Tricky vs. Deceptive Behavior (updated 2/12)

[DarthPika]

I still don't see that being any different from TGW mind games that EVERYONE uses, but if its not allowed, fine.

Is holding up a card IF it is actually a power spray ok? You can't possibly say its deceptive play. >_>

 

[SD PokeMom]

darthpika: didn't we already have this 'power spray deception' discussion on the OP professor boards? and wasn't the response the same, it's not acceptable and will be penalized?

and now you're surprised you're getting the SAME replies from the same judges who told you months ago this isn't acceptable gameplay?

'mom

 

[yoyofsho16]

Bravo to RA. You are the greatest Poke Dad EVER. Seriously.

Although, I think that your example for "deceptive play" for Azelf's Time Walk isn't a good example. Deceptive is saying lies or messing with your opponent when what you tell them could/couldn't be true, to their discretion. That's like saying, "Man, my Regigigas X is prized!" It could or couldn't be true, you don't need to tell your opponent, it could change their strategy, therefore being deceptive.

Your example with Azelf is just straight up cheating. You did what Time Walk says NOT to do.

 

[Sunscorch]

Obviously, just from looking at the posts in this thread alone, you can see that this is a controversial area of TCG play. I'm sure it's the same in all games, just as much as pokemon.

I think the line can only be drawn at the point where ambiguity is removed. For example, smiling at a draw, or muttering at an opponents move when in fact your mood is the opposite is, in my humble opinion, simply shrewd play. An experienced opponent should be totally unfazed.

However, making comments that hold no ambiguity, such as "Yes! Exactly what I needed!", or "I wouldn't do that unless you want to waste it on a Power Spray..." are over the line.

Again, though, it's fuzzy, and a judge should be called for a decision if you feel your opponent is overstepping the mark.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Murder falls under the umbrella of "anti-social" behavior.
But you don't discuss it as the lowest common denominator.
You discuss it as the much higher level that it is.

When PUI outlaws deceptive behavior, they're not talking about cheating because that is already a much higher offense.

Thank you for coming in PokePop. :thumb:

I was hoping you'd drop by and HELP me fine tune the definition of the act of Deceptive play.
I was working HARD to think of good examples, and came up with those in hopes people would say "no.. THIS is a better example of deceptive play"

I'll go up there and drop some better examples. With Power Spray and other things coming around the corner, I just really felt it necessary to plant the seed in people's minds that they want to be a good player and not a deceitful one.

Thanks again PokePop. Knew I could count on you there. :smile:

 

[Godzfirefly]

How is holding up a random card from your hand ANY different then acting like your hand is junk so your opponent will wager you, or acting like a key card is prized? IMO they really arn't any different. As far as I remember bluffing only is only considerd deception when you start to lie in someway about what you have.

IMO, they aren't different either. They're all deceptive behavior that runs counter to the Spirit of the Game. None of those should be considered proper conduct for a pokemon player.

 

[Lawman]

How is holding up a random card from your hand ANY different then acting like your hand is junk so your opponent will wager you, or acting like a key card is prized? IMO they really arn't any different. As far as I remember bluffing only is only considerd deception when you start to lie in someway about what you have.

Setting a copy of Dusknoir so your opponent can SEE it is VERY different than holding up a face down card as if your preparing a power spray. Having a Dusknoir there is very obviously meant to lead your opponent to believe that you have dusknoir in your deck. Now holding up a card could be ANYTHING. They don't have to believe it, and they may not even know what your trying to do. Can we please get some form of ruling on this?

I think 'Pop answered your Q a few posts above. It is wrong. It doesn't matter if the card IS Spray or not. You are TRYING to INFLUENCE the play of your oppo. IF you have the spray, just hold it with the other cards and when they go to uxie or claydol, DROP the spray (if you want to use it then).

Keith

 

[DarthPika]

darthpika: didn't we already have this 'power spray deception' discussion on the OP professor boards? and wasn't the response the same, it's not acceptable and will be penalized?

and now you're surprised you're getting the SAME replies from the same judges who told you months ago this isn't acceptable gameplay?

'mom

I don't think I ever asked that on the prof fourms, as I havn't been on for a while.

