For CC 2010 Playtesters ? Insight, Space Virus and Legend Box.
- Thread starter bulbasnore
- Start date
Porii to answer your question about players deck knowledge, while you're looking at the cards, you're correct that's your own knowledge, since it states to look at, not reveal. However because the card says that the rest get discarded, at that point the cards go to the discard pile, and the discard pile is knowledge allowed by BOTH players.
Now, as for an actual ruling, I would say that because it's Lugia Legend's power allowing it, just because your opponent may not know it, Lugia Legend knows that it's there, (kind of like the Yanmega question from the begining of the post, Yanmega takes into account everything BEFORE the Giratina discards it, it's knowledge the pokemon has.) And so, because Ocean Grow says "Once during your turn, when you put Lugia LEGEND into play, you may look at the top 5 cards of your deck and attach ALL Energy cards you find there to Lugia LEGEND. Discard the other cards. I see two things here, one, it says ALL Energy cards, and since Lugia LEGEND knows they're there, they have to go on. Second, there is a period seperating "All energy...Lugia LEGEND." and "Discard the other cards." Meaning you HAVE to attach ALL the energy cards there first. Once you've done that, THEN you discard the other cards. If I was juding at a tournament, this is how I personally would rule, because of the two reasonings given, still though, you should ask the HJ or have your friend ask before hand.
Pokepop, Using the same ruling as before I would rule this way in regards to your question. The cost to activate Junk Arm is to discard two cards. The exact text says "Discard 2 cards from your hand. Search your discard pile for a Trainer Card, show it to your opponent and put it into your hand. You can't choose Junk Arm with the effect of this card." Note the period. First you discard the cards. Then, (and the one thing that drives me crazy about this game after having played Yugioh for so long) is that you do not need to be able to fulfil the requirements of the card in order to use it. If you discover no trainer cards in your discard pile, Junk Arm fizzles and goes to the discard pile. However, because the cost to activate Junk Arm happens first, if you discard a trainer I would say that since now the resolution is happening, you can take back the other trainer that isn't Junk Arm that you used to activate it. Again, ask a Head Judge at a tournament before doing so, but that's how I would rule.
Good luck all!
Now, as for an actual ruling, I would say that because it's Lugia Legend's power allowing it, just because your opponent may not know it, Lugia Legend knows that it's there, (kind of like the Yanmega question from the begining of the post, Yanmega takes into account everything BEFORE the Giratina discards it, it's knowledge the pokemon has.) And so, because Ocean Grow says "Once during your turn, when you put Lugia LEGEND into play, you may look at the top 5 cards of your deck and attach ALL Energy cards you find there to Lugia LEGEND. Discard the other cards. I see two things here, one, it says ALL Energy cards, and since Lugia LEGEND knows they're there, they have to go on. Second, there is a period seperating "All energy...Lugia LEGEND." and "Discard the other cards." Meaning you HAVE to attach ALL the energy cards there first. Once you've done that, THEN you discard the other cards. If I was juding at a tournament, this is how I personally would rule, because of the two reasonings given, still though, you should ask the HJ or have your friend ask before hand.
Pokepop, Using the same ruling as before I would rule this way in regards to your question. The cost to activate Junk Arm is to discard two cards. The exact text says "Discard 2 cards from your hand. Search your discard pile for a Trainer Card, show it to your opponent and put it into your hand. You can't choose Junk Arm with the effect of this card." Note the period. First you discard the cards. Then, (and the one thing that drives me crazy about this game after having played Yugioh for so long) is that you do not need to be able to fulfil the requirements of the card in order to use it. If you discover no trainer cards in your discard pile, Junk Arm fizzles and goes to the discard pile. However, because the cost to activate Junk Arm happens first, if you discard a trainer I would say that since now the resolution is happening, you can take back the other trainer that isn't Junk Arm that you used to activate it. Again, ask a Head Judge at a tournament before doing so, but that's how I would rule.
Good luck all!
It is called CHEATING!!!
Porii Sames
Active Member
I would call it not knowing the rules.
Thx, Kokuro!
Thx, Kokuro!
In Regards to this ruling; At the Triumphant Prerelease I attended, this was in-line with what was said. I wanted to know if I could use Junk Arm in my deck (and since there are no other targets in the set, it would have no possible target). The Head Judge said that I could use it to discard cards from my hand since the cost is valid.
