Tricky vs. Deceptive Behavior (updated 2/12)

[afstandopleren]

Ok listen, different people want different things from the game. You want one thing i want another. SotG, is also a matter of interpritation what wrong and whats not. People like me, and ninetails honestly bevieve that if we are intimidated its our fault for letting it get to us. Not our opponents for being unfair tward us.

If you expect something different from THIS game, then don't play. Period.
And not everyone is like you. And I seriously think it's a wrong to think that the 'blame' is on you for letting people get to you. There are numerous things that can push someone's buttons...

Pokemon, does require an oppertunity cost, even if its only time. Everything, requires an oppertunity cost, thats kind of the defininition. And these "technicalities" you speak off, you do realize that having a good deck is at least half the game...

opportunity costs? Never heard of, care to explain?

Finally you're using Ash from pokemon, a fictional charachter, as an example. I think most people in this discussion aren't nine.

-_-' People watch the program with their kids or know him from other sources. You don't have to be nine to know him....

Now, I have an idea. Because a good point was brought up. A 14 year old intimidating and 11 year old is much different than a 17 year old intimindating a 25 year old. So why don't we adjust the rules based on the division .

I actually think that that is a decent idea. As long as the rules get stricter the older you get
(sorry for the atrocious spelling)

Responds in bold.

 

[ApachePrime]

So, now your saying that if I've been drawing dead for a few turns(probably obviously frusterated at it), and I suddenly I draw the winning card, I'm not allowed to bluff so my opponent doesn't realize that I have a potential game winning card in my hand? Brother...

If I draw X card that can win the game for me on the next turn, I am NOT going to act like I have anything. Letting your opponent know that you just drew a good card is STUPID.

I don't see how you could get this response from that post. You cannot pretend you have a card you do not have in order to influence your opponent. This is what we're arguing about. We're talking about waving a card around to change what your opponent is thinking of doing. This is a dubious game action, and it deserves to be penalized.

Saying what you just drew is not a dubious game action, it's just stupid. There's a clear difference.

 

[DarthPika]

You miss my point. Whats the difference between bluffing by holding a card a certain way, and pretending that that you drew another dead card when you really have the winning move for next turn? Your "lying" both times, one about something you don't have, and the other, something you do have.

 

[Godzfirefly]

You miss my point. Whats the difference between bluffing by holding a card a certain way, and pretending that that you drew another dead card when you really have the winning move for next turn? Your "lying" both times, one about something you don't have, and the other, something you do have.

In the first case, you're trying to mislead the opponent in an attempt to cause them to misplay around a card. This is intentionally malicious and wrong.

In the second case, you are simply concealing information and allowing the player to base their decisions on only what the cards are/aren't. Which is the way it should be anyway.

 

[DarthPika]

In the first case, you're trying to mislead the opponent in an attempt to cause them to misplay around a card. This is intentionally malicious and wrong.

In the second case, you are simply concealing information and allowing the player to base their decisions on only what the cards are/aren't. Which is the way it should be anyway.

No, in the second case I am also trying to mislead my opponent to play differently and not mess with my hand via wager/tina/etc. If I act like I drew into yet another dead card, yes, it is misleading my opponent. :/

 

[yoyofsho16]

So, now your saying that if I've been drawing dead for a few turns(probably obviously frusterated at it), and I suddenly I draw the winning card, I'm not allowed to bluff so my opponent doesn't realize that I have a potential game winning card in my hand? Brother...

If I draw X card that can win the game for me on the next turn, I am NOT going to act like I have anything. Letting your opponent know that you just drew a good card is STUPID.

If you say, "YES I just drew the best card ever!" and don't play down "the best card ever" then yes, that would be against the rules.

If you are saying that you have an automatic reaction and shout "YES!" or something, that's fine. I'm just not sure if I understand what you're saying, but I covered both ways it could be read.

 

[DarthPika]

So, now I can't be happy if I draw a REALLY bad card? This is just getting stupid.

 

[yoyofsho16]

What? Why would you be happy?
Screaming "I GOT A GOOD CARD" when you got an awful card is deceptive play.

