Blissey Or Magmortar?

[Papi/Manny]

Blissey is horrible now. Boost is out. Doing 40 t2 is nice (not really..), but then what? Discard more energy and attach to that one blissey? 130 hp isn't amazing compared to the damage that can be done and will most likely be 2HKO. It will get a quick 1-2 kos but after that, blissey will pretty much fold to anything. Magmortar has that nice healing ability, spread attack, and a lvl X that is incredible. Blissey has...a big basic. Even with kingdra, I'd take magmortar>blissey every time in a leafeon deck. And on the tanglegrowth idea, it only has 110 hp. If and when that first one dies and you lose 5-6 energy, the deck pretty much folds to whatever hitter they have.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Magmortar for me because you have the option of the L.X card. Without it I'd be inclined to go for Blissey because of the additional hit points and greater damage output when only 1-3 energies are attached, owing to the attack's effect.

 

[ShinySwampert]

Blissey is horrible now. Boost is out. Doing 40 t2 is nice (not really..), but then what? Discard more energy and attach to that one blissey? 130 hp isn't amazing compared to the damage that can be done and will most likely be 2HKO. It will get a quick 1-2 kos but after that, blissey will pretty much fold to anything. Magmortar has that nice healing ability, spread attack, and a lvl X that is incredible. Blissey has...a big basic. Even with kingdra, I'd take magmortar>blissey every time in a leafeon deck. And on the tanglegrowth idea, it only has 110 hp. If and when that first one dies and you lose 5-6 energy, the deck pretty much folds to whatever hitter they have.

With Shaymin Lv. X that becomes 150. Since when was 110 HP on a Stage 1 bad?

It loses 5-6 Energy if you knock it out. IF you knock it out. Big deal. As I said, after your active gets OHKOed by Power Whip, if you can't KO Tangrowth on the next turn, you're going to lose. The way I play it, if Tangrowth is benched with 5 Energy attached (easy with Energy Forcing), and Wild Growth is in effect, Leafeon Lv.X's Verdant Dance will do 150 for 1 energy. If they knock out Leafeon, clean up with Tangrowth. Only thing that kills it is Scramble+Psychic cut.

Tangrowth heals while doing a respectable 60 for 2. IFDS Tangrowth does 60 and spreads 20 to 2 for 2 and removes damage each turn with it's body. Combined with Sceptile, both are better than Magmortar.
Blissey isn't horrible. It has 130 HP and built-in energy acceleration, which will be great for it in the next format. Yes, you can keep discarding and putting energy on Blissey. It isn't that hard. 130 damage is not easy to do with DRE and Scramble out of the format. Boost was good, but it wasn't what made Blissey playable. Blissey is fast, and in the next format. fast 1 energy attacks that do 40-60-80 will beat 3 energy 150 damage attackers

Yes, Magmortar, combos better with Leafeon Lv. X. Blissey doesn't need Leafeon Lv.X. However, Magleaf will not be the best combo in the next format. Tang-Leaf-tile with will be. Magleaf is slower, and less versitile.

Magmortar isn't as good as it used to be, either. Bronzong MD counters Magleaf hard. Kingdra and Bronzong MD/IFDS maybe? Maybe even Blissey/Kingdra.

 

[Banette EX]

how can Leafgreen be faster than Magleaf

LeafGreen _: Stage 1 + Stage 1 + Stage 2
MagLutions: Stage 1 + Stage 1 + Basic Techs

Magmortar can snipe for 100,if you dont ave Shaymin out by the the turn I abuse magmortar then your energy double is done and Im just gonna abuse Magmortar early and often,spreading and spreading even if Growth heals 2,I drop Boundary and OHKO it.

MagLutions will be a decent choice next season,Blissey decks are to be determined,I dont see nothing combing with it all that great,but still a decent player.

 

[ShinySwampert]

how can Leafgreen be faster than Magleaf

LeafGreen _: Stage 1 + Stage 1 + Stage 2
MagLutions: Stage 1 + Stage 1 + Basic Techs

Magmortar can snipe for 100,if you dont ave Shaymin out by the the turn I abuse magmortar then your energy double is done and Im just gonna abuse Magmortar early and often,spreading and spreading even if Growth heals 2,I drop Boundary and OHKO it.

MagLutions will be a decent choice next season,Blissey decks are to be determined,I dont see nothing combing with it all that great,but still a decent player.

Leaftile can overcome it's weakness. If it weren't for fire mono-weakness and Sceptile's low HP, Magleaf would lose to Leaftile (Bubble Coat?). Getting Shaymin Lv.X out fast won't be hard at all, as it is a basic Lv. X, and that's very do-able on turn 2. Seed Flare makes Tangrowth even faster. T2 Seed Flare for big damage, next turn, retreat Shaymin Lv. X and Power Whip everything for 100+.

