Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Well... I Can't Outplay the Judges...

The HJ told me that I gained a significant advantage and so I, therefore, was receiving a game loss. That was all that was said. Although this is a reason, I feel "significant advantage" is vague enough to where it needs further explanation. As I said in an above post, the guidelines say the head judge must DETERMINE, that there is a significant advantage gained, and I believe that there wasn't much determining at all. The way things played out, it seemed that because I saw one of my prizes, then the assumption is that I gained a significant advantage. I strongly believe there is much more to the situation than this. My argument for this side of the coin is simple: in the face of a serious penalty, investigative work is necessary to determine whether or not it is the correct one or not. The judges asked me if I knew what prize I drew, and I said yes and held it up for them. They then discussed for awhile and announced the penalty. This, in my opinion, is not enough to determine this "significant advantage."

As I've stated before this is my first offense for anything related to taking a prize without KO'ing a Pokemon, at least, from what I remember. If I have been warned for this before, then it was a caution or a warning and it happened a while ago, but I know for a fact that the judges did not access my record or inform me that the penalty was escalated because of a prior infraction.

I do BELIEVE (strongly) that I said "Zen Blade" and nothing more. It's possible that I subconsciously said "KO" but I was being careful (due to Power Spray) to clearly announce everything, including attacks. I think Clay's second opinion on this would be worthwhile, however.
 
Slamming players or Slamming judges is counter-productive.

Not many GL penalties are handed out at tournaments across the whole year. This alone ensures that they receive scrutiny after the fact. Whicker has made his point, what he and other players may not be aware of is that judges take a players perspective over these calls. There is no them and us. A great deal of thought does go into these penalties both before the event, at the event, and after the event. In order for judges to feel safe to express their views and even to admit mistakes these discussion are not carried out in public.

The issue has been raised. Wheels are in motion.
 
GinoLombardi21 said:
I bet the judge who gave u the game loss is really good friends with ur top 16 opponent. IM SICK OF JUDGES DECIDING GAMES!!!
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Gino, This statement worries me. I'd like to say I'm everyone's friend. There isn't a person that plays Pokemon that I know that I wouldn't want to be friends with. As a judge, friendship isn't a factor. Every player receives the same treatment. I treat this fact very seriously, as do a great deal of judges.

If judges are deciding your games, then perhaps you are making Game Play/Procedural errors too often and should be more careful (Please do not take this personally, I've never seen you play, and honestly do not know). There are specific rules and guidelines for how penalties are handed out, and there are great measures in place to enforce impartiality.

Now, about PokePop making light of your issue in another thread, that was funny. He wasn't making fun of you, he was destroying the drama and trying to take attention away from the situation. You said you didn't want to talk about it, and 'Pop making a joke was one way to close the discussion. Don't take offense, not everyone is out to get you.
 
PokePop said:
It's called trying to lighten the mood, Gino.
I posted a picture of myself looking at my prize cards.
Obviously I was making a statement about you that said..... what? :confused:

Have you ever, ever had an issue with me judging one of your matches?
Ever?
I seem to recall NY States last year.
What was that penalty for forgetting to put out your prizes that wasn't discovered until after a deck search?
Any bias against you there?
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U trying to lighten the mood im taken that stuff serious. Nah ur like one of my favorite judges I dont got no problem with u pop. I just wasnt liking the sense of humor with the prize cards. I make my issue clear with judges they just gotta call the matches right and theres no problems but if you decide a game with your rulings and stuff whats the point of playing. That ruling u made on me last year at states was correct. I messed up. U gave the right ruling. I wasnt mad. I wasnt mad because it was the right ruling. Why would I slam u for that?

See rulings change w/ different players w/ different judges. Favoritism in pokemon is played but is surely not mentioned. This dude played azelf early and knew all his prizes. He thought he koed someone but he didnt and he drew a prize. The judge saw an advantage of taking the prize card that he could have moved back. If he saw his prizes with time walk HE KNOWS ALL OF EM! TIME WALK is an advantage. He puts the prize back and gets a prize penalty is wat it should be.

