Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

Donks are healthy, i know they result in "cheap" wins but they are a legit strategy, it also gives players a chance to go to tourneys and just play quick games if they are tired etc. Also sometimes they can help keep a deck in check, not so much right now though, and also to say donks are bad most of the decks built around JUST getting a donk tend to falter at the end or to a trainer locking deck(aka Uxie donk if they don't win T1 and then you play double tomb or vileplume you will prolly win or if a straight machamp deck doesn't win T1 vs. Gengar they lose almost instantaneously)

 

[Yoshi-]

I kinda like donks, I went against a guy once, and lost, next week, donked him, I wont forget how good it felt to donk, so who cares? If its a WC NC match, well then, just be proud you got there! But I guess it doesnt feel great to be donked but it has to happen at some time or another right? You've probably donked someone before and if you dont like doing it, then dont, or play a second match for fun.

What a bucnh of bogus. You cant beat the guy but at least you donked him, bet that felt sooog ood, right?
And no Ill still take a donk but you can be against donks and still take them, I play with whatever rules we have, doesnt mean I like them...

@above

If youre tired and dont feel like playing, WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PLAYING?!

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

J-Wittz just released his latest episode of Prof-It! I can't post a link to it because I will likely get an infraction for advertising.

Anyway, the episode suggested ways that the rules could be modified to help limit donks. I mean donks have always been around and they unfortunately will always be around, but the way the rules are, donk are way too common.

I don't suggest banning cards, however some suggestions in the episode were:

-Make swiss games best of 3. Now some people will be turned off by this idea because it immediately puts the thought into their mind that rounds will go on longer. However time limits don't have to be extended. It will just allow players who were denied a game because of a donk the chance to come back and possibly take the win. Every other card game I know of at the moment has best of 3 for organized play. I guarantee donk decks would fail in a format like this.

-Make it so the player that is going first can play trainers and supporters, but cannot attack. This way a player can hopefully get out 4 pokemon before a deck like uxie donk takes their turn.

However posting solutions like these was pretty much a waste of time. That's because P!P will most likely just ignore them. As POP has done in the past.

 

[PokemonPizzaParty]

What a bucnh of bogus. You cant beat the guy but at least you donked him, bet that felt sooog ood, right?
And no Ill still take a donk but you can be against donks and still take them, I play with whatever rules we have, doesnt mean I like them...

@above

If youre tired and dont feel like playing, WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PLAYING?!

I edited my deck then we started a rematch, also isnt it a nice feeling when you beat someone you recently lost to? Anyways, we all have our opinion, that was also, my first and only donk

 

[Blue Blur]

And this is the exact problem, IMO you shouldt be able to prevent your opponent from playing. If a strategy is slow a player might have to sac 2 prices but then he probably has a better setup and it becomes a battle of using the better setup to make up for the prices. But if decks prevent you from playing, not because your deck is inconsistent but because you just got locked and didnt topdeck?

An opening hand and topdeck reliant game is a bad game because winners get decided on factors that players cant do anything about . The faster a game gets the more do opening hands / topdeck focused it becomes. A deck cant become much faster then sp.

I dare anyone to proof me wrong on this.
And, just in case you didnt know, just because the game we play right now is played like this doesnt mean it always was like this. I didnt play during the base set days but from what ive read (ive read a worlds report from ness somewhere) it sounds like a terrible mess tbh.
But did you play during the delta days? You had some time to setup, if you had a bad opening hand you could draw tons of cards with castform/stevens advice and even if your opponent was faster you could still fight back. Dead hands where rare because there were enough setup cards and no overpowered disruption. You had cards that COMBOED and combo meant "pokemon that support each other" and not "pokemon that are good and can be stuffed into the same deck", you could play tons of techs because they wouldnt get in the way, you could cmbine different decks, different lines, lines often had multiple options so you could e.g. tech 1 metagros delta i your metagross dx deck, you could basically fit pokemons that you thought might have some strategy into your deck and could make it run, somehow. Anf then it came down to who had the better strategy. This is the game I started playing back then, this is the prime of pokemon, right now were like in the dark age of pokemon.

..Shuppet anyone? lol
Seriously though, SP has some bad starts, thats why it isn't being played anymore....joking

 

[xcfrisco]

Make swiss games best of 3. Now some people will be turned off by this idea because it immediately puts the thought into their mind that rounds will go on longer. However time limits don't have to be extended. It will just allow players who were denied a game because of a donk the chance to come back and possibly take the win. .

Wow, I really really really like this idea man. :thumb:

Seriously all my donk matches this season were over in like 30 seconds to 1 minutes max. The other 29 mins I spent wandering around the comic book shop not trying to get bored, lol.