If Tangrowth can get 6 Energy attached, (with Shaymin or Leafy, that isn't hard, and he can do it faster than Mag with Shaymin,) it KO's the Magmortar, and the Magmar on the bench, and the Leafeons. There is no recovery from getting 1-2 attackers OHKOed by Power Whip. There is no more Scramble. If you can't OHKO Tangrowth on the next turn, you will lose. Nothing is safe.

Leaftile is faster than Magleaf.
Magleaf: Stage 1 + Stage 1 Lv. X + Basic Techs
Stage 1 Lv. X are slower than Stage 2's. Because of Rare Candy, Sceptile can be in play as early as turn 1. Leaftile is also more versatile, Leafy or Tangrowth can be used as attackers. Or use Leafy while powering up Tangrowth. Or use Shaymin and power everyone up, while doing 100+ damage.

And as I said, MagTran is a better combo than MagLeaf.

 

[Banette EX]

OK but Basic Lv.xs are like stage 1s,then your playing Leafy X also which makes it a stage 2.

Also its the fact that your god hand can be disrupted by T1 Wager(Sableye). Magleaf can adjust and some people play the deck 3-3-1 Magmortar,then with those versions just go aggro Magmortar before you get all this. All I need is Magmortar and Lake Boundary to contend with the deck. You need Sceptile/Tangrowth/Shaymin Lv.X/several energy to even get a advantage over me.

LeafGreen is gonna be a good deck,but its easy to tech in Flareon in the deck also and get rolling to counter that. Im not denying LeafGreen isnt gonna be strong,but Maglutions>Tanglutions

 

[Naki Feralkin]

Blissey is horrible now. Boost is out. Doing 40 t2 is nice (not really..), but then what? Discard more energy and attach to that one blissey? 130 hp isn't amazing compared to the damage that can be done and will most likely be 2HKO. It will get a quick 1-2 kos but after that, blissey will pretty much fold to anything. Magmortar has that nice healing ability, spread attack, and a lvl X that is incredible. Blissey has...a big basic.

In a format shifting to speed and not setup, Blissey will pretty much take care of business. 50-60 constantly for only a few plus Pluspowers can beat down almost any stage 1 in two shots while setting up an assist poke. And I don't consider 130 HP's on a Stage 1 to be a fold. Loss of boost will not stop Blissey. I didn't even NEED Boost that much at nationals and people were wondering where my Beach was because I seldom played them. (Only for a sure shot kill)

If big Stage 2 decks were able to be fast and stuck around, sure, Blissey would not be ideal. Thats not gonna be the format we're looking at here. We've got pixie power, which Blissey can stop in no time at all. Kingdra, which while powerful, can be soaked by the high HP's it has and still tradeoff damage. Garchomp which is WEAK to Blissey, and Leaf/Mags which I will admit is not a very fun matchup (Beat one by the skin of my teeth at nats.)

Unfortunately, Mags isn't even practical with Kingdra sticking around.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Groudon will T2 OHKO Blissey.

Kingdra can T2 Blissey with a single Bucks or Plus Power.

AMU can deal damage faster than Blissey, getting a 1 or 2 hit KO in a lot of cases.

Gallade will still be played. It will take a while for AMU, Kingdra, and other new decks to beat it down to a reasonable level.

I really like Blissey, but Blissey is just not the play against so many of the new decks. I can see Bliss doing OK vs Magnezone or maybe spread decks like Yanmega but I don't expect Blissey to do well vs the decks that are the most likely to make top cut.

 

[ShinySwampert]

OK but Basic Lv.xs are like stage 1s,then your playing Leafy X also which makes it a stage 2.

Also its the fact that your god hand can be disrupted by T1 Wager(Sableye). Magleaf can adjust and some people play the deck 3-3-1 Magmortar,then with those versions just go aggro Magmortar before you get all this. All I need is Magmortar and Lake Boundary to contend with the deck. You need Sceptile/Tangrowth/Shaymin Lv.X/several energy to even get a advantage over me.

LeafGreen is gonna be a good deck,but its easy to tech in Flareon in the deck also and get rolling to counter that. Im not denying LeafGreen isnt gonna be strong,but Maglutions>Tanglutions

A Stage 1 level X is not the same as a stage 2.

If you could Rare Candy Eevee into Leafeon Lv. X, you'd be right on. Any Level X takes a minimum of 2 turns to get into play, and for Stage 1-2 Lv. X's, you need a Rare Candy for a 2 turn level up.

I don't understand your point. Any deck can be messed up by a T-1 wager.

Tangleaftile can adjust to a Wager just as well as Magloutions, if not better, namely because Magleaf depends on a Lv. X, and Tangleaftile doesn't. I run 4-2-4 Sceptile in my Tangleaftile, 3-3 Tangrowth, and a ton of Supporters. None of the reasons you are giving puts Magleaf above Tangleaftile. You are simply expanding upon the fact that Tangleaftile is weak to fire.

