Issues Facing the TCG

[losjackal]

I could make several suggestions that involve changing the gameplay rules, but that is just wishful thinking. I think the best fix for tournaments is a simple rule that a player can have no more than a total of 20 supporter+trainer+stadium cards in the deck.

You'd be sacrificing skilled deckbuilding for luck. "C'mon, I need a Supporter....<draw> darn! Another energy." Sounds like a starter deck.

Interesting idea, but 20 is too low. It would become like Wheel of Fortune where every contestant was picking "R, S, T, L, N, E" for their letters because they were the most common. Right now people could have 4 Collector, 4 Bebe's, 4 Communication, 4 Warp Point, 4 Rare Candy, 4 BTS? Not quite fair. Cards like Poke Blower and Poke Drawer force you to run 4 of them optimally because they operate best when you have 2 in your hand.

35-40 could be an interesting number to prevent a donk deck from having too many trainers.

If Uxie LA is the culprit, he will be gone too after this year. If people are afraid of donk decks, then adjust your build you have a chance of trainer or psychic locking first turn. The donk deck players live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[Prime]

Extended seems possible. Target/Wal-Mart are always selling old product bundled with newer sets. At least if Extended was available, some players wouldn't lose their top when the new cool promo is bundled with a few older packs.

Worst of two evils: must draw 4 prizes or can win by only taking one prize. The way I see it, a player can lose normally in swiss (or game 1 in top cut) if they get first turn donked or time (+3) ends with them 6/5 (prize ratio). Why is it frowned upon for game 2 in top cut? I'd rather the game ends normally (by donking, up on prizes, bench out, deck out) than institute artificial rules (must takes 4 prizes to get credit for win) in order to deter short game wins. Short games are part of the game, and we see them all over Swiss and in Top Cut (Masters, Nationals 2010, Finals, Erik Nance donks Con Le).

TPC changing the use of Rare Candy is going to deter Stage 2 Donking a bit, like for cards like Jumpluff HGSS or Kingdra Prime UL. Perhaps with no Shuppet or Uxie in HGSS-on, there won't be any more T1 Donk.

Time limit-wise, I agree with Kwisdumb that the game is growing and in a few years, States and Regionals will be 2-day. That just seems the obvious path to me, and the only way it won't happen is if the people with power force it not to.

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One massive problem I see in the game is that we are playing a totally different format than Japan, the country where the game is originally made.

Japan's format is now HGSS-on. TPC will be designing cards to fit this format.

Our format (now) is MD-on, and even 20 months from now, our format will not be HGSS-on. That's a good 5 sets that will potentially not "mesh" well with our format.

We worry about donk, and it seems with the release of cards like Seeker, uxie/shuppet donk is getting a bit better. Players in Japan don't have this issue because Uxie/Shuppet aren't legal in HGSS-on format.

Any decent cards that are released between now and September 2011 are going to help SP decks only become more dominant. Japanese players don't have to worry about this because there are no legal SP cards in HGSS-on format.

Do people realize how far behind format-wise we are with Japan? It will take us until September 2012 (if TPCi follows the standard set rotation cycle) to get back on track with Japan's format...which may be different by then!

Let's not even start the discussion of TPCi manipulating the Japanese sets to produce extra/less products. This throws the progression off all together.

I wouldn't be voicing this concern if the world didn't gather together each year at the World Championships and play the same game. Because we do meet up with the Japanese at Worlds and we do have to worry about the ramifications of TPCi's actions within Japan, I feel there are problems with trying to play a "translated" version of the Japanese Pokemon TCG that isn't the same game, with the same formats, and the same cards available.

 

[smacktack15]

You'd be sacrificing skilled deckbuilding for luck. "C'mon, I need a Supporter....<draw> darn! Another energy." Sounds like a starter deck.

Interesting idea, but 20 is too low. It would become like Wheel of Fortune where every contestant was picking "R, S, T, L, N, E" for their letters because they were the most common. Right now people could have 4 Collector, 4 Bebe's, 4 Communication, 4 Warp Point, 4 Rare Candy, 4 BTS? Not quite fair. Cards like Poke Blower and Poke Drawer force you to run 4 of them optimally because they operate best when you have 2 in your hand.

35-40 could be an interesting number to prevent a donk deck from having too many trainers.

If Uxie LA is the culprit, he will be gone too after this year. If people are afraid of donk decks, then adjust your build you have a chance of trainer or psychic locking first turn. The donk deck players live by the sword, die by the sword.

