck in their hand the whole game. If Rocket's Admin. was never rotated out, the Holon Engine would have been kept under control.

Scizor said:
I had originally stated that the format would get a shake up with the release of Great Encounters. I hope it's still true. They are already cutting out A LOT of great cards by my estimation. Pure speculation here, but I really don't see how GG isn't going to be a tier 1 deck unless there is some kind of release in this set that I'm not seeing. Cutting out the eevelutions and fossil pokemon DOESN'T help our situation.
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I wouldn't be surprised if they cut out Claydol either. I don't know if people followed my link in the earlier post, but what ever happened to those cards that we just didn't get? I would hate for some of these Pokemon I have spoilers for from Great Encounters to end up like Noctowl and Granbull. I think it's become noticable that one single card can change the way our entire game is played (Rocket's Admin., Pokemon Reversal, etc.), so I'm quite disappointed by GE's lack of cards. I too still hope that our format gets a bit of a shakeup, but I'm going to hate it if we're missing things like Claydol, Pachirisu, Call Energy, certain Lv.X's, the fossil Pokemon, the Eeveelutions, etc. :frown:
 
bulbasnore said:
On the other hand, some people are glad not to be dealing with Mew ex (LM) and the Holon Trainer engine.
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If we still had Mew ex then maybe every deck would stop running Absol because of the fear of the opponent flipping over a Mew ex start and just copying you.

I wish LM was still legel :(. I want Banette ex back.
 
Let Fire Fall said:
If we still had Mew ex then maybe every deck would stop running Absol because of the fear of the opponent flipping over a Mew ex start and just copying you.
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Yah, I kinda think that's Erik's point.

Mine is that I'm resigned and content; I've been through dominant decks before. I concede that the slightly off mix of cards contributes to different decks rising, but I contend that if it wasn't off, others would rise, and many would be heartily sick of those, too.

It's OK that others are not so laid back about the current card pool. I get it. Its kinda sad looking at my Mew ex cards sitting in my binder.
 
On the topic of following japan's format, I know a few players that haven't boughten any cards from DP-on, who find no reason to play it tournaments because they don't have the new best cards. If the format was like in japan, these players would have another chance to use the cards they spent all that money on one or two years ago.
 
I don't believe Milotic won worlds. I believe it might have won nationals in 2004 by Jacy S. (go SC!) I believe the 2004 world champion was yamato with a team magma deck.

2004 Nats: Walrein/Milotic
2004 Worlds: Team Magma
2005 Nats: Medicham ex/Eeveelutions (I believe)
2005 Worlds: Nidoqueen
2006 Nats: RaiEggs
2006 Worlds: Mewtric
2007 Nats: Absolution
2007 Worlds: Absolution w/ Rayquaza ex d

If anything is shown here, is that in every year, the deck that has won Nationals has not got on to Worlds to win until this past year. Does this help my theory that decks are ceasing to counter each other and just are overpowering each other? Maybe.
 
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