Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Issues Facing the TCG

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ness

Member
I thought I'd share with you guys what I thought were the top issues & problems facing the current format & tournaments. That way, we can brainstorm productive ideas which may eventually become implemented in the form of new rules, procedures, etc.

1) Duration of Tournaments
Over the years, the speed of a Pokemon TCG game as slowed down. What originally used 20 minute time limits per games had to be extended to 30 minutes, then to 40 minutes (and now a similar 30 minutes+3 turns). Let's face it: the game is different than it was in the base set days. And whether or not that's a good thing isn't worth debating because we can't change the cards they print in Japan.

These long games are a problem because they make finishing tournaments in one day difficult. Sure, we can pull off City Championships in a day, but come States & Regionals, these tournaments can easily run past midnight.

What solutions do I have? Well, there's the simple ones, such as reinstating draws. Every tournament, I see games drag into sudden death. The larger the tournament, the more likely a game is to drag in sudden death after time has been called. Reinstating draws would shave a small amount of time off of small tournaments, but could save hours in a tournament like Nationals or Worlds.

Another solution would be hosting tournaments with different formats. I know Japan has 30-card (or is it 40-card?) deck tournaments with 3 or 4 prizes. What about trying that over here? It would give players a chance to play against more opponents too, since you could fit more rounds in a tournament. Sure, I'd rather play 60-card Pokemon, but if we can't allow adequate time for 6 prize games, what's the point? That brings me to my next issue:

2) Match Play
There was recently a change in the Best 2 of 3 procedure that allows the winner of Game 2 to be decided by whoever had drawn less prize cards, regardless of how many prize cards they had drawn. This allows a loser of Game 1 to score a quick one-prize win in Game 2, and possibly the same in a sudden Death Game 3. The winner of Game 1 often feels cheated because he can win a lengthy, legitimate Game 1, and lose the series to a player who only drew a total of two prize cards.

Now, why was the 4-prize requirement lifted? Because players often don't have time to draw 4 prizes in Game 2. So the options are either: leave someone who lost Game 1 feel cheated since they often don't have enough time to draw 4 prizes in Game 2, or leave some Game 1 winners feeling cheated that they won a legitimate game and lost two illegitimate games to lose the whole series. Neither of these solutions were good, and choosing one is simply picking the lesser of two evils. So, let's think outside the box? We either need to have longer tournaments, or have an entirely different format. Any other ideas? That's why I'm posting this. I'd love to hear them.

3) Turn 1 losses
Turn one losses leave people feeling sour, too. They've been around since base, became more rare in the 04-07 era, then returned with cards like Crobat G & PokeTurn in 2008. While almost everyone dislikes the idea of a Turn one loss, whether or not it is an issue that needs "fixing" is up for debate. Is it possible Organized Play can implement a rule that prevents or lessens the odds of a turn one loss? If so, would it be better for the game?

For those of you who do not view it as a problem, try playing against the Rob D's Uxie deck up in Chicago. Fueled by 50 trainers, the deck takes a 13-minute first turn and consistently defeats 3 to 4 Pokemon when he has the option to play second. While not unbeatable (or near it), even decks designed to be good against it can be defeated on Rob's first turn if he plays second.

Curious to hear any ideas, as well as issues I may have missed.
 
What if you couldn't win by having your opponent run out of benched Pokemon? Like, Idk, when there are no benched Pokemon left and six prizes have not been drawn, you don't lose until your opponent has taken six prizes. I know there are a lot of holes in that idea, like stalling, but just getting that out there. Maybe if you have no Pokemon in play you would have to play open-hand? I don't know, just an idea I had to possibly lessen donks.
 
The game would be better, in my opinion, if the donk was less prevalent, or even eliminated all together. However, I don't think any rule changes would really do a good job curtailing that. Ultimately, that's a gameplay decision and up to the card designers. They have to design the game rules and the cards in such a way that donks don't happen, and I think any attempted outside manipulation by P!P wouldn't be good for the game. (On a positive note, it seems the game is getting way less donk oriented with the release of new cards. Once we hit an HGSS-on format donks will be much less common, especially with the B&W rule changes.)

As for Match Play (I'm going backwards :p ), I haven't been playing long enough to really have much experience, so I just won't bother commenting.

The same can be said of tournament length; I just haven't played long enough to experience big events where I played at a high level to see a tournament go extremely long. I also haven't played long enough to have much knowledge on the subject of draws. To my knowledge, Pokemon had draws, but people were gaming the system (which I personally don't know anything about), and so they were taken out. It seems to me that whole issue is a weighing of pros and cons. To put it another way, choosing the lesser of two evils. I'm sure I'll have a stronger opinion on this in another year or so :p
 
I agree with parts one and two, but i think turn one losses are already pretty avoidable, and is just a part about the game that is probably not going to be "fixed." And personally, i think P!P should be foucusing on the ranking system at the moment. But i wouldn't mind a twenty-minute time limit for a game either.
 