Pokepop were cool.. u call rulings and situations right all the times. U and BJJ763 are the best two judges in the northeast. :cool:

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Rocketman said:
As for you gino, I'll be at nats, be sure and look me up so we can discuss this further! I look forward to it!
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Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
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Damn ima a go to world's and cheat and then say i hear Gino dose it JK

Seems like people are always looking for some to attack whats with that let him be also thanks poke pop now i will look at my prozes that why because i will only play NOOBS who are blind so they cant see me do that jk man but i will try that at worlds when i see you judging

I'm just playing around but come on let the forums move on from these attack on Gino i don't like him much but don't we have better things to do with your time. maybe take the time your spending on attacking Gino in the forum and put that towards deck building you one day can beat Gino one day
Main thing from this there is to much hate on these forums
 
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I don't hate anyone but i like to have fun I have no doubt I can beat gino plus i can run on a sentence even longer than you.
Does anyone go to school, or you guys just stay home playing pokeyman?
 
I'd say that drawing a random prize is less serious than drawing a prize known only to yourself. When trying to unwind, the judge has to determine if he/she wants to believe you when you tell them which prize you drew. Either way, you gain an anvantage, one more significant than the other if you knowingly draw a particularly critical prize card.

So, I side with the judge's decision. Time Walk and knowingly drawing a prize known only to you is more serious, especially at a Tier 2 tournament.

The only time I'd consider it less serious if for something like Gallade where the prizes are visible to everyone.

It could have gone either way. With a strict judge, I'd almost expect a GL in this situation. Some judges are a bit more GL-happy than others.:nonono:
 
A horrible call IMO. If anything a Prize-penalty should have been given to your opponent b/c of how he moved the Pachirisu to the Discard Pile. It could easy be considered "angle-shooting", "bluffing", or unsportsman like conduct what ever you want to call it. It's just as much his/her responsibility, as it is yours to make sure of something like that.

I remember two years ago, Top 4 Midwest Regionals, something similar to this happened to me. I was attacking a Lickintung D with my Flygon Ex D, except I didn't have enough energy to attack with. I was suppose to use Metagross's (DX) Power to attach the 3rd energy. I had even put it on top of my Discard Pile, but for some reason I forgot to do it.

Vince, from St. Louis was the HJ. I had seen my prize card but it was clear to my opponent which one it was. I had to put the prize card back, shuffle prizes, and given a caution. I then decided to scoop because it no longer felt right since it was the second sloppy play I had pulled that match. First was...

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accidentally laying 7 prizes down and calling myself out on it. I wasn't playing scramble or anything else that would benefit me from being behind on prizes. After the prize incident I scooped because it no longer felt right since my opponent didn't get a prize penalty.

Like you said if something is easy reversal, the judges should have the game be settled at the playing field not on controversial made by judges. Especially when it's an easy fix and something BOTH, you and YOUR OPPONENT, should be on top of.
 
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chriscobi634 said:
...Like you said if something is easy reversal, the judges should have the game be settled at the playing field not on controversial made by judges. Especially when it's an easy fix and something BOTH, you and YOUR OPPONENT, should be on top of.
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I disagree that this was "easy" to reverse. Sure, if you have zero cards in your hand, then you draw the prize, there's no question as to which card is the prize card. But, once you add a prize card to existing cards in your hand, the judge has to rely on your "trusted word" to determine which card is the prize card.

So, the question is, "why don't some judges consider honesty when unwinding?"

I think some judges have the attitude that you're guilty until proven innocent. No matter how honest of a person you are, some judges won't even consider that when applying the penalty, or attempting to unwind. Is that wrong? Certainly, IMO. Judges should always assume players are generally honest, until a particular player proves otherwise. If you assume honesty, unwinding a misplay becomes easier, lessening the need to elevate the penalty.

I'm not saying the penalty elevation was wrong in this case. I'm just saying that in most cases, it "should" be avoided.

JMO.
 
Chris, I remember that situation...mainly because the entire room thought I was too lenient on you.

I stand behind the call...OK, MAYBE it could have been a warning.

