Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Well... I Can't Outplay the Judges...

Whicker

New Member
Cities came and went this year and I was only able to attend two. At the first I played Scizor/Cherrim and the second I had really wanted to play Regigigas but due to some freak circumstances I had to settle playing Abomasnow. After that disappointing finish (with Regigigas winning the tournament) I felt a strong desire to play Regigigas for States. With Platinum arriving, I stuck in Dialga G and began testing. It lost to Rampardos and struggled with Toxitank, but I figured that every deck had an auto-loss and I hoped that by the time my State came around people would realize how bad Toxitank was. However, with the advent of Palkia and Dialga, I had to dump Regigigas, but I had no idea what to move to. After a lengthy discussion with some of my friends about the metagame, I decided that Ampharos/Manectric was a good counter to our metagame because of its advantage over Palkia and Blastoise, as well as other power-reliant decks. However, after only an hour or two of testing, I decided that the deck wasn’t good because it was too vulnerable to Machamp, non-Palkia G decks, Rampardos, and other random decks. I was lost for the next couple of days, trying stupid things such as Giratina and Garchomp, but none of them were good. Finally, the Friday before the tournament, I decided that AMU with Leafeon was the best overall play. It had the OHKO ability needed to beat decks such as Dusknoir, Machamp, Rampardos, Regigigas, Blastoise, Kingdra, and Dialga, MT Azelf to counter the Energy Gain advantage of G, and Leafeon to reduce Pearl Blast to a mere “10 to everything” attack with Leaf Guard. I went to sleep Friday knowing that Saturday morning would be a mad dash for cards, but I was able to get everything together in time for registration.

Round 1 vs someone with Rampardos
I started with Mesprit MT and he started with Skull Fossil. I went first and drew an Eevee and benched it. I attached to Mesprit and passed. He played Broken Time Space and then a Quick Ball. He ripped the Rampardos and evolved all the way to it and KO’d my Mesprit. I promote Eevee and draw. I look over and realize that Rampardos was weak to grass (for some reason I always thought it was water) and then I knew this game was mine. I Luxury Ball’d for a Leafeon and attached a Multi. I Roseanne’d for an Azelf and a Uxie and used Bind Down for 60. He played a Chatot and hit me for 80. I leveled up my Leafeon and played a Mesprit to begin charging it up. I KO the Rampardos. He then plays Cynthia’s and exclaims that his hand is so good that he can’t mimic. I Looker’s away his hand (which contained 2 Fossil Excavator, 2 Cranidos, and 2 Rampardos) and so he’s slow to recover. He only sees one more Rampardos the remainder of the game
1-0

Round 2 vs Grant with Dusknoir/Gengar
He gets a quick set up and begins using Shadow Command by turn 2. I got a fairly decent start and I primed to Surpreme Blast by the time he sends up Dusknoir to attack. He levels up and uses Damage Even to almost KO Mesprit. I try my best to find a Snowpoint, but I fail despite a Set Up, Trade Off, and Felicity’s. I then try and find a way to do something that doesn’t involve KO’ing the Dusknoir until I realize that I have Azelf LA in my hand. I Time Walk and find a Snowpoint in my prizes. I make a mental note of its location and KO the Dusknoir, picking up the Snowpoint in the process. Next turn he whiffs on an energy needed to KO my Mesprit, so retreats for a Gastly and uses Pitch Dark. I play the Snowpoint, retreat for Leafeon, level it up, and using Leaf Guard on it. He draws the energy but can’t retreat his Gastly. Next turn I KO his Gastly. He brings up Dusknoir, attaches to a benched (putting 5 energies in play) and KO’s Mesprit. Next turn I retreat for Azelf and Deep Balance his Dusknoir, keeping the X in the discard. He’s stuck for the remainder of the game with some Gengars that don’t have any energy as he beings drawing dead. He finally gets his Dark Palm Dusknoir out late in the game but it was too late and I was able to recover.
2-0

Round 3 vs Will B. with Palkia
We both got horrendous starts. We both went “draw…pass” for 3-4 turns before I drew a Felicity that got me going. He misplays a couple turns later when he drops two straight Uxies (along with 2 Mesprits, he only had room on his field for 2 G pokemon) so I could use powers freely until he dropped the Palkia X. However, by then I had Leaf Guard going so his Palkia couldn’t deal much damage. His Dialga came way too late in the game and he scooped.
3-0