 

[amphachu]

What is 4 Call Energies?

A play set of cards that not every deck runs/needs, oh, and even decks that do run them dont always start with it in hand. That is what 4 call energies are.

 

[Top Cut Comics]

Below you will find my solution to offset donks.... as noted in other posts here about donks...

This idea would also allow more table time even if you took a T1 KO.

Currently the rule book states…..

You win the game if any one or more of these things occur:
• You collect all of your Prize cards (collect Prize cards as your opponent’s Pokémon are Knocked Out).
• Knock Out your opponent’s last Pokémon in play.
• Your opponent is out of cards in his or her deck, when he or she goes to draw a card at the beginning of the turn.

Let’s take a look at the second bullet point. It is saying, if you cannot promote another pokemon from your bench into the active spot at the beginning of your turn, you lose the game. This is where I think we are being limited. Other games allow you to continue playing with no cards on the field and I believe it could also work here.

Here is the ruling change I would suggest to help the game.

You win the game if any one or more of these things occur:
• You collect all of your Prize cards (collect Prize cards as your opponent’s Pokémon are Knocked Out).
• Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn.
• Your opponent is out of cards in his or her deck, when he or she goes to draw a card at the beginning of the turn.

Seems like a simple fix to increase playing time for all involved. This would allow new players to compete with experienced players without having a game decided by the opening coin flip. All the current rules would remain the same. No need to alter the current trainer rules, as now player one would get a chance to play the game. This is what we are looking for after all. This rule could apply throughout the entire game. Think of the options this would bring to building decks. What a fun time it would become.

So with a rule change, I have thought about how it would affect the game as a whole. There are certainly some questions that would arise with a change of that nature. I will list the ones I thought of and would be willing to talk through some I did not think about.

First, If I have no pokemon in play at the beginning of my turn and I play a Pokemon Collector. Does one of the pokemon go DIRECTLY into the active or on the bench then promoted?

Now I am not a part of the rules team, But, I think I could handle this one…. I would have to say benching your poke FIRST would be required in order to PROMOTE it active. This would allow coming into play powers to activate prior to having it become your active.

Lastly, If my opponent does not promote a pokemon and ends his turn, what happens??? YOU WIN!!!

Let’s face it, if player 2 takes a KO turn one, he/she is still facing a huge uphill battle. But at least it’s a battle!!! Table time increase the overall enjoyment of the game. It would also encourage people to practice, scout, and get creative with their deck choices. I want to make something very clear here…. I do not intend this to be a bashing session for players who run auto-pilot decks. There is no bashing anyone for wanting to win. It has been proven that these style of decks win tournament. Why not run them???

Jimmy

 

[Austino]

What about something as simple as:

"At the end of your opponent's turn, if he/she doesn't have a pokemon in play, you may take a prize card."

 

[Pikabruce]

What about something as simple as:

"At the end of your opponent's turn, if he/she doesn't have a pokemon in play, you may take a prize card."

Better yet, the rule would apply at the end of each player's turn, so a player will lose 2 prizes before he has another turn. (Since, if your opponent does not have a Pokemon in play, you have nobody to attack. If there is only one prize at stake, some players might make the strategic decision not to put a Pokemon in play during their turn, and forfeit the one prize. But if 2 prizes are at stake, that is very different.)

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Jimmy's suggestion would require Japan to change the core rules of the game ... but IMHO it's the best possible solution.

Swiss best 2 of 3 is something that P!P can do without Japan though. It would require more Judge time though if they have to mark the match slips for each w/l in Swiss.

 

[SLOW DECK]

I think Jimmy's rule change would need to be contemplated in the entire game and format design. I think there could be some unintended consequences of such a rule.

IE. NEW BROKEN Game states would emerge where a player purposely plays no Bench. For example (Simple Example), playing only a Umbreon active for a body. Giving No Target for opponents. (There are probably a several ways to abuse this change in rule in the current format)

Not saying the solution wouldn't work, just need to make sure in the current and future releases, such a rule doesn't just create even more and bigger problems. Overall Big Picture, Long Term, Game Design issues.

A simplier rule modification that says you can use ONE UXIE "Set Up" Power per turn woud slow down many decks to a more reasonable speed. (Someone suggested this) Thus Donk's could still happen, but not with the lethal consistency that UXIE multi Donk can achieve. It wouldn't spike the entire format that way either, it just prevents massive first trainer turns from carpet bombing a board.

 

[poinko]

I think Jimmy's rule change would need to be contemplated in the entire game and format design. I think there could be some unintended consequences of such a rule.