There are times the hammer needs to come down, and there are times that being reasonable in a reasonable situation is the best.

FWIW, I like to be reasonable.

Vince
 
The EASY repairs/rewinds are generally classified as MINOR game play errors. This one was definately a MAJOR because it is not easy to repair. I don't have it as SEVERE because only one card is involved.

The HJ obviously believed that even though only one card was involved the gamestate was too far gone to allow the game to continue so a MAJOR error picked up a GL penalty.
 
Don't get me wrong...I was just commenting on Chris's comment.

I am not stating that the penalty here was too lenient.

I agree with SteveP that knowledge of the prizes makes this a much tougher call, as the advantage is immediately gained.

Not being there, and only hearing so much of the discussion, the call was within the guidelines. Too easy to second guess a call with half of the information. Any call can be made to look good, and every call can be made to look bad.

Vince
 
Ditto to addressing Chris and others who think repairs are easy.
Ditto again as I wont comment on the PL/GL because I too wasn't their .

easy repair (everyone knows where all the cards should be)-> MINOR
hard repair (aka a Mess!) -> MAJOR
You expect me to fix how many cards?!?!?!? ->SEVERE
 
I definitely think that the game was still within repair, as long as\
Whicker told the truth about the prize card he drew. I believe he did,
especially with the feedback I've read.
As far as angle shooting, if someone says Zen Blade for KO, it's a
natural reaction to discard your pokemon so there was no angle shooting.

As far as my opinion goes, I believe that Whicker should have gotten a prize
loss. What's he going to do, draw the prize and switch it with another card in his hand?
I don't think so.
This was the playoffs, and he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

The players worked really hard to make it this far and the judges should do everything
they can to make sure that they can play their matches out.

I believe this could have been repaired if they trusted him on the prize card and let him put it back.

I also realize that the judges are under a lot of pressure, but I think GL's should only be for
emergency situations.

This wasn't one of those.:mad:
 
How confident is a judge that he/she can repair the game-state satisfactorily?

I see some judges with the attitude that unless the repair is 100% restoreable, it's unwindable. I once accidently dinged the door of a brand new car. The owner was so mad that he wanted my insurance company to re-paint the entire car, not just the small mark, or the effected door.

That's the wrong attitude. When something is damaged, it's often hard to achieve 100% restoration. Judges should never consider 100% restoration when trying to unwind. Heal the damage as best as possible, using any reasonable means possible, INCLUDING relying on the honesty of the players.

Then, if you feel the restoration still leaves the offender with an unfair advantage, "consider" elevating -- and be prepared to justify.

Finally, as a player, you should do your best to plead your case to the judge. Many judges are willing to listen to reason -- as Vince hinted at. Judges CAN be convinced, if the argument is valid.


Anyway, in this particular case, the judge was right in one sense -- a major advantage was gained by taking a "known" prize. However, the only thing I "might" fault the judge is if he/she did not consider/attempt a reasonable rewind. If he/she felt the player was not reliably honest for some reason, then I completely understand the penalty escalation; otherwise, it was probably too harsh. JMO.
 
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SteveP said:
Judges should always assume players are generally honest, until a particular player proves otherwise.
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Maybe, in this particular case, the judges did assume just that. And came to the conclusion they did anyway.

Not saying that's what happened or not, but maybe your argument was already part of the equation.

Food for thought.

-Spotter
 
Whicker, was the prize you drew added to your hand? Or was the error caught before that occurred? My son received a game loss for drawing a prize when he wasn't supposed to (he included weakness on Dusknoir's Damage Even) and added the prize to his hand before his opponent realized his pokemon was not knocked out. Since the prize card entered the hand, and it was impossible to determine which card that was, the game loss was given because the action could not be rewound. Mind you, this was in Juniors of a State Championship Swiss game. The reasoning for the game loss was because the game state could not be rewound. While it seems rather harsh, the fact that it was at a State Championship elevates the penalty guidelines, even in the case of Junior players.
 
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Would the penalty be different if he had hold the prize card he just took with one hand and in his other hand was his hand?
 
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