Round 4 vs Jordan B. with Rampardos/Machamp
He, much like my first round opponent, got a quick Rampados, but I was able to respond with a quick Leafeon. After about 3 Rampardos, he dropped a Machamp (which completely caught me off guard; I hadn’t seen any evidence of Machamp at all) and KO’d Mesprit. I then had to Guard an Uxie X while I tried to replace Mesprit. I wasn’t able to replace it, but he was only able to get that one Machamp on the field for the rest of the game.
4-0

Round 5 vs someone with Gengar
A lot of people struggle with Gengar because they fear Fainting Spell. When explaining their matchup against it they always try to find little ways to avoid it like “oh you should KO with Psychic Restore and then put Uxie at the bottom of your deck” and whatever, but I think that’s a waste of time and effort. While you’re finding a way to do 90 to the Gengar so you can set up your Psychic Restore, the Gengar player is setting up two more while pounding away at you with Shadow Room. I say “bring it on, Gengar. I’m coming at you full speed and if you can flip four heads, then it’s your game, but if you can’t, then you better have a plan B because there’s no way you’re going to win.”
He got a pretty good start but I made my field Shadow-proof by leveling up the MT Azelf and MT Mesprit and Guarding my Uxie. I kept my trainer-count low and I Time Walked so I always drew a non-trainer prize. I think the most he ever did all game was 60. He flipped two heads out of three with Fainting Spell but I recovered the Mesprit quickly. He started misplaying (IMO) late in the game when, instead of going for the two-hit against Mesprit, he started to Shadow Room my benched non-leveled-up Uxie and Azelf. This allowed me to KO his Gengar and survive a hit from his Haunter on the following turn.
5-0

Round 6 vs Robbie W. with Dialga
He began by saying that I was making a bold move by playing AMU at this tournament (I still don't know what this means) so I figured he was pretty confident in this match. I started off with two Level Max in my opening hand. On turn 2, I dropped an Uxie and tried to Level Max it. Tails. Try it again. Tails. With no Trade Off, I drew dead for a couple of turns and let him get set up. Once he got out his Dialga X I struggled to stay in the game. I had a shot near the end of the game when I made a huge misplay and sacrificed my Azelf X instead of letting my Leafeon absorb a hit. With the X in the discard, he simply used Deafen for the remainder of the game and I couldn’t get it back out. I scooped when I saw I had three cards left in my deck.
5-1

Round 7 vs Roy R. with Machamp
I felt pretty confident against Machamp with this deck assuming I could get Unown G out relatively quickly before Take Out really started to do some damage. I failed on two Level Maxes early in the game again which kept me from using Trade Off for awhile, delaying my set up quite a bit. Soon, I Time Walked and almost died when I saw my prizes. I had both Unown G prized, the other Azelf LA, and the Mesprit X. I was forced to take the Mesprit in order to score a KO and I picked up one of the Unown G. He used Take Out on the Mesprit and I guarded an Uxie, hoping that he wouldn’t be able to KO it. He ripped the 3 heads with Hurricane Punch and played keep away for the rest of the game so I never took another prize until he only had one left. He played Cynthia’s for a Warp Point to end it.
5-2

Before the cut I took a reasonable guess at who made it, and I decided that as long as I avoided Clay (who was playing Luxray) I had a good chance of winning it. But, of course, by saying this, I jinx myself and I’m playing him in top 16.