IE. NEW BROKEN Game states would emerge where a player purposely plays no Bench. For example (Simple Example), playing only a Umbreon active for a body. Giving No Target for opponents. (There are probably a several ways to abuse this change in rule in the current format)

Not saying the solution wouldn't work, just need to make sure in the current and future releases, such a rule doesn't just create even more and bigger problems. Overall Big Picture, Long Term, Game Design issues.

Additionally, it doesn't make sense in the context of the video game, which the TCG itself is based on and draws its core rules from. If you're a trainer during a Pokémon battle with only four Pokémon and your opponent knocks them all out, you can't pause the battle and withdraw a Pokémon from the PC and keep going.

If Pokemon TCG wasn't based upon a video game and was its own entity, I think this idea would be a lot more viable. I'm not saying it's a BAD idea, I actually kind of like it. Changing the core rules to prevent a specific situation that pops up probably 20% of the time or less is more like trying to kill a housefly with a Steelix.

 

[chriscobi634]

Additionally, it doesn't make sense in the context of the video game, which the TCG itself is based on and draws its core rules from. If you're a trainer during a Pokémon battle with only four Pokémon and your opponent knocks them all out, you can't pause the battle and withdraw a Pokémon from the PC and keep going.

If Pokemon TCG wasn't based upon a video game and was its own entity, I think this idea would be a lot more viable. I'm not saying it's a BAD idea, I actually kind of like it. Changing the core rules to prevent a specific situation that pops up probably 20% of the time or less is more like trying to kill a housefly with a Steelix.

i don't believe that for a second. the video game and tcg are two completely different animals.

Jimmy's solution is really the best. The only drawback i see is something like what rob mentioned, there are easy counters to that too.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

I still stand by a best of 3 format.

 

[poinko]

i don't believe that for a second. the video game and tcg are two completely different animals.

Jimmy's solution is really the best. The only drawback i see is something like what rob mentioned, there are easy counters to that too.

The initial idea behind the TCG was for it to play like the video game does. One fighting Pokemon, five in reserve, status effects, all that jazz. They tried to bring the TCG and the game closer together during the eCard series, and there were going to be Pokemon and items you could get from scanning the TCG cards, but that ended up not happening.

And again, when the Advanced generation came out, PCL set up rules for 2 on 2, since that was one of the big new ways of battling when the third gen was introduced. Not to mention a lot of the characters and items featured in the cards have always shown up in the games first.

Every now and then the TCG will go off and do its own thing like the Holon Pokemon, but the TCG and the video game have always been and always will be joined at the hip.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

I think Jimmy's rule change would need to be contemplated in the entire game and format design. I think there could be some unintended consequences of such a rule.

IE. NEW BROKEN Game states would emerge where a player purposely plays no Bench. For example (Simple Example), playing only a Umbreon active for a body. Giving No Target for opponents. (There are probably a several ways to abuse this change in rule in the current format)

Not saying the solution wouldn't work, just need to make sure in the current and future releases, such a rule doesn't just create even more and bigger problems. Overall Big Picture, Long Term, Game Design issues.

Actually the BEST possible abuse would be Uxie, Shuppet, or something like it. Just have Uxie put itself on the bottom of the deck or in your hand each turn and give your opponent NOTHING active or benched to attack. Provided your opponent didn't run Judge it would be hard for them to beat you.

 

[Cyrus]

I think Jimmy's rule change would need to be contemplated in the entire game and format design. I think there could be some unintended consequences of such a rule.

IE. NEW BROKEN Game states would emerge where a player purposely plays no Bench. For example (Simple Example), playing only a Umbreon active for a body. Giving No Target for opponents. (There are probably a several ways to abuse this change in rule in the current format)

Not saying the solution wouldn't work, just need to make sure in the current and future releases, such a rule doesn't just create even more and bigger problems. Overall Big Picture, Long Term, Game Design issues.

A simplier rule modification that says you can use ONE UXIE "Set Up" Power per turn woud slow down many decks to a more reasonable speed. (Someone suggested this) Thus Donk's could still happen, but not with the lethal consistency that UXIE multi Donk can achieve. It wouldn't spike the entire format that way either, it just prevents massive first trainer turns from carpet bombing a board.

Nice job looking at the alt. side of things.

From a short-term perspective, there seem to be some problems with that counter-suggestion due to a power having counted as "used" even if Power Sprayed. However, I like it.
Or maybe the problem is to be found in Crobat G? Quintuple Flash Bites are enough to make someone's head spin in SP, but it's the heart and soul of at least two-three of the donks in your Quadro Uxie Donk.