If Lake Boundary is played, it's not the end of the world. Counter (Dawn) Stadium, Bubble Coat.

In Magleaf, you can't pull off the combo without setting up Leafeon Lv. X, which takes a minimum 3 turns if you're not running Rare Candy, and it has to be active. In Tangleaftile, Leafeon Lv.X is optional. The only card that is necessary for the combo is Sceptile GE, who can be set up T-1, on the bench. The New Tangrowth with the Regeneration Poke-Body, can do 60 to the active while spreading 20 to 2 bench for 2 energy, and you can do that while powering up GE Tangrowth for OHKO's. With the new Sceptile, no need to lose all your grass Energy when Tangrowth gets KOed; move them to a fresh Tangrowth before it does.

Tangleaftile being weak to Magleaf does not make Magleaf a better combo, and Bubble Coat nullifies your advantage for a turn, which is enough time for Tangrowth or Leafeon Lv.X to do 130+ and KO Mag/Mag Lv.X. Without the fire weakness, Tangleaftile would dominate Magleaf.

You don't think Magtran is a better Combo than Magleaf? No flip for a 30 burn? Recharge Flame Blast after a Bluster?

I still don't like Magleaf to beat Kingdra. Kingdra is way too fast. Everyone's saying "just bring up Leafeon Lv. X and Kingdra's useless." Terrible reasoning. If Kingdra is out T-1 or 2 (which it will be often), it will OHKO any Basic Pokemon in Maglutions for one energy. 60 to Eevee, 80 to Magmar, then 20 to the benched Eevee/Magmar. Leafeon Lv. X will probably never even see the field.

 

[Banette EX]

A Stage 1 level X is not the same as a stage 2.

If you could Rare Candy Eevee into Leafeon Lv. X, you'd be right on. Any Level X takes a minimum of 2 turns to get into play, and for Stage 1-2 Lv. X's, you need a Rare Candy for a 2 turn level up.

I don't understand your point. Any deck can be messed up by a T-1 wager.

Tangleaftile can adjust to a Wager just as well as Magloutions, if not better, namely because Magleaf depends on a Lv. X, and Tangleaftile doesn't. I run 4-2-4 Sceptile in my Tangleaftile, 3-3 Tangrowth, and a ton of Supporters. None of the reasons you are giving puts Magleaf above Tangleaftile. You are simply expanding upon the fact that Tangleaftile is weak to fire.

If Lake Boundary is played, it's not the end of the world. Counter (Dawn) Stadium, Bubble Coat.

In Magleaf, you can't pull off the combo without setting up Leafeon Lv. X, which takes a minimum 3 turns if you're not running Rare Candy, and it has to be active. In Tangleaftile, Leafeon Lv.X is optional. The only card that is necessary for the combo is Sceptile GE, who can be set up T-1, on the bench. The New Tangrowth with the Regeneration Poke-Body, can do 60 to the active while spreading 20 to 2 bench for 2 energy, and you can do that while powering up GE Tangrowth for OHKO's. With the new Sceptile, no need to lose all your grass Energy when Tangrowth gets KOed; move them to a fresh Tangrowth before it does.

Tangleaftile being weak to Magleaf does not make Magleaf a better combo, and Bubble Coat nullifies your advantage for a turn, which is enough time for Tangrowth or Leafeon Lv.X to do 130+ and KO Mag/Mag Lv.X. Without the fire weakness, Tangleaftile would dominate Magleaf.

You don't think Magtran is a better Combo than Magleaf? No flip for a 30 burn? Recharge Flame Blast after a Bluster?

I still don't like Magleaf to beat Kingdra. Kingdra is way too fast. Everyone's saying "just bring up Leafeon Lv. X and Kingdra's useless." Terrible reasoning. If Kingdra is out T-1 or 2 (which it will be often), it will OHKO any Basic Pokemon in Maglutions for one energy. 60 to Eevee, 80 to Magmar, then 20 to the benched Eevee/Magmar. Leafeon Lv. X will probably never even see the field.

When I refer a Stage 1 Lv.X to a Stage 2,Im saying if you don't have a candy to get it out,then you have to evolve then evolve again. Simple comparison.

Weakness alone kills deck in the field,see the decrease in Magmortar and no play since Empoleon is running rampant,Weakness plays a big part when playing a deck.

Tanleleaftile takes a Leafeon Lv.X + Tangrowth + Sceptile GE in order to be fully setup and contend, its easy for me to get a quick Magmortar with TM1-Evolution,yea you can do the same but once I go aggro Magmortar,how fast can you keep bubble coats coming,seeing as the deck would only play 2-3 at most.
You still need Shaymin Lv.X to protect your Sceptile form being sniped by Magmortar Lv.x to give it more HP,if not then your double growth body is done and the three to five energy means nothing.