Top 16 vs Clay C. with Luxray/Manectric/Abomasnow
Game One:
We both got legitimate set ups but he had trouble drawing into his counter stadiums to default Snowpoint. With Snowpoint in play, the pixies could survive a hit from Plasma so I was always able to win the prize trade. I made sure to keep my field as Manectric-proof as possible, and he simply couldn’t keep up.
Game Two:
I got one of my better set ups all day (I actually hit Level Maxes!) and a couple of turns in he had one energy in play while I had my entire set up with enough energy/Roseannes in my hand to ensure that I could get a KO a turn for the next five turns. I was in prime position to take the game, when I did one of the stupidest things I’ve ever done. He had a Pachy active with 20 damage. Not wanting to waste energies using Surpreme Blast, I retreated for Uxie X and Zen Bladed. He discarded the Pachy, promoted another Pokemon, and began his turn. I drew a prize. However, Snowpoint Temple was in play and so therefore Pachy shouldn’t have been KO’d. I received a GAME LOSS for this. However, I argued then and still contend now that this was the INCORRECT penalty for this situation. I’ve witnessed this situation MANY times before and most of the time it is a warning and sometimes a prize loss, but never a game loss.
6.5 Game Loss
This penalty should almost never be given out to a player who has not previously received a lesser penalty for the same infraction, unless it is the penalty recommended in this document.
7.1.2 Major
When the game state has been irreversibly confused due to game-play errors, it is appropriate for the judge to issue a higher-level penalty. Major game-play error penalties are also appropriate for minor game-play errors that have left the game too confused to reset.


In addition to the assigned penalty to the offending player, a Caution should be issued to the player’s opponent for not properly keeping track of game state and rules.

Examples of Game-Play Error: Major include:
• Shuffling your deck mid-game without the use of card effect
• Insufficiently randomizing your deck
• Failing to place Prize cards at the beginning of the game*
Drawing a Prize card without Knocking Out a Pokemon
• Drawing too many Prize cards after Knocking Out a Pokemon
• Forgetting to place damage counters on a Pokemon for a mandatory effect, such as Poisoned
• Using a Poke-Power when a card prevents its use

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Warning
Tier 2: Prize Card

*If the Head Judge determines that the offending player gained significant advantage due to this error, the starting penalty should be escalated one step.

These are taken directly from the Penalty Guidelines. This was my first offense, so the first quote applies. Secondly, my offense was given as an example as an infraction that ISN’T recommended for a game loss. The Head Judge claimed that the game loss was given because I gained a significant advantage because I knew what one of my prizes was, which is shown with the asterisk. HOWEVER, I did NOT gain a significant advantage because I already knew what my prizes were due to Time Walk. Even IF that can’t be taken into account, the guidelines clearly state that the penalty should be escalated ONE step, which means I should have been given a prize penalty, not a game loss.

Game Three:
I got nothing. He got everything.


Props
Roy for winning
Everyone who let me borrow cards
Will, Matt, and Sidney for our discussion
Clay. You played a fantastic deck and you earned that top 4. I'm sorry I was angry during our game 3 but I'm glad you handled it well.
Slops
Wrong penalties FTL. Let us decide our important games at the tables, not off of them
 
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Sorry about the game loss, Jordan. That sucks.

It's always fun playing you guys though. Come to HQ on saturdays. Will, Sidney, and Matt usually show up each week.
 
Jordan, I was waiting for the flames to start, Whicker's Bickers always occur after every tournament that is a Major and you don't win, so here it is again. As I explained to you after the Match, many things were taken into consideration before this was ruled a GL. I respect you as a player and admire you skill of the game, we have had our battles when I played and it is always a challenge, but a fun one. But sometimes I wish you would step back and look from all perspectives and not just from the "Victim" side of things. Here is some insight on the situation your referencing, which btw is what the Floor Rules, Compendium, etc. are for Judges, REFERENCING MATERIAL to find a "Best" solution to the problem.

Since States was a Tier 2 Tournament, the starting Penalty for this was Prize Card. States is a 32K Event and thus making on equal base as Regionals and Nationals. Your Head Judge recognized this and also recognized that a Player's History now follows him/her from event to event. Player History no longer is isolated to the existing event. Your HJ took all of this into consideration and also took into consideration the Level at which this error occurred and the fact that the Snowpoint Temple in play was yours and not the opponents giving the responsibility to verify a KO to you.

During this decision making process, the Judging Team discussed all possibilities and the GL was determined by the HJ to be the best suited fro all the circumstances involving this issue.

Your History of a previous Tournament and the obscene outburst you made due to Computer issues and having to repair Round 1 wasn't even brought up during this conversation. Which btw many HJ would have DQed you right there and removed you from the tournament, but alas the HJ at that event convinced the PTO you would not be an issue for the remainder of the tournament... imagine that.. Judges helping Players.