Pokepop, would this be the way things work?
Thanks in advance!
DonphanAtoZ
New Member
No it isn't, he just wanted to know if he could fail that. It's not cheating, it's merely asking about the rules.
Physics Squirrel
Active Member
Guys, nobody needs negotiate with PokePop. The reason he hasn't provided input on this question is because we're waiting on an official answer, and as 'Pop is one of the people who provides official answers to rulings questions, he is right in waiting for an official answer to come in before speculating.
Keep up the good work, rules team.
Now, that said, since I'm not endowed with any such responsibility, I may speculate.
And I would personally agree that based on the current English wording, it appears that Junk Arm performs two separate actions in sequence, as opposed to paying a cost to do an action. There is no 'in order to' or 'If you do,' connecting the two actions.
My hope is that it is ruled this way - you may always play it. First you discard two (or all) cards. Then you retrieve a Trainer card not called Junk Arm. If, after discarding cards, an eligible trainer is present, it may be retrieved.
This interpretation is internally consistent, as well as consistent with trainer playing procedure has generally been ruled in the past (Perform effects one at a time. If the current effect cannot be satisfied, do as much as you can. If it cannot be satisfied at all, the trainer short-circuits there.) It also avoids silly situations like the one where you are allowed to take a trainer you just discarded, but you could only play Junk Arm if you already had another Trainer already in the discard.
Kabutops141
New Member
I'm gonna have to agree with Physics. I sorta figured it'd be ruled like Regice, where as Regice can discard two cards even if the active is an evolution. You'd be able to discard two even if there was no trainer. IDK, though.
Deoxys Cool Form
New Member
I agree - IF you can prove that they did know that you couldn't not attach the energy cards.
And well. . . That's going to be impossible unless they admit it, which I doubt cheaters are going to do.
If I didn't know the ruling and was given a game loss, I'd go right to POP and complain.
Because without proof, for all we know it could be a poor kid who didn't know the ruling, and now has to suffer because of it. I wouldn't even do a prize loss. Just a very weak warning.
Porii Sames
Active Member
If I were a judge I'd give a small warning as well.
nagareboshima
New Member
today at my cities we encountered heavy problems with the rulings on junkarm.
There is a big difference between using a Power and playing a card.
Physics, I disagree with your intepretation of junk arm. Firstly, as pokepop has said, you cant compare junk arm with a poke power. Poke powers obey a do-as-much-as-you-can, doesnt-matter-if-you-cant-resolve-it-completely rule, whereas trainers generally need to be completely resolved otherwise it shldnt be playable.
To quote you an example, rare candy, it says, choose 1 of your basic pokemon in play [PERIOD]. IF you have a stage 1 or stage 2 pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. If according to your intepretation, i can break down this sentence by sentence, hence allowing me to play the rare candy without having any evolutions, and then letting it fizzle out since i dun have the evolutions. To play a trainer, you need to take into account all the criteria mentioned in the card.
The main concern i have about junk arm is whether you are allowed to take back a trainer you discarded using junk arm? Personally i would rule that you are allowed to do so, because you would be doing the discarding before the taking back, hence allowing you to take back a trainer you just discarded.
To quote you an example, rare candy, it says, choose 1 of your basic pokemon in play [PERIOD]. IF you have a stage 1 or stage 2 pokemon in your hand, put that card on the Basic Pokemon. If according to your intepretation, i can break down this sentence by sentence, hence allowing me to play the rare candy without having any evolutions, and then letting it fizzle out since i dun have the evolutions. To play a trainer, you need to take into account all the criteria mentioned in the card.
The main concern i have about junk arm is whether you are allowed to take back a trainer you discarded using junk arm? Personally i would rule that you are allowed to do so, because you would be doing the discarding before the taking back, hence allowing you to take back a trainer you just discarded.
Porii Sames
Active Member
So I've recently been informed that you can fail Blastoise PL's Power.
So I think I'm correct, as the wording is similar to Lugia Legend's.
So I think I'm correct, as the wording is similar to Lugia Legend's.
Kayle
Active Member
Yes, they are, but since Blastoise says CHOOSE and Lugia does not, it's pretty obvious you can choose zero energy.