Yeah but Uxie LA is only 1 of many culprits. If you think SP decks will die without Uxie, believe me when I say that they won't. You will see them abusing random trainer cards, making new builds, etc. I would not be surprised if they started to tech in cards like Magnezone Prime, they just need some speed.

 

[Yoshi-]

Worst of two evils: must draw 4 prizes or can win by only taking one prize. The way I see it, a player can lose normally in swiss (or game 1 in top cut) if they get first turn donked or time (+3) ends with them 6/5 (prize ratio). Why is it frowned upon for game 2 in top cut? .

Benching is a legit win, I dont like it but its the truth. But the game ending because one player could go second is not legit if both have still pkmn left. If a player has to little time and cant draw 4 prices in game 2 so it doesnt count he can blame himself because he couldve scooped earlier. Doesnt work the other way around.

 

[The Gorn]

I'm going to take the time to issue my standard complaint - location of tournaments.

Since 2004, there have been only 2 major events (where major events = Worlds + US Nationals) on the East Coast.

As someone who has traveled for this game, I would sure like some parity in making events accessible to the entire country. We've been fortunate in that we haven't seen a decline in people willing to travel (have we?) but I'm not sure that we can continue to count on that.

Additionally, I would like to see Worlds be in Europe one year. You would think that Europe would deserve to have Worlds there at least once in 10 times.

 

[NoPoke]

Prime: being up on prizes is not a normal game win. It is an accommodation to fit an un-timed game into a timed round.

After 30+3 minutes deciding by prizes isn't an unreasonable accomodation. Deciding by prizes after five minutes is.

 

[meganium45]

Being one of the organizers who handles the larger events (States, Regionals) I do not like the idea of a 2-day event, for several logistical reasons, but have realized that at some point it may be a reality.

If you start as early as possible, keep your pedal to the floor, don't have unforeseen complications, and bring in food for players, you can start a 200+ player event at 11:15, and be done just after midnight. Done it. I have also had the "disasters" where you get delays and are staring 2:00 and later in the face. Those HURT. The players, the organizers, the judges...blech.

The options that other games do in lieu of a 2-day event include making the top cut extremely small (8 players for a 100+ player event), and giving out prizes to the top 8, and not making them play for the title. I don't like either of those solutions.

As for the 30 card deck idea, I love it. It was a blast at the cup, and it is a great way to play the game, both for new players and for experienced players as well. The challenges are there.

I do not like draws, unless they are simply not allowed in the last 2 rounds of a swiss event.

As for the donk, it has been around since the beginning, and decks have from time to time focused solely on it. I am not sure if it disappeard for the neo days (except for the flippy Tyrogue), but I cannot really remember an era where the FTK was not a part of the game. My "I choose you" proposal would simply change the game too much (you choose your active starter every game).

More thoughts to follow.

Vince

 

[StormFront]

I think one good way to avoid donks is not to allow the player who goes second to use any trainers or stadiums. Since BTS, rare candy, plus power, poketurns, expert belt are nearly always involved in a donk. Theoretically it's possible to do 280 base damage on the first turn with Gyarados, but only 80 base damage with AmbipomG (110 with blackbelt) if only supporters are allowed.

 

[Prof Clay]

One way to avoid donks is to change the mulligan rule to allow a player to have the opportunity to redraw until they have 2 basic pokemon with which to start the game. Of course the same rules would apply for the opposing player to be able to draw a card for every mulligan. If you are afraid of only starting with 1 pokemon, then you have the chance to solve the problem.

Idea which might work...though I am sure there are some ways which this could be abused, but it could be better.

 

[Raen]

One way to avoid donks is to change the mulligan rule to allow a player to have the opportunity to redraw until they have 2 basic pokemon with which to start the game. Of course the same rules would apply for the opposing player to be able to draw a card for every mulligan. If you are afraid of only starting with 1 pokemon, then you have the chance to solve the problem.

Idea which might work...though I am sure there are some ways which this could be abused, but it could be better.

I would love something like this. My personal favorite system is to give each player the choice to shuffle their starting hand back in a draw a new one for free, but if they do they can't do it again. A kinda nice risk vs. reward system that I would enjoy.

 

[Jaeger]

One way to avoid donks is to change the mulligan rule to allow a player to have the opportunity to redraw until they have 2 basic pokemon with which to start the game. Of course the same rules would apply for the opposing player to be able to draw a card for every mulligan. If you are afraid of only starting with 1 pokemon, then you have the chance to solve the problem.