It is unfortunate you must always play the victim at events instead of accepting your own responsibilities and actions that lead to Judges having to make these sorts of rulings. It would be nice if ALL Players VOLUNTEERED to be Judges at one Point so that they may get a better perspective of how difficult a job it is to determine and consider every situation. It might allow for players to really understand the magnitude of maintaining an event and keeping it as Fair as possible.

So with all that said Jordan, GL at Regionals if you are there and continue to bring your A game. I wish you success in all endeavors Pokemon and non Pokemon related!

Fish
 
Jordan, try to take the high road here. Gl's suck, but this was a tier 2 event and they we're
well withing their bounds to give you a game loss ( as the floor rules you posted clearly state).

Fish is all class, he wouldn't screw over anyone.If anything, from his post it sounds like he
always tries to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry your day ended the way it did, but coming on here and slamming judges isn't going to
do you any good in future events.

Good luck at regionals.
 
Bad luck receiving a GL when you hadn't gotten anything similar before. Look at the humor side of it...you got a GL for looking at a prize card when you were playing AMU of all decks. Unfortunate you hadn't managed to Time Walk or something by that point in the game. (assuming that would make the judge's call more lax? i dunno)

Good show none the less. Especially for playing AMU at states....that was definitely a bold move. Quality plays.
 
Jordan, try to take the high road here. Gl's suck, but this was a tier 2 event and they we're
well withing their bounds to give you a game loss ( as the floor rules you posted clearly state).

Fish is all class, he wouldn't screw over anyone.If anything, from his post it sounds like he
always tries to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry your day ended the way it did, but coming on here and slamming judges isn't going to
do you any good in future events.

Good luck at regionals.

I wasn't slamming judges. I just believe the wrong call was made. I just feel like games should be evaluated by who wins games, and unless a game loss is the ONLY option for a penalty (which as Fish has told me it clearly wasn't) then it should be avoided for this very reason.

Pandemonium said:
Bad luck receiving a GL when you hadn't gotten anything similar before. Look at the humor side of it...you got a GL for looking at a prize card when you were playing AMU of all decks. Unfortunate you hadn't managed to Time Walk or something by that point in the game. (assuming that would make the judge's call more lax? i dunno)

Good show none the less. Especially for playing AMU at states....that was definitely a bold move. Quality plays.

I had used Time Walk by this point, which lead to my argument about how no significant advantage was gained. I knew exactly what I was drawing and why before I "KO'd" the Pokemon.
Thanks for your compliment.

Danny,
I sent you a PM. My response isn't post material.
 
I wasn't confident in the match, I was actually kind of scared you would get set up really fast and blow me away with the evilness of Supreme Blast. And when I said you made a bold move, I meant it was a hard deck to play and I didn't think it could do well in this format, you obviously did pretty good with it.

But good job, and I hope to see you at Regionals this year.

I'm not taking any sides on the game loss issue, just here to congratulate on doing well.
 
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Just a different point of view because this hasn't been mentioned yet:

You said used Time Walk earlier, so you knew what your prizes were, right? So, when you took a prize, I can only assume that you went straight for the prize card you wanted or needed. In other words, you picked the card that would benefit you the most, rather than just blindly picking a random prize card (which may or may not have been the one that you needed).

Couldn't this be an advantage?
 
Just a different point of view because this hasn't been mentioned yet:

You said used Time Walk earlier, so you knew what your prizes were, right? So, when you took a prize, I can only assume that you went straight for the prize card you wanted or needed. In other words, you picked the card that would benefit you the most, rather than just blindly picking a random prize card (which may or may not have been the one that you needed).

Couldn't this be an advantage?

There is really only 1 way that drawing a known prize card could be a game-breaking advantage and that is if neither the judge nor the opponent could determine which card in his hand was the prize card, since the card can otherwise just be put back otherwise.

If, however, it was unclear which card in his hand was the prized card, the Time Walk actually makes it a worse transgression (since the advantage gained becomes more clearly great.)
 
There is really only 1 way that drawing a known prize card could be a game-breaking advantage and that is if neither the judge nor the opponent could determine which card in his hand was the prize card, since the card can otherwise just be put back otherwise.