I'm going to capitalize on weakness because that alot of the times decides a match up,the reason why Banette has such a good matchup vs GG,its speed and its type(Psychic). Either way,If grass gets really big,then Vappy is going for a Flareon tech and discard your energy while doing massive damage or OHKo with Boundary. Also since I have a 1-1 Heatran Lv.X line teched, I can just OHKO your pokes anyway since I will be Energy Forcing.

Its fine you counter stadium,since Im only going to drop Lake Boundary when I'm sure I'm going to KO.

Tran can be a 1-1 tech in Magleaf to constantly snipe all your pokes in Tangleaftile and also give me constant burn over you.

If kingdra is to fast,then it outspeeds your deck more than it outspeeds me,only thing you have is resistance,but you still need more pokemon to setup than me. Leafeon Lv.X makes a big difference in that matchup,I could snipe his Claydols before Magmortar Lv.X dies,giving me a advantage very quickly. Candy/Kingdra/Horsea/Baltoy/Claydol/Water/Water/Water in their hand is going to be on average how many times out of say 10 games,testing shows not very often at all.

Who said anything about the combo being better,I'm sayings it a better and more consistent deck since it is faster than you and can be teched better for a match up than yours.

 

[Scizor]

I don't really know what half these cards do (don't really care with Worlds coming up) but Magmortar is the best stage 1 ever printed and is better than Blissey in every way possible.

 

[ShinySwampert]

I don't really know what half these cards do (don't really care with Worlds coming up) but Magmortar is the best stage 1 ever printed and is better than Blissey in every way possible.

Except speed and HP.

Slowking is the best Stage 1 ever printed.

 

[Papi/Manny]

With Shaymin Lv. X that becomes 150. Since when was 110 HP on a Stage 1 bad?

It loses 5-6 Energy if you knock it out. IF you knock it out. Big deal. As I said, after your active gets OHKOed by Power Whip, if you can't KO Tangrowth on the next turn, you're going to lose. The way I play it, if Tangrowth is benched with 5 Energy attached (easy with Energy Forcing), and Wild Growth is in effect, Leafeon Lv.X's Verdant Dance will do 150 for 1 energy. If they knock out Leafeon, clean up with Tangrowth. Only thing that kills it is Scramble+Psychic cut.

Tangrowth heals while doing a respectable 60 for 2. IFDS Tangrowth does 60 and spreads 20 to 2 for 2 and removes damage each turn with it's body. Combined with Sceptile, both are better than Magmortar.
Blissey isn't horrible. It has 130 HP and built-in energy acceleration, which will be great for it in the next format. Yes, you can keep discarding and putting energy on Blissey. It isn't that hard. 130 damage is not easy to do with DRE and Scramble out of the format. Boost was good, but it wasn't what made Blissey playable. Blissey is fast, and in the next format. fast 1 energy attacks that do 40-60-80 will beat 3 energy 150 damage attackers

Yes, Magmortar, combos better with Leafeon Lv. X. Blissey doesn't need Leafeon Lv.X. However, Magleaf will not be the best combo in the next format. Tang-Leaf-tile with will be. Magleaf is slower, and less versitile.

Magmortar isn't as good as it used to be, either. Bronzong MD counters Magleaf hard. Kingdra and Bronzong MD/IFDS maybe? Maybe even Blissey/Kingdra.