Idea which might work...though I am sure there are some ways which this could be abused, but it could be better.

One, key word here IMO is One opitional mulligan, opponent draws 2.

---------- Post added 12/09/2010 at 02:38 PM ----------

But I really do like the idea of a mulligan system in this game.

 

[Pikabruce]

I don't think extended is ever happening. A lot of people don't hold on to old cards, there are countless incompatibilities with new & old cards, endless rules questions, and it just isn't profitable for PUI.

It's not practical to allow extended format for all cards, but I think it would make the tournaments much more interesting if stadium cards from all sets were allowed, particularly since stadium cards are never reprinted. Think of how cool it would be to see in play stadium cards like Chaos Gym, Giant Stump, Cursed Stone, Holon Circle, etc. :lol:

 

[rokman]

I don't think extended is ever happening. A lot of people don't hold on to old cards, there are countless incompatibilities with new & old cards, endless rules questions, and it just isn't profitable for PUI. A 30-40 card format, though? That doesn't seem terrible, though I'd much rather have longer tournaments. It's just, we have to be practical.

Yeah and if Extended was to happen, I'd win everything with Dark Slowking TRR. :thumb:

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Fortunately Crobat G and Poke-Turn will be gone after this year, when the next four sets are rotated which includes Platinum. There's no need to make it completely HGSS-on.

Also, Seeker is what has made Rob's deck much more effective recently.

Didn't know next format had been announced.

 

[Tagrineth]

My idea for fixing the no-bench win condition is if the no-bench win condition was checked at end of turn instead of immediately. That way you'd have that turn to, say, Collector or Bebe's for a basic. If you don't have any defenses back up by the end of your turn, you've lost.

 

[losjackal]

Didn't know next format had been announced.

Of course it hasn't, it's an educated guess. Because it seems unlikely they'd only rotate 3 sets to leave Platinum in the format letting people grumble about SP for yet another year. If they rotate 4 or more, my point still stands.

 

[kwisdumb]

I could make several suggestions that involve changing the gameplay rules, but that is just wishful thinking. I think the best fix for tournaments is a simple rule that a player can have no more than a total of 20 supporter+trainer+stadium cards in the deck.

This would just make the game slower and more luck based. Definitely not something I'd want to see implemented.

35-40 could be an interesting number to prevent a donk deck from having too many trainers.

But wouldn't this essentially be the same thing as having no rules? Very few decks run that many trainers, and it seems odd to make a rule for just one style of deck, especially when that deck could rotate, etc.

Extended seems possible. Target/Wal-Mart are always selling old product bundled with newer sets. At least if Extended was available, some players wouldn't lose their top when the new cool promo is bundled with a few older packs.

I think extended would only be possible if they announced it at the same time as a rotation. For instance, if they said this year they were rotating to HS-on, but extended would be DP-AR, or something, then it wouldn't be too hard of a blow to most players, as everyone would have their MD-on stuff, and some would still have their DP stuff.

I'm going to take the time to issue my standard complaint - location of tournaments.

Since 2004, there have been only 2 major events (where major events = Worlds + US Nationals) on the East Coast.

As someone who has traveled for this game, I would sure like some parity in making events accessible to the entire country. We've been fortunate in that we haven't seen a decline in people willing to travel (have we?) but I'm not sure that we can continue to count on that.

I agree with this. I think that Worlds should be on a rotation of CA-FL, and Nationals should be in the midwest. That would probably make the most sense so that everyone could conceivably get to an event. I think no matter what was decided, though, we'd have people complain.

Additionally, I would like to see Worlds be in Europe one year. You would think that Europe would deserve to have Worlds there at least once in 10 times.

Unless the number of travel rewards were increased, and the prizes on the line were much higher, I think this would be a disaster.

The options that other games do in lieu of a 2-day event include making the top cut extremely small (8 players for a 100+ player event), and giving out prizes to the top 8, and not making them play for the title. I don't like either of those solutions.

I whole heartedly agree with this. I'd rather have super long tournaments where the top cut is roughly 14th of the attendance, than to try and save time by having a much smaller cut, leaving so many players out. I think this is important to keep in mind.