 

[The Captain]

In rersponse to afstandopleren;

Thats my point not everyone is like me. And obviously not everyone is like you. So why not try to makes some accomodations for both.

An oppertunity cost is an economic term, that is a cost for doinging something. Let me give an example of an explicit cost first. You buying a pack of cards the money is the explicit cost. The other things you could have spent the money on, or the oppertunity to purcase other items are the opperunity costs. In the respect of playing a game your time is the explicit cost, and what else you could have been doing is the oppertunity cost. I hope that makes sense.

People know 'ash' but most people over nine can't relate to him or how he acts.

I think for masters the game needs to be strickter in some respects( sloppy play) ande more lenient in oithers( bluffing)

 

[Scipio]

In rersponse to afstandopleren;

Thats my point not everyone is like me. And obviously not everyone is like you. So why not try to makes some accomodations for both.

Because Pokemon upholds core values to which everybody should confirm. If you can't confirm to those values, what are you doing playing Pokemon?

I think for masters the game needs to be strickter in some respects( sloppy play) ande more lenient in oithers( bluffing)

So you'd be more lenient on stuff like that when you can pit a 16 year old kid against a 40 year old man? My sister (16YO) plays very scarcely, like two tournaments a year. Fortunately people around here know that so they treat her well enough. If she had to face people like you, who just bully their way through by using deceptive play, then what fun is it for someone like her to go to tournaments?

I brought up my sister because players like her (Which there ARE a lot of) get a bad image from the game due to people like you. This game isn't all about being cut-throat OMG I MUST WIN TO HAVE FUN. ****, I got donked twice last sunday yet aside from that the tournament was pretty fun, riddle me that. People like you might be better off leaving the game - that will stop putting off potentional newcomers.

 

[The Captain]

I brought up my sister because players like her (Which there ARE a lot of) get a bad image from the game due to people like you. This game isn't all about being cut-throat OMG I MUST WIN TO HAVE FUN. ****, I got donked twice last sunday yet aside from that the tournament was pretty fun, riddle me that. People like you might be better off leaving the game - that will stop putting off potentional newcomers.

Right, better off for who? You? Your sister?
Because its certainly not better off for me. It's not better for my friends who play. So ask me if i care.

Because Pokemon upholds core values to which everybody should confirm. If you can't confirm to those values, what are you doing playing Pokemon?

Yea because you say that doesn't make it true.

 

[elekid_957]

sometimes when someone is using roseannes or whatever, i move a cards in my hand to the front (about 50-60% of the time it IS power spray) is that cheating? it may influence them but i didn't actually do it on purpose.... i think these power spray things (such as moving a card in your hand up a little) are just partly you sub-conscious saying, OMG A SLIGHT MOVEMENT WAS MADE BY OPPONENT-LOOKOUTLOOKOUTLOOKOUT!

 

[yoshi1001]

It appears some people here are having difficulty with the idea of being subjectively judged. I, personally, would hate to see an environment where the only means of adjudication was objective. As has been mentioned before, such a system would open itself to "barely passable" behavior and severely stilted outcomes.

You'll just have to trust that the staff knows you well enough to differentiate between unintentional behavior and deliberate manipulation.

 

[DarthPika]

It appears some people here are having difficulty with the idea of being subjectively judged. I, personally, would hate to see an environment where the only means of adjudication was objective. As has been mentioned before, such a system would open itself to "barely passable" behavior and severely stilted outcomes.

You'll just have to trust that the staff knows you well enough to differentiate between unintentional behavior and deliberate manipulation.

Take a look at homeofmews states report. I think its quite obvious that the judges are going to be VERY strict with anything related to power spray.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

In rersponse to afstandopleren;

People know 'ash' but most people over nine can't relate to him or how he acts.

The SHOW drives the card game.

I do sit and watch it along my daughter and wife.
The show helps me make sense of the card game in a fun way.
You sort-of understand WHY the cards are the way they are.
So, yeah... I find that co-releation kinda cool.