Going offtopic I guess, 150 hp is sexy, but good luck getting 2 lvl Xs (1 basic, 1 stage 1), a stage 1, and a stage 2 rolling before the opponet has the game in thier hand. Shaymin is an extra bonus I guess, but this deck is already spelling slow and inconsistant (not to mention losing on time more then torterra). When I said it only has 110 hp, I didn't mean to say it has a low amount of hp for its stage, but it has an hp that is easy to OHKO/2HKO. By the time you have 5 energy on tanglegrowth and all that other stuff up, the opponet has already drawn 2-3 prizes and probly has a good 2-3 hitters up. I'll take a prize trade-off in that situation every time. 60 for 2, healing 3 and no retreat is fine with me (though it doesn't get that 2 shot), but its nothing special and 70 damage 2 shots it even with the healing. IFDS is too far in the furture to talk about. Combined with a stage 2, then yes they beat magmortar. Then when magmortar drops down a dusknoir and shuffles in your sceptile, magmortar is better. Blissey is horrible. Its an energy hog now, where we have boost and dre/scramble to abuse. It doesn't t2 anything now without abuse of pp/buck's (but then again, anything can do that now and say t2 KO) and that means its not fast, not great. 130 isn't easy to do, but I'd take doing 70 twice to KO you then taking 70 twice to KO me when you take 5 energy (and if I get the first strike, I easily start a trend of 2 hitting your blisseys for 3 shots on my guys). Actually fast 40-60-80 damage attakcs don't beat 150 damage attacks, espically hiding behind starters *cough*stableye*cough*resistance*cough*. I don't get how magleaf is slower. I'd take turbo magmortar over turbo tanglegrowth with no support every day. I'd take turbo magmortar with leafeon over turbo tanglegrowth with either sceptile or leafeon every day. Yes, when you get all three of those cards out, tanglegrowth becomes a good card and a threating card, but again, magmortar has plenty of options too (heck, if you want to go down the sceppy road, whose to say I don't run typhlosion either?).
Naki Feralkin: Beach made it so blissey had a prolonged surival time. Boost gave it attacking power. Next format is going to be about 1-2 energy attacks that do amazingly high damage. Blissey doesn't beat AMU. 90 hp and the ablity to keep swap out until you can charge god blast over and over again, along with uxie's memory out body, mean blissey can't continously take care of anything. Kingdra has a serverly obvious edge over blissey (besides the 130 damage OHKO first attack and spreading for 2 shots) and that is that it can retreat turn after turn and make blissey 3 shot it nearly every time (you do 70, retreat, ko you. If that 70 one comes up again and koes a blissey, that fresh blissey has to drop 2 pp to ko it). Garchomp is weak, but weakness doesn't matter when your running techs like dusknoir (resistance) and gallade nonono does it? I'd take a prize lose to get both of them up and running through your entire deck. Magmortar wasn't practical with empoleon around either, was it? And yet there were alot of magleaf decks there, no? Weakness isn't a huge deal now.

 

[ShinySwampert]

Going offtopic I guess, 150 hp is sexy, but good luck getting 2 lvl Xs (1 basic, 1 stage 1), a stage 1, and a stage 2 rolling before the opponet has the game in thier hand. Shaymin is an extra bonus I guess, but this deck is already spelling slow and inconsistant (not to mention losing on time more then torterra). When I said it only has 110 hp, I didn't mean to say it has a low amount of hp for its stage, but it has an hp that is easy to OHKO/2HKO. By the time you have 5 energy on tanglegrowth and all that other stuff up, the opponet has already drawn 2-3 prizes and probly has a good 2-3 hitters up. I'll take a prize trade-off in that situation every time. 60 for 2, healing 3 and no retreat is fine with me (though it doesn't get that 2 shot), but its nothing special and 70 damage 2 shots it even with the healing. IFDS is too far in the furture to talk about. Combined with a stage 2, then yes they beat magmortar. Then when magmortar drops down a dusknoir and shuffles in your sceptile, magmortar is better. Blissey is horrible. Its an energy hog now, where we have boost and dre/scramble to abuse. It doesn't t2 anything now without abuse of pp/buck's (but then again, anything can do that now and say t2 KO) and that means its not fast, not great. 130 isn't easy to do, but I'd take doing 70 twice to KO you then taking 70 twice to KO me when you take 5 energy (and if I get the first strike, I easily start a trend of 2 hitting your blisseys for 3 shots on my guys). Actually fast 40-60-80 damage attakcs don't beat 150 damage attacks, espically hiding behind starters *cough*stableye*cough*resistance*cough*. I don't get how magleaf is slower. I'd take turbo magmortar over turbo tanglegrowth with no support every day. I'd take turbo magmortar with leafeon over turbo tanglegrowth with either sceptile or leafeon every day. Yes, when you get all three of those cards out, tanglegrowth becomes a good card and a threating card, but again, magmortar has plenty of options too (heck, if you want to go down the sceppy road, whose to say I don't run typhlosion either?).
Naki Feralkin: Beach made it so blissey had a prolonged surival time. Boost gave it attacking power. Next format is going to be about 1-2 energy attacks that do amazingly high damage. Blissey doesn't beat AMU. 90 hp and the ablity to keep swap out until you can charge god blast over and over again, along with uxie's memory out body, mean blissey can't continously take care of anything. Kingdra has a serverly obvious edge over blissey (besides the 130 damage OHKO first attack and spreading for 2 shots) and that is that it can retreat turn after turn and make blissey 3 shot it nearly every time (you do 70, retreat, ko you. If that 70 one comes up again and koes a blissey, that fresh blissey has to drop 2 pp to ko it). Garchomp is weak, but weakness doesn't matter when your running techs like dusknoir (resistance) and gallade nonono does it? I'd take a prize lose to get both of them up and running through your entire deck. Magmortar wasn't practical with empoleon around either, was it? And yet there were alot of magleaf decks there, no? Weakness isn't a huge deal now.