What I don't understand that holding a card up is considerd "not acceptable", when its perfectly fine to act like a key card is prized, or that you have a lousy hand. :/

 

[baby mario]

I don't think I ever asked that on the prof fourms, as I havn't been on for a while.

What I don't understand that holding a card up is considerd "not acceptable", when its perfectly fine to act like a key card is prized, or that you have a lousy hand. :/

Maybe because hinting that you have Power Spray could have a direct effect on your opponent's play, making them hold on to an Uxie, say.

Just hinting you have a bad hand or prizes isn't going to affect the opponent's strategy in that immediate way. It might make them overconfident, but it won't make them hesitate over playing a set up card.

 

[DarthPika]

Maybe because hinting that you have Power Spray could have a direct effect on your opponent's play, making them hold on to an Uxie, say.

Just hinting you have a bad hand or prizes isn't going to affect the opponent's strategy in that immediate way. It might make them overconfident, but it won't make them hesitate over playing a set up card.

Lets say I lead my opponent to think that my (X) card is prized. It could very well cause them to make plays that they otherwise wouldn't have made. It's really the same thing.

 

[vegitalian]

I can understand why this would be frowned upon at the Junior and Senior divisions; however, if poker and other TCGs/CCGs have allowed bluffing at their high level events, why is Pokemon's OP so strict against it (again, at the master's level)?

Highly skilled players wouldn't allow their plans to be influenced by bluffing, so I think it distinguishes players who show finesse vs. players that copy good decks off the internet and play them the way people tell them to play it.

The thinking component adds so much more to the game IMHO.

 

[SD PokeMom]

I don't think I ever asked that on the prof fourms, as I havn't been on for a while.

What I don't understand that holding a card up is considerd "not acceptable", when its perfectly fine to act like a key card is prized, or that you have a lousy hand. :/

i just sent you the link to your less-than-a-month-old post; i won't post it here as the OP boards are closed forums.

'mom

 

[dave628]

One of my personal favorite ways to trick opponents is playing little mind games during the battle. Nothing that's cheating, but stuff that will make them think twice before doing a move.

For example, lets say I'm using a G deck, and my opponent is using kingdra.

I have 3 G pokemon in play and its my opponents 2nd turn. They have no claydol in play and are still setting up. My opponent playes a roseanne, and searches the deck. While they do this I hold up a card (so they can't see what it is) as if I'm getting ready to power spray the Uxie that they want to take. Seeing this, they take a Baltoy instead, buying me extra time. I don't even NEED a power spray in my hand to hold of Uxie drops. Just reminding your opponent that you MIGHT have one can be very powerfull, and quite tricky.

After the game you can tell them, "ya, remember that power spray I was holding up in the beginning of the game? Well, it really was just a water energy." lol

Let's say that one of my opponent is doing the same thing that DarthPika is describing. If i decide to play uxie regardless and they did not powerspray, can I then call the judge for perceive unsportmanship?

 

[the_sniper]

One of my personal favorite ways to trick opponents is playing little mind games during the battle. Nothing that's cheating, but stuff that will make them think twice before doing a move.

For example, lets say I'm using a G deck, and my opponent is using kingdra.

I have 3 G pokemon in play and its my opponents 2nd turn. They have no claydol in play and are still setting up. My opponent playes a roseanne, and searches the deck. While they do this I hold up a card (so they can't see what it is) as if I'm getting ready to power spray the Uxie that they want to take. Seeing this, they take a Baltoy instead, buying me extra time. I don't even NEED a power spray in my hand to hold of Uxie drops. Just reminding your opponent that you MIGHT have one can be very powerfull, and quite tricky.

After the game you can tell them, "ya, remember that power spray I was holding up in the beginning of the game? Well, it really was just a water energy." lol

This post is indicative of the way you play. I know 1st hand watching you try to take an 8 minute
turn against me last year at Nats., then dropping the SECOND Clay Mitchell gave us a 5 minute extension ( as I take my last 4 prizes the next turn I got to win, you saw it).