I know Japan has 30-card (or is it 40-card?) deck tournaments with 3 or 4 prizes. What about trying that over here? It would give players a chance to play against more opponents too, since you could fit more rounds in a tournament. Sure, I'd rather play 60-card Pokemon, but if we can't allow adequate time for 6 prize games, what's the point?
At their lower level events, they also don't use Swiss. It is more like league play with a line. Those who reach the set goal of wins gets the promo card.

It would appear that Japan likes fast games and maybe even donks. Fast games means table space accommodates more games.
 
i agree

What if you couldn't win by having your opponent run out of benched Pokemon? Like, Idk, when there are no benched Pokemon left and six prizes have not been drawn, you don't lose until your opponent has taken six prizes. I know there are a lot of holes in that idea, like stalling, but just getting that out there. Maybe if you have no Pokemon in play you would have to play open-hand? I don't know, just an idea I had to possibly lessen donks.

i agree but i think that a way to do this well is if your opponent runs out of bench but you get to draw a prize every time they draw but they can still use supporters and crap to get the cards or they only have 3 turns as an example to get the basic pokemon they need before they lose the game it also gives you time to setup anyway
 
Sped through, but T1 wins are legit. I'm sorry; there are MANY ways to stop donks; and I don't think that they should be discouraged (coming from a Beedrill G player).

P.S. Thank you to Rob for being the inspiration to Beedrill G too.
 
Fortunately Crobat G and Poke-Turn will be gone after this year, when the next four sets are rotated which includes Platinum. There's no need to make it completely HGSS-on.

Also, Seeker is what has made Rob's deck much more effective recently.
 
well the 1st rule realy matters whos organizing it like 4 example i no 1 person who can do like a 5 round top 4 in like 5 hours were as someone else might take 6+ hours so u cant realy fix that problem
 
I could live with draws back in the game IF a game was legitimately played and at time, the prize count was tied. What I don't like about IDs was the ones doing so in the last rd...mass IDs at the top tables leaves a sour taste in the mouth for those that still had a chance to advance. The game was meant to be played at the tables, not decided before the 1st card is drawn.

As to length of tourneys, it comes down to numbers. I believe OP has ideas to address this for the future. There are partial solutions in the system already. Not all are the greatest ie swiss -1, pods, etc. We, as tourney organizers, need to do the best job we can to turn rds quicker. Also look at ways to get/have food present to shorten lunch and dinner breaks.

Keith
 
The entire game has become unplayable IMO, its not even the donkers that bother me, uxie is the issue because you can just freely throw away your recources without any planing, if you run out of stuff just drop uxie. Then we have Crobat aka "why do we even print damage numbers on attacks" anymore, fainting spell (seriously, WHAT?!) and Champ etc. And sp is just overpowered... And forrestress otk is something I could live without as well.

So whats to do? Obviously the solution wouldve been to give us a better rotation. PT-On and SPs are still strong but SP without Uxie cant just randomly burn resources anymore. Japan has HGSS-on now because they realize what happened. I guess the only real fix is too just sit out this season til sf/la/pt are finally gone and this game stops being a speedrun and donkfest...

Theres always next season I guess (when worlds are in hawai so all ranking invites in europe basically become worthless and everything xcept for nats doesnt even matter... :rolleyes:)

~~~~~~~~+

The matchplay rule makes it even worse but no matter what format, this rule just needs to go. Ness, Im not sure if youre a professor but if you are, could give some input on that topic on the professor board?

~~~~


No opinion on the draw thing because Ive never experienced it but wouldnt a draw be quite easy to abuse?
 
Re: Duration of tournaments -- I think the game is just in a growing pain stage at the moment, and soon we'll have 2 day states and regionals, and the problem will mostly be solved. I understand why events can't always be held over multiple days right now, but I think in time that will change

I'm not really a fan of draws, though. It's not the worst idea ever and it certainly would help with tournament duration, but I think there are better ways to lessen the time it takes to finish a tournament than reinstating IDs.

As far as different formats, that's something I've been pushing for for quite a while. I'd absolutely love to see some tournaments played with 30-card decks, or some played draft/sealed format. I know it's a longshot, but I'd even like to see an Extended format created. It would be amazing if next year, when the schedule is announced, we hear that Cities are Modified, States are draft, and Regionals are extended. I'd absolutely love that.