IF the card game is to emmulate the Animated Series, then I believe the SPIRIT of the main characters is what WE are trying to emmulate.. no ?

ANYWAY...

Somehow, this thread got TWISTED into "if you do ANYTHING, you're wrong!"

Nope. That's getting away from the main point.

The MAIN POINT of this thread is to discuss your INTENT.
It doesn't really matter whether you "get caught" doing anything or not, I'm trying to curb your enthusiasm concerning WILLINGFULLY MALICIOUS beheavior.

I don't mind someone being shrewd and tricky - hard-to-figure. That's awesome!

I'm trying to "minister" to those who INTENTIONALLY do deceptive things that aren't aligned w/ the spirit of the game.

People keep talking about "A LINE"... dude... there IS NO LINE! Either you INTEND to do wrong or you do not INTEND to do wrong.
It's not whether you got caught or not. I'm just saying the fact that you INTEND to do something outside the SOTG should cause you to check yourself.

BTW - EXCELLENT explanation of opportunity cost Captain!

I appreciate how we're having an honest DEBATE and noone is getting extraneously HEATED in here. Thank goodness you've not resorted to name calling.
Thank you all for the civil approach that you have taken

P.S.
(WAY off topic question: who's going to the Regionals in Richmond VA by the way?)

 

[mozartrules]

In rersponse to afstandopleren;

Thats my point not everyone is like me. And obviously not everyone is like you. So why not try to makes some accomodations for both.

Pokemon USA designs this game and the tournaments to support the players in such a way as to maximize their business profit by selling more cards (their shareholders would be very upset if they didn't). This includes making sure that it is inclusive to a large number of players.

They arrange the tournaments the way they see fit and that includes heavy emphasis on avoiding gamesmanship and any form of intimidation. The judges are expected to enforce that. You are free to arrange non-sanctioned tournaments if you want tournaments run differently.

So any deliberate action taken with the purpose if influencing your opponent's actions is off limit unless it is part of your natural game actions. You can technically tell the opponent what you just drew, but you can not misrepresent facts so you have to be honest (so you are unlikely to do so (*)). This even goes as far as you cannot sit down and think when you have nothing to think about (trying to convince the opponent that you have options), at least not without making an excuse so the opponent doesn't get misled.

This is really a very simple principle and you should not let the fact that it can be difficult to catch some of these transgressions make you believe that they are allowed.

(*)
If you told me what you drew I would call a judge to get your hand checked. Trouble would likely ensure if your hand didn't include that card.

 

[Lawman]

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.


If an adult feels intimidated then what of a child?
The victims fault, Crying to the Judges, Grin and bear it, Take it like an adult? This is the language used to justify bullying.

There is no place for such intimidation in this game.

Thank you Ian. I guess I am not the only "crazy judge guy" here.

Sorry Nick, I am not going into this with you anymore. You have shown your intentions here. You dont see anything wrong with DP's actions. If that is the case, maybe you ought not judge anymore. I made my point. No need to argue with someone that is wrong. I notice you haven't called out PokePop (or anyone else that agrees with me)....he said DP's actions were wrong too. Funny how that happens

Keith

 

[ShadowCard]

@Ninetales: forget to post that while I was logged in on Saturday?

If I were DarthPika's opponent in that situation, I would probably feel intimidated. However, it's my fault for letting it get to me. I wouldn't go crying to the judges that someone is doing something that I don't like. I'd grin and bear it. I'd take it like an adult.

But then what kind of intimidation warrents the penalty for intimidation? Children aren't the only people who get intimidated.
While both players may not have a problem with it, it is wrong of a judge to not penalize intimidation. You also do an injustice to event integrity because you didn't bring the unsporting conduct to the staff's attention, so that player can now move on and do it again and the staff won't have prior knowledge of it happening before.

The problem with your argument, nintales, is that DarthPika's INTENT was to fool the opponent. If he mistakenly holds a card above his hand and his opponent believes it is a Power Spray, that is their fault. Hand motions, eyes, facial expression, all of these things can make a clear line between a mistake and a clear attempt at fooling the opponent. That is not allowed in any circumstance.