110 will not be easy to do when DRE and Scramble are gone. The only guy who will be able to do that easily in the next format is Garchomp. You wouldn't need 5 energy on Tangrowth if you're using IFDS Tangrowth to start with. Just 2 energy and a Sceptile. Then build the GE Tangrowth while spreading with the other. Good luck KOing IFDS Tangrowth early before it scores 1-2 KO's and spreads the heck outta your bench.

IFDS is a little more than 3 months away. Not that far at all.

Dusknoir only works on bench sizes of 3+, which this deck does not require, if you don't use Claydol (which I do not). Typhlosion would be great. The only reason why Leafeon Lv.X was better this year is because it can attach special energy cards (and it resists water).

Didn't realize Kingdra had a free retreat. :nonono: Well... even if Blissey loses that match-up, still, Blissey isn't a bust. There's plenty of colorless weakness out there, and Blissey is still one of the fastest out there, if not the fastest. Blissey 2HKO's Sableye while powering up, most likely faster than the opposition.

For the Leafgreen combo to be pulled off, you don't need Shaymin Lv. X and Leafeon Lv.X. Just Shaymin, Tangrowth, and Sceptile. Leafeon Lv. X is a powerful alternative. A wild-growthed, gratituded IFDS Tangrowth is asuper-tank, and if you add Sunflora/Leftovers/Dawn Stadium, Tangrowth heals 40 on it's player's turn, and 10 on the opponents.

I played a build that used Sunflora to back up Tangrowth (wish I had a Dusknoir). He had a Shaymin start, next turn leveled up, and Seed Flared my active. About 2 turns later he had candied a Sceptile, and Tangrowth IFDS was out with 150HP, doing 60 and spreading 20 to 2. The thing was damn near impossible to KO, and when I did, he had another one set up. If that one was a GE Tangrowth, I'd have been in even more trouble.

Running stage 2 techs won't be as practical as it once was. Before, you could just scramble/dre and attack. Not anymore. I agree that weakness isn't a huge deal nowadays, but speed certainly is.

 

[empoleonperson]

what happens when i do lumineon plus dusknoir to your bench bye bye 5 energy tangrowth.

 

[ShinySwampert]

what happens when i do lumineon plus dusknoir to your bench bye bye 5 energy tangrowth.

It would be a better choice to Dark Palm Sceptile or Shaymin. Otherwise, that combo is pretty broken. It would work on just about any other deck just as well. I don't understand what you're getting at.

Would you really put Magmortar/Lumineon/Dusknoir/Claydol/Typhlosion/Leafeon Lv.X in your deck?

 

[Naki Feralkin]

Beach made it so blissey had a prolonged surival time

I'd like to note I didn't run a single beach in my Banbliss and I had quite a lot of survival time.

Boost gave it attacking power.

As did Pluspower and Strength Charm, and as will Bucks when it comes out. Really, Boost only guaranteed a few kills that I couldn't get immediately, which sped the kill process up a turn. And it was a great bluff tactic. Honestly, I don't see how loss of Boost should effect Bliss when I know quite a few good variants that did not run a single Boost and I sometimes did not even need them in my games.

Next format is going to be about 1-2 energy attacks that do amazingly high damage.

Which also at the same time require other things to sacrifice, such as discarding cards from hand or a quick setup, quick setup which also has low HP levels, which Blissey (And many variants) can 2 shot respectively.

Blissey doesn't beat AMU. 90 hp and the ablity to keep swap out until you can charge god blast over and over again, along with uxie's memory out body,

Would you honestly seriously put that much damage on that many guys with the fear of snipe around? I could easily just tech in a Bronzong to clean up the garbage once you've finished with your guerilla warfare, and Mightyena won't hesitate to stop a couple of pixies either. The problem people are missing is that Blissey is very efficient and can combo with a whole bunch of things, which can take care of the pixies like nothing. Against a pixie matchup, I only need 2-3 energies while setting up my bench. Vanilla blissey is not a smart move, because of everything that you just mentioned. Playing a good variant with Blissey can clean up AMU easily. Heck, even Mewtwo could work with it because it dumps energy that Bliss can pick up.

Its not about Blissey's damage, its the ability it has to work with others, plus its 130 HP on stage 1 and its growing damage.

Kingdra has a serverly obvious edge over blissey (besides the 130 damage OHKO first attack and spreading for 2 shots)

Again. vanilla Blissey obviously can't beat it. Other variants can.

I think the whole deal is people keep theory crafting and assume that this stuff will beat everyone. Wait until the stuff comes out before you make claims. Blissey may not be good with Leafeon, but its still better than people credit for, and when it starts to do well at BR's, I won't say I didn't tell you so.

 

[Papi/Manny]

110 will not be easy to do when DRE and Scramble are gone. The only guy who will be able to do that easily in the next format is Garchomp. You wouldn't need 5 energy on Tangrowth if you're using IFDS Tangrowth to start with. Just 2 energy and a Sceptile. Then build the GE Tangrowth while spreading with the other. Good luck KOing IFDS Tangrowth early before it scores 1-2 KO's and spreads the heck outta your bench.