If, however, it was unclear which card in his hand was the prized card, the Time Walk actually makes it a worse transgression (since the advantage gained becomes more clearly great.)

That's exactly my point, I didn't read where anyone tried to determine what prize card was drawn, so I decided to throw this point of view into the mix. Not insinuating anything, just playing devil's advocate. We always encourage judges to look at every point of view.
 
@ Grant
Thanks man. You gave me a great game. Hopefully we'll play again soon

@ Rew
Thank you. I knew going in that AMU wasn't generally accepted as a good play for this metagame, but I knew otherwise. I actually think AMU was one of the least bold plays I could have made compared to my other choices.

@ Cook and Godzfirefly
I suppose this could viewed as a significant advantage. Honestly, the prize didn't affect that much, but I see this point of view. The prize that I drew (purposely) was an energy, because I lacked one in my hand at that point in the game (although I had a Roseannes). My other four prizes were Pacharisu (useless against Clay's deck), a Looker's Investigation (unneeded), a Snowpoint Temple (one was already in play, obviously), and a Night Maintenance (this was the one I had put down with Time Walk earlier, and it was unneeded at this point). I drew the energy because it was the least unneeded card, but I had several ways of getting one next turn regardless of the prize. So, I don't think a significant advantage was gained with all factors taken into account, but obviously I can't expect the judge to know any of this, but I could have explained it if necessary (which I would have liked for a penalty so serious). The key word in the "significant advantage" clause is "DETERMINES." The Head Judge must DETERMINE that a significant advantage was gained, but yet no strides were made to do so. Ultimately, the first quote stating that Game Losses should be avoided much of the time really speaks to me in terms of its misuse in this situation. There were alternatives (prize loss, multi prize loss) that would have allowed us to decide this important game as it should have been decided while still administering an effective penalty. Secondly, even with a significant advantage, the second quote still leads me to believe that the penalty should have been a prize loss.
 
You should have gone and played with gino..........or take lessons from poke pop!
Since I wasn't there, the only thing I can say is man up bro. Weather it's a good call or a bad call, it's done. I'm sure you have had calls go your way ( in fact I know you have), so think of it as karma and move on.
 
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Whicker my good lad you need to stop making excuses. Your deck building ability and skill likely had more to do with the loss than the judges.

Judges are there to moderate the event and rarely dictate the outcome of a game. POP judges are amongst the best in the world.

Show some more class and sportsmanship. Take your losses like a man.
 
Whicker my good lad you need to stop making excuses. Your deck building ability and skill likely had more to do with the loss than the judges.

Judges are there to moderate the event and rarely dictate the outcome of a game. POP judges are amongst the best in the world.

Show some more class and sportsmanship. Take your losses like a man.

Wow... where to begin... I suppose I'll just start at the top of your post and move down.

1. I am a good lad. Thank you.
2. This is not an excuse, it's a reason why I lost a game without losing (regardless of whether or not you think the penalty is fair, THIS part is true). An excuse is something like "well he got so lucky and hit 3 out of 4 heads on Reversal to win." That stuff happens on a fairly regular basis through normal, everyday game play, and losing that way is just as normal as a bad start or a bad matchup. A player will often use excuses to legitimize normal losses. I lose games all the time and I never say anything, because I'm okay with losing when I lose. It's as simple as that.
3. My deck building and skill obviously had no effect on the situation when you read it from an objective viewpoint. My skill may have lost me round 6 when I misplayed at the end of the game, and my deckbuilding probably lost me game 3 of the cut whenever I got a bad start, but in game 2, my deck was working fine and I was making good plays. I also didn't seem to have much of a problem for the other parts of the tournament.
Ask anyone who has seen me play on a fairly regular basis. I'm a good player who plays good decks. Remember, I never actually lost that game.
If you meant to attack my play STYLE, then I think you're wrong as well. I think over the last 5-6 seasons I've received maybe five to seven warnings, two or so prize penalties, and this singular game loss. Everyone makes a mistake at some point, and I'm sorry mine are somehow different from other people's. I'm still in good standing with POP for a reason. I do make mistakes but I don't think I've ever been warned for the same mistake twice, because I learn and adapt and I absolutely refuse to let myself repeat my errors.
4. No, the judges definitely played a part in that "loss." I don't know if you understand this or not, but I never actually lost the game. If they had administered a prize penalty and then I went on to lose, then I think you'd be correct in saying that the loss was mainly on me.
5. Rarely = sometimes happens. This time they clearly dictated the outcome of the game, whether the ruling be correct or incorrect. I strongly believe that the outcome of the game would have been different if the judges had done nothing, which means that the outcome had been changed.
6. Last time I checked, "best" in no way means "perfect." The best judges, I'm sure, have made incorrect rulings on something. I'm not on here to argue that they had the wrong intentions, but simply that they made the wrong call. It happens. It doesn't mean they aren't the best.
I won't even get into how unfounded and unwarranted your argument is. I may go over the character limit if I do that.
7. Until you've met me or have seen what I've done, then do not insult my sportsmanship or class. In 2005 I went to four Gym Challenges and placed 2nd at three of them and 3rd at the other. I was disappointed, but I said no words to the judges or to my opponents, because I had legitimately lost all of those games. I've said this before but I'll say it again: if I lose because I lose the game, then I will say nothing. I just think it's wrong when you lose without ever losing.
 