Re: Match play -- I don't think anyone wins in this situation. If you say that 4 prizes must be drawn, people will complain. If you rule that the number of prizes drawn is irrelevant, people will complain. I think this is something we're just going to have to deal with, as the only ideas I can think of that would help with this are: Having no time limit in top cuts of tournaments, and having a best-of-5 for the top cut. In both situations I would say that these rules for top cut should only be applied to top 8s and above, and in both cases, either rule would extend the length of tournaments significantly.

Re: Turn 1 Losses -- I don't think there's anything you can do about this. Turn one wins aren't a design flaw of the game at all, they're meant to be there. That's how the game is designed. That's why Machamp SF, Sableye SF, Crobat G, Poke Turn, Seeker, etc. exist: to facilitate a format where games are over on the first turn. I can see how people would be upset that there's so many quick wins in this game, but short of changing the design philosophy in Japan, I'm not sure that anything can be done.

One idea I have thought of would be allowing a player who's KO'd all of their opponent's Pokemon, yet not taken six prizes, to simply attack at the end of their turn for a prize. This would make it so games didn't simply end when one player ran out of Pokemon, but would still put players with no Pokemon on the field at a disadvantage. This rule would also change the philosophy of the game drastically, though, and I don't expect/wouldn't necessarily want it to be implemented.
 
What are ID's?

And I don't believe that continuing a game when one person has no pokemon on the field is a viable option. It may seem like a dumb analogy, but when a trainer is only carrying three pokemon on them and you defeat them all, you don't continue on to attack the trainer. Even though it would just be a rule to eliminate donking in games, you are implying that the other trainer is the new target and I don't think TPCi will do that.
 
@Reina: ID = Intentional draw.

And yeah, I agree completely. The fluff of Pokemon is that you're battling each others Pokemon, not each other. Maybe a better rule would be that if you're ever left without a field of Pokemon, you get a turn to play a Pokemon before you lose? At least then you could tutor one up and not lose immediately.
 
I don't think extended is ever happening. A lot of people don't hold on to old cards, there are countless incompatibilities with new & old cards, endless rules questions, and it just isn't profitable for PUI. A 30-40 card format, though? That doesn't seem terrible, though I'd much rather have longer tournaments. It's just, we have to be practical.
 
I don't think extended is ever happening. A lot of people don't hold on to old cards, there are countless incompatibilities with new & old cards, endless rules questions, and it just isn't profitable for PUI. A 30-40 card format, though? That doesn't seem terrible, though I'd much rather have longer tournaments. It's just, we have to be practical.


Ness are you sure there were 20 min 60 card tournements in the past. I have been playing since base set and I dont remember anything but 30 min and the n40 mon the last few years.

As for the top cut issue. I think that ould be solved if we just extended the mstch 15 min +3 turns, that should allow most 2nd games t oget to the 4 prize threshold. If not then i think single elimination might be better then what we have now where player can play a close 50 min match , then a player ca nwin game two 2-1 in prizes and the win in sudden death. I dont like that at all, even though of that was the rule two years ago I may have been a state champion.
 
The 20 minute time limits were in the first few years of the TCG, Base to either Rocket/Gym/Neo.
 
definitely bring back the 4 prize rule for game 2. without it, a player that is likely to lose g1 running an aggressive deck will simply draw out time so that he can score a cheap win in game 2 (and perhaps game 3 as well). this is especially beneficial if he is an inferior player and is more likely to lose a mid/long game to a better player

the 4-prize rule combined with the 3 turn rule would make for excellent top cut matches. assuming the game is fairly well-developed, the game 1 loser should have the mindset of a 4 prize game anyway for the purpose of survival. better that than a game decided by 1 prize total. for the game 1s that take 55 out of the 60 minutes available, unfortunate how the game turned out. but if game 1 took 45 minutes and the game 1 loser knew it was unlikely he would come back, scooping at 35 minutes to play a 4 prize game 2 would be smart. with the 3 prize rule, the game 1 loser knows he just needs to take 2 prizes before time to ensure he has a shot at taking the final 2 prizes in time needed instead of his opponent stalling him out. that mindset shoudl be rewarded and not the donkfest that we have now

intentional draws nor other play formats will likely never happen
 
Last edited:
I could make several suggestions that involve changing the gameplay rules, but that is just wishful thinking. I think the best fix for tournaments is a simple rule that a player can have no more than a total of 20 supporter+trainer+stadium cards in the deck.
 
That would just make the game itself slower to actually get set up and that would mean longer games and a longer tournament.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top