IFDS is a little more than 3 months away. Not that far at all.

Dusknoir only works on bench sizes of 3+, which this deck does not require, if you don't use Claydol (which I do not). Typhlosion would be great. The only reason why Leafeon Lv.X was better this year is because it can attach special energy cards (and it resists water).

Didn't realize Kingdra had a free retreat. :nonono: Well... even if Blissey loses that match-up, still, Blissey isn't a bust. There's plenty of colorless weakness out there, and Blissey is still one of the fastest out there, if not the fastest. Blissey 2HKO's Sableye while powering up, most likely faster than the opposition.

For the Leafgreen combo to be pulled off, you don't need Shaymin Lv. X and Leafeon Lv.X. Just Shaymin, Tangrowth, and Sceptile. Leafeon Lv. X is a powerful alternative. A wild-growthed, gratituded IFDS Tangrowth is asuper-tank, and if you add Sunflora/Leftovers/Dawn Stadium, Tangrowth heals 40 on it's player's turn, and 10 on the opponents.

I played a build that used Sunflora to back up Tangrowth (wish I had a Dusknoir). He had a Shaymin start, next turn leveled up, and Seed Flared my active. About 2 turns later he had candied a Sceptile, and Tangrowth IFDS was out with 150HP, doing 60 and spreading 20 to 2. The thing was damn near impossible to KO, and when I did, he had another one set up. If that one was a GE Tangrowth, I'd have been in even more trouble.

Running stage 2 techs won't be as practical as it once was. Before, you could just scramble/dre and attack. Not anymore. I agree that weakness isn't a huge deal nowadays, but speed certainly is.

DRE/scramble gone hurts decks, but decks will adopt and become different then in the past. There are plenty of engines that can work in the next format. Notices how I said "OHKO/2HKO". 60 damage for 1/2 energy is very common next format. IFDS isn't the next set, so get over it. That tanglegrowth isn't coming out next set, meaning that players dont' even have to worry about it for now. This deck doesn't require 4 bench? Tangle active, tangle benched (you need a backup hitter, right), sceptile benched, claydol benched. Thats it. Wheres the leafeon? Wheres the next growth if the 2nd tangle goes down fast? Thats game right there if you can't get another one going fast enough. If you don't run claydol, I don't see how you survive an early wager with this deck, espically when your running 3 lines like you are. I was stating that I can add typhlosion to my magleaf deck to cover your point about sceptile making tanglegrowth better then magmortar. Kingdra has a 1 retreat, whcih only powers up its first attack more. Theres plenty of colorless weakness out there? Besides garchomp, the only other ones are dragonite (which is more of a fun card then anything), salamance (takes way too many energy to use next format), the latis (which, again, take too many energy),and rayquaza (which is only a tech and OHKOs blissey anyways), although I think I may have forgetten one. Anyways, colorless weakness isn't that common, and most of those cards, besides garchomp (which can easily topple blissey with techs with its own techs), will not be common. I believe stableye has colorless resistance, which means blissey needs to have 2 energy attachments and drops on it in order to t3 the card. That gives the opponet 6 supporters. Again, IFDS isn't coming out until after BRs. While healing that much is attractive on paper, its putting alot of resources on one card and 110 hp isn't high enough to say that it will live past 1-2 powerful hits. Whats the point of the story? I played a game with dragtrode and was down 6-1 on prizes and had 2 rocket's sneasel ex in play with 90 damage on them. And yet I won. Random tales are nice and all but don't prove anything. If speed is a big deal, why is nobody on bannettes case? t2 80 sounds good to me. :/ Speed is nice and consistancy is great too, but without ways to keep up momentum, its easy to counter the early advantage of speed with things beyond dre/scramble.
Naki Feralkin: Thats quite an unual play for todays format, but you ran boost. I was stating that blissey almost always runs one or both. Losing both hurts it (though obviously beach gone doesn't affect it at all, since dre/scramble/boost are all gone). If your going to run a good amount of buck's/pp (as I assume alot of decks will), why run a pokemon that swings for below average damage, or damage that becomes average when you discard multiple energy? Kingdra isn't the only quick and easy to charge pokemon out there. Blissey can start a 2 shot trend, but eventually loses on that cycle fast if it can't power up the benched ones (which is hard to do when most of the focus is on the active to get the two shot). Snipeing can hurt, but I don't see it when mesprit heals 30 off of all them for no energy, which counters your bronzong point. Mightyena only stalls out (which is a HORRIBLE idea against a deck that can do 200 damage turn after turn if you stall out enough), and is easily counters by a swich/ssu. How can you set up your bench with energy, when I'm placing 4-5 damage on them easily and 2 shotting them? It really doesn't work with others at all. It walls with others and sits there, trying to muster a quick few koes. Magmortar, which is opponet to blissey, does both. I don't see why blissey can be better then magmortar in any way. Techs can be shoved into any deck to help any matchup. What techs are you thinking of? Vire doesn't work very well and is slow. Electrode gives a prize trade-off, but allows kingdra to get a free swing on blissey. Leafeon hurts kingdra badly, but can be combined with any card, so saying blissey/leafeon beats kingdra is almost as easy as saying leafeon/magmortar does. I'll concede when blissey starts doing well at BRs that its still a grade A card. But dont' be surprized when what you assume is wrong as well.