What your suggesting here is borderline cheating imho. You are trying to deceive your opponent
and i don't believe this is legal.If you have the spray, great. Use it ( if you have the required pokes in play). But don't try to alter what he/she gets w/ their roseanne's by acting like you have the spray ( wether you do or not).

I liked Keith's way of handling nonsense like this and I hope others do the same.

I angle shot Andrew Cox at Nats. last year- cost me a game loss ( deserved) and a shot to
play at table 1. I learned my lesson.

Pika, i hope you learn some lessons on gamesmanship as - from what I've seen and read- you could
use to.

 

[Master_Whiscash_77]

I think a simple comparison of this is that a tricky player in poker is good at bluffing and has a good poker face, while a deceptive player is hiding cards up his sleeve.

 

[Happiny13]

I dont really think your opponent would know if it was or was not a power spray. Many times people just hold a random card up.

 

[DarthPika]

This post is indicative of the way you play. I know 1st hand watching you try to take an 8 minute
turn against me last year at Nats., then dropping the SECOND Clay Mitchell gave us a 5 minute extension ( as I take my last 4 prizes the next turn I got to win, you saw it).

What your suggesting here is borderline cheating imho. You are trying to deceive your opponent
and i don't believe this is legal.If you have the spray, great. Use it ( if you have the required pokes in play). But don't try to alter what he/she gets w/ their roseanne's by acting like you have the spray ( wether you do or not).

I liked Keith's way of handling nonsense like this and I hope others do the same.

I angle shot Andrew Cox at Nats. last year- cost me a game loss ( deserved) and a shot to
play at table 1. I learned my lesson.

Pika, i hope you learn some lessons on gamesmanship as - from what I've seen and read- you could
use to.

If I took an 8min turn against you, it wasn't intentional. I had gotten NO sleep the night before, and by the end of the day I was really REALLY out of it. (when I don't get enough sleep I tend to get really slow doing things) Sorry if you thought I was trying to stall you out. I'm really against stalling, and I never would intentionally try and stall anyone out of a win.

If its not allowed then I'm fine. I just really don't get why its ok to play other little mind games, and this is being compared to cheating.

 

[Lawman]

Let's say that one of my opponent is doing the same thing that DarthPika is describing. If i decide to play uxie regardless and they did not powerspray, can I then call the judge for perceive unsportmanship?

Dont wait until you drop the Uxie and see if they play a spray or not. Call the Judge while he/she is holding the single card up while you are searching. That is the issue. The INFLUENCE. Not what the card actually is. Even if the card is spray, I will explain/caution the player to simply wait until the power is invoked and then play the spray (if you want to block it).

Look, I know the stakes are being raised going into States, Reg's and Nats....but SotG still exists and is part of the rules. At league or home, friendly banter/asking about cards in hand (for the win) etc is fine. At a tourney, those behaviors should be left at home. Come, play, have fun, win or lose.....show SotG.

I honestly don't like the sighs, eye rolls, expressions of poor hands or displaying of cards to their neigbor/friend (at set up) for god or horrible hands. Esp. in the MA division. You all should know better. Just play the game.

Keith

 

[M_Liesik]

This sort of dissection of how far you can bend the rules before you break them can be summed up in one word: Gamesmanship.

7.6.2. Major
Players are expected to behave in a respectful manner to all attendees and staff of a Pokémon TCG event. Players who don’t behave properly need to be reminded to with the issuance of a penalty. Infractions in this category have a direct impact on event operation or cause a small degree of emotional distress to those around them.

Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Major include:

• Leaving a large amount of garbage in the tournament area.
• Failure to comply with the instructions of the event staff.
• Engaging in gamesmanship/rules lawyering.
• Attempting to manipulate a match through intimidation or distraction.
• Refusal to sign a match slip.
• Defacing the tournament area.
• Making legal plays which have no effect on the game in progress to manipulate the time remaining in a match.
• Playing slowly to manipulate the time remaining in a match.

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Prize Card
Tier 2: Game Loss

As a side note, whenever I see a Professor receive a penalty for Gamesmanship, it really makes me wonder if they're a good fit for the program.

 

[chetabear]

This is the reason darthpika is a sith,

pokemon is for kids, poker is not
so do your bluffing with your pokerkiddies not your pokekiddies