I think this situation is being blown out of proportion on both sides.

While Jordan DID make a gameplay error that his opponent didn't catch (if the opponent discarded the pokemon as if KO'd instead of catching that it's not), it didn't deserve a Game Loss. He has a right to be upset with the decision, but not really a place to go bashing said judge, which isn't what he is doing.

I don't really see Whicker making excuses, but rather pointing out a legitimate disappointment that any player would have if in his shoes. This wasn't an error of sportsmanship or cheating, just a simple misplay after a LONG day of playing. I think some people on here aren't taking this as a player upset about a decision as much as they are seeing it as a whinefest because he didn't win. Keep in mind that Jordan is a great player who puts a lot into his matches. Losing because of a GL penalty instead of legitimately being knocked out of tops is a huge discouragement when puting effort into training for these events. That's all he's really trying to say, from what I've gathered.
 
From a completley Neutral side. I Like Fish alot, I think he puts alot into judgeing and makes the tough calls that other judges do not want to make. But regardless of my ties to Wicker (Jordan) I think made a horribad call on his part. Sitting next to Jordan playing in top 16 as well I saw everything that happend leading up too this call.

1st Jordans opponent did not catch this error as well. Thus making this as much Clays error as Jordans. A single prize penalty should have been issued (for all fairness an Eye for an Eye here fits perfect seeing as you cant legitimitly put back a prize).

2nd Jordan knew every singe one of his prizes... Saying he had a unfair advantage excluding bieng up 1 prize is an unlegitimate argument.

3rd Both Judges Fish and Dr D are at fault here. I love both Judges and stand firm in suporting both calls from each judge. But this is absolutly unfair to any player regardless of my ties to Jordan or any Oklahoma player.

Had this been a Texas or anyother state player my arguement remains the same in support of the victum of an undeserving call.

Lastly... Anyone who comments on Jordan character, play styles or deck building in a negative way either Does not know Jordan very well or is baising thier statments upon 3rd party biased knowledge. He is the best deck builder I know who keeps a strait sportsman like attitude to anyone who wrongs him until he confront them away from everyone else. /endrant
 
1) An incorrectly drawn prize card has to be replaced. How effective the replacement is does influence the quality of the repair. How good the repair is does determine the penalty.

2) I will not comment upon the PL/GL issue here.

3) The interaction of Time Walk with an incorrectly drawn prize needs to be explored.
3.1) From what was posted so far this was not a consideration in the eventual penalty.

4) Fault? Fault implies blame. I'm not happy with accusations of fault.
4.1) Whicker is making the case that an error was made in the penalty assessed. Not as far as I can tell to blame anyone.

5) We all learn from mistakes. Both ones we make ourselves and those that we are fortunate to have others make first. I am personally greatfull to Whicker for starting the thread as without it I would not have been so aware of the Time Walk interaction. This means I get a chance to think about it before I'm faced with the issue.
 
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