There is no rule against fooling the opponent as long as it isn't done through lying. There is a rule against tricking the opponent into making an illegal action.
In DarthPika's first post with his example, he isn't saying anything. The opponent also has not been tricked into making an illegal play. However, for me, the problem with DarthPika's example is that he seperates a card from the rest of his hand. This comes off to me as intimidation. If DarthPika would instead smile as his opponent selects an Uxie... well, are you going to tell me you don't smile while playing this game?

If you say, "YES I just drew the best card ever!" and don't play down "the best card ever" then yes, that would be against the rules.

In a way, you can't prove that because, in the context of the moment, it could have been "the best card ever" but then something can happen during the course of a turn to change that. But on the other hand, this definitely sounds like intimidation. From what I have gathered, it is best to say nothing in this case. Draw the card, chuckle, and move on.

 

[ninetales1234]

If DarthPika would instead smile as his opponent selects an Uxie... well, are you going to tell me you don't smile while playing this game?

I'm glad you brought up smiling. Smiling makes me wonder: what's the cutoff point for this intimidation/deceptive behaviour/bluffing stuff? Where does it begin and end?
If we're talking about a player making facial expressions and nothing else, if somebody smiled during my turn while getting an Uxie, I might be afraid of what he's got planned. If my opponent smiled while drawing a card from his deck, I might be afraid. There are plenty of facial expressions people can use and some of them are bound to be intimidating.

Facial expressions are part of human nature. It just happens. Should we criticize/penalize people for the look on their face during a match? And then are we to differentiate between "good smiles" and "bad smiles"? I know I smile while playing the game, cos I'm having so much fun.

Is it my fault if I don't catch my opponent slipping an extra Roseanne's Research into his deck, too?

Of course it's not your fault.

You dont see anything wrong with DP's actions.

I think that's already been established.

No need to argue with someone that is wrong.

No need to persuade me? No need to possibly bring me to your side?

I notice you haven't called out PokePop (or anyone else that agrees with me)

I called you out because of your post that I found very condescending:

Sorry, but THAT tactic is WRONG on so many levels. IF you cannot see the logic to this, there is no reason to discuss this any further with you.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

Why?
Like I said to Lawman, before. If there is something here that's so obvious, that I'm missing, I'd like to know what it is. Why shouldn't it be allowed? If you folks think I'm too stupid to understand it, try it anyway. Dumb it down for me.:biggrin: Come on. Humor me.

@Lawman: it is obvious that you're not interested in any substantive discourse here, so I think I will just leave you with a quote to sum up my feelings:

If they’re so sure they’re right, what are they afraid of? If they’re so sure their position is unassailable, let the other guy talk, then blow him out of the water and say, "You fool! You didn’t know this, this, and this!’"

 

[Godzfirefly]

Why?
Like I said to Lawman, before. If there is something here that's so obvious, that I'm missing, I'd like to know what it is. Why shouldn't it be allowed? If you folks think I'm too stupid to understand it, try it anyway. Dumb it down for me.:biggrin: Come on. Humor me.

I think a number of us have been trying to explain our view to you. In addition, the viewpoint had been repeatedly explained before you had even posted. I understand if you feel the need to play Devil's Advocate and/or defend DarthPika. That is perfectly respectable, especially if you truly agree with the viewpoint.

But, it is rather odd that you've chosen one particular individual to 'call out' as the representative of the opposing viewpoint. Especially if you feel that individual was being 'condescending.'

If you honestly cannot understand the reasoning behind the opinion that intimidation is wrong in general and the example DarthPika is wrong in specific, then please explain what part you have difficulty with. Ask questions. Help advance the discussion. I know that I, for one, would be glad to have an open, honest discussion about this topic.


As a side-note: The example that DarthPika provided (with the Power Spray) is a very good case-study, showing a borderline example where we can discuss intent vs action. Kudos to DarthPika for being willing and thoughtful enough to provide the example.