 

[ShinySwampert]

Big post. Break it up next time, please.

Only guy doing 60 for one is Kingdra. Infernape does 80 for 2.

Don't need Claydol. Having plenty of draw Supporters and trainers help recovering from early Wagers just fine, unless it's a wager/absol/porygon2(mars) type thing. Prof. Rowan. POV. Early wagers are rare, anyway (unless playing Gardie, who can wager as soon as Gardie is set up), as they can hurt both players. Claydol is becoming a liability. Find other ways.

Don't really need Leafeon. Just Sceptile. Using a starter like Celebi (since we're talking pre-IFDS), Tangrowth can have 6 energy by turn 3. That's 120.

Sceptile>Typhlosion. Bodies are untouchable. Powers can be Primal Clawed/P-locked etc. Typh doesn't do for Mag what Scep does for Tang.

110 early in the game is great. Who does 60 to Tangy for 1-2 (besides Kingdra, who would only do 40 a turn max) which sill doesn't 2HKO, unless you use weakness? Beedrill maybe? that's 2hkoed, and then Claydol gets whipped (though Tangy might have trouble with the speed.)

Not trying to prove that Tangleaftile is the BDIF (it obviously ain't) just that it's better than many give credit, and when set up, the damage output is higher than just about any other deck.

 

[Papi/Manny]

Big post. Break it up next time, please.

Only guy doing 60 for one is Kingdra. Infernape does 80 for 2.

Don't need Claydol. Having plenty of draw Supporters and trainers help recovering from early Wagers just fine, unless it's a wager/absol/porygon2(mars) type thing. Prof. Rowan. POV. Early wagers are rare, anyway (unless playing Gardie, who can wager as soon as Gardie is set up), as they can hurt both players. Claydol is becoming a liability. Find other ways.

Don't really need Leafeon. Just Sceptile. Using a starter like Celebi (since we're talking pre-IFDS), Tangrowth can have 6 energy by turn 3. That's 120.

Sceptile>Typhlosion. Bodies are untouchable. Powers can be Primal Clawed/P-locked etc. Typh doesn't do for Mag what Scep does for Tang.

110 early in the game is great. Who does 60 to Tangy for 1-2 (besides Kingdra, who would only do 40 a turn max) which sill doesn't 2HKO, unless you use weakness? Beedrill maybe? that's 2hkoed, and then Claydol gets whipped (though Tangy might have trouble with the speed.)

Not trying to prove that Tangleaftile is the BDIF (it obviously ain't) just that it's better than many give credit, and when set up, the damage output is higher than just about any other deck.

1) Its not my problem how I post and how people try to counter my points.
2) If you think those are the only 2 pokemon that can swing for that much early game, you need to do some searching.
3) Droping claydol gives you 4 more draw supporters then normal. If a normal list runs 8 draw supporters, you are running 12. An early wager (which can easily be done t2 if the player gets claydol out) can cripple you to a 3 card hand. If you get one of those draw, you can be up to 6. But that hand size means you're going to be relying on topdecking for pretty much the entire game. Claydol is becoming a liablity? Consistantcy is being threatened then. I know there are alot of answers to claydol within the next 2 sets, but claydol is still the play in most of the decks.
4) Yes it can. It can also be pokeblowered up t3 and smashed about. :/ You're assuming you get your starter, constant energy drops, the opponet not rushing your 60 hp basic, and that you get a stage 1 and 2 early game. All with simple drawing cards. Sounds consistant.
5) As far as I can tell, typhlosion is better. Sceptile jacks up your pokemon's energy supply, but doesn't do anything if that pokemon gets koed and loses all that energy. Typhlosion can recover and help excelerate benched mamgortars. Also, aerodactl is about as common as a gnome.
6) How about you pokepedia that to find your answer? If you really think theres nothing else that can do that amount of damage early game, then be my guest and play growth. And I wouldn't put any money on growth beating beedrill at all (it obviously beats kingdra).
7) Of course when its set-up it does rediculous things. Alot of decks, such as garchomp and ferligatr, can say that. The problem is that its not looking very consistant.