One way to avoid donks is to change the mulligan rule to allow a player to have the opportunity to redraw until they have 2 basic pokemon with which to start the game. Of course the same rules would apply for the opposing player to be able to draw a card for every mulligan. If you are afraid of only starting with 1 pokemon, then you have the chance to solve the problem.

I would rather just have a standard paris mulligan implemented, somehow. I understand that's not entirely possible with having to open with a basic, but I think it would be possible to create something of that sort for Pokemon.

It's not practical to allow extended format for all cards, but I think it would make the tournaments much more interesting if stadium cards from all sets were allowed, particularly since stadium cards are never reprinted. Think of how cool it would be to see in play stadium cards like Chaos Gym, Giant Stump, Cursed Stone, Holon Circle, etc.

Extended definitely wouldn't include all of the cards ever printed. Rather the last 4-5 years, or something around there.

 

[yoshi1001]

Turn one wins aren't a design flaw of the game at all, they're meant to be there.

Something can be "meant to be there" and still be a design flaw. Fossil Ditto, anyone? :wink:

Additionally, I would like to see Worlds be in Europe one year. You would think that Europe would deserve to have Worlds there at least once in 10 times.

They'd probably have to have it in a major US city like NY or Chicago as a test run before moving it overseas.

 

[Darkwalker]

The only solution I see for larger and longer tournaments is by using the pod system the had at Nats. Breaking 200 people down to two groups of 100 and then combining the top cuts for each group should shorten the tournament as a whole down to a more manageable time frame. If necessary, breaking it down even further (to 4 pods) could be done if there was a huge turnout for a given event. Personally, I would rather avoid a two day tournament not named Nats or Worlds if possible.

 

[Lawman]

Extended seems possible. Target/Wal-Mart are always selling old product bundled with newer sets. At least if Extended was available, some players wouldn't lose their top when the new cool promo is bundled with a few older packs.

Worst of two evils: must draw 4 prizes or can win by only taking one prize. The way I see it, a player can lose normally in swiss (or game 1 in top cut) if they get first turn donked or time (+3) ends with them 6/5 (prize ratio). Why is it frowned upon for game 2 in top cut? I'd rather the game ends normally (by donking, up on prizes, bench out, deck out) than institute artificial rules (must takes 4 prizes to get credit for win) in order to deter short game wins. Short games are part of the game, and we see them all over Swiss and in Top Cut (Masters, Nationals 2010, Finals, Erik Nance donks Con Le).

TPC changing the use of Rare Candy is going to deter Stage 2 Donking a bit, like for cards like Jumpluff HGSS or Kingdra Prime UL. Perhaps with no Shuppet or Uxie in HGSS-on, there won't be any more T1 Donk.

Time limit-wise, I agree with Kwisdumb that the game is growing and in a few years, States and Regionals will be 2-day. That just seems the obvious path to me, and the only way it won't happen is if the people with power force it not to.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One massive problem I see in the game is that we are playing a totally different format than Japan, the country where the game is originally made.

Japan's format is now HGSS-on. TPC will be designing cards to fit this format.

Our format (now) is MD-on, and even 20 months from now, our format will not be HGSS-on. That's a good 5 sets that will potentially not "mesh" well with our format.

We worry about donk, and it seems with the release of cards like Seeker, uxie/shuppet donk is getting a bit better. Players in Japan don't have this issue because Uxie/Shuppet aren't legal in HGSS-on format.

Any decent cards that are released between now and September 2011 are going to help SP decks only become more dominant. Japanese players don't have to worry about this because there are no legal SP cards in HGSS-on format.

Do people realize how far behind format-wise we are with Japan? It will take us until September 2012 (if TPCi follows the standard set rotation cycle) to get back on track with Japan's format...which may be different by then!

Let's not even start the discussion of TPCi manipulating the Japanese sets to produce extra/less products. This throws the progression off all together.

I wouldn't be voicing this concern if the world didn't gather together each year at the World Championships and play the same game. Because we do meet up with the Japanese at Worlds and we do have to worry about the ramifications of TPCi's actions within Japan, I feel there are problems with trying to play a "translated" version of the Japanese Pokemon TCG that isn't the same game, with the same formats, and the same cards available.

Matt: Japan normally plays a different game than we do anyway when it comes to most tourneys. They play 30 and 40 card decks (3 or 4 prizes). They play single elim....basically...win and you stay at table, lose and go to end of the line. Wait in line to play again.

Japan has adjusted to our "format" every Worlds bc they have ALWAYS been a few sets ahead of us.

Keith