Either way, when I first read Crobat G, I thought "oh my God, are they seriously printing this thing with no drawback?" It's one of a handful of cards we can safely say revolutionized game play in every format (Modified, Draft, and Unlimited).

 

[Flaming Monkey]

I personally am not trying to get any flaming, since I like donk decks. I like them since they can actually make all of your opponents have to think about how to counter them, and they have to make the player who plays them have to get a good list to do well with them. I ran Shuppet for half of last season for a reason. I got one heck of a skeleton to use for most decks. But, it can also be countered. Currently, many trainer locks are being played where my meta is, and I am fine with it. People who choose to run donk decks have to deal with that, and a lot of times have to go for some secret techs. Plus, the idea of Pokemon being compared to chess is a little odd, but can be done. I don't like it because you can't start with your boards set up in a particular way every game. There is both luck and strategy involved even before the game starts. You have to build a deck that would be how you like to play (obvious). The luck is to have a good draw, and more strategy comes in when you have to make it consistent. The other decks that are not lock may have it slightly harder against donk, but they can still win if built right. If you get it right. Take Steelix for example. It is not a lock deck, and it's pretty hard to kill. There are ways to get around it, but there are also ways back. So, right now I am looking at most of the game happening actually even before it starts. You have to get an awesome deck, and play it very well. I know many of us have seen this before, but how some masters build some junior's decks. Well, this is fine, but the Junior is only learning how to play the deck, and when they try to counter a completely different meta, they ending up losing miserably (unless if they happen to just be a good player on their own). This is why I like donk decks. Many people thought that Shuppet lost to Machamp last season. Wrong. Many people thought that spritomb is an auto win against Shuppet. Wrong. Many people thought that getting more basics could avoid the early loss. Wrong. Many people thought that donk decks are easy to build. Wrong. Most people have awful lists (not trying to brag here, I just think I have a lot of experience with donk decks, and I have played nothing but them this season, too), and they think that they have the best list ever. You also have to know how to play donk decks, and they are not just the kinds of things where you lay trainers down in a random way thinking, "Oh, I am just gonna get everything I need anyway." You have to have a certain order to play the draw cards, or even secret techs. A lot of people think that donk decks take no skill and anybody can play them. This, I disagree with. Almost everyone thinks that they are a joke. Whenever anybody looks at almost any list that I build now, people go, "WHAT!? This isn't how you build this deck at all!" I play them a few times with my freaky little deck (like a Gyarados with no Sableyes)and win very quickly. As long as the pokemon has a low energy cost with at least decent damage, you can donk with it. Donk decks are like any other deck, and have to be played right. The only donks that have nothing to do with how consistent your deck is are the only things that don't need to be played right. Those are the things where you just can't do anything, and will take the loss/win. It is part of the game. The game is just like "normal," except either you had a bad start, they had a good one, or maybe even both. Donk decks just focus on a way to do that every game. You want to win before they can get their big, hard to kill stuff comes out. And some donk decks focus on both that and also killing their hard to kill pokemon. They are just like any other deck, and do not deserve to be treated with any less respect. If you really hate donk decks so much, just play a few counters. You play counters that can be used against other decks, so just make that connection and be ok with it. Discussing and raging in a forum will not make a difference, it will only make you mad at just another type of deck. They are beatable just like any other deck. They need to be treated just like any other deck. They ARE just any other deck. This is just like chatting on a forum about how I hate something that I keep losing to, like SP (I don't normally lose to SP, just a random deck off of the top of my head). Sure, a lot of people think this is a "legit" deck, but every deck is "legit." If you would not like to believe this because you would like to continue being angry for no point, that's fine with me. I am just trying to say that donk decks in fact are just like any other deck. They just focus on something that most people do not like facing. My apologies if this post was a little hard to read, jumping from subject to subject. I just had so much to get out.

Thanks,
Monkey.

 

[Scipio]

Alright, im gonna break that one down.

I personally am not trying to get any flaming, since I like donk decks.
- Yeah, you are gonna get that by just saying that.

I like them since they can actually make all of your opponents have to think about how to counter them, and they have to make the player who plays them have to get a good list to do well with them.
- No, you cannot counter donk decks since its all based on luck of the draw therefore it won't work. I can run 4 Spiritomb, 4 Call Energy and 4 Gastly and still get donked.

I ran Shuppet for half of last season for a reason. I got one heck of a skeleton to use for most decks. But, it can also be countered. Currently, many trainer locks are being played where my meta is, and I am fine with it. People who choose to run donk decks have to deal with that, and a lot of times have to go for some secret techs.
- You mean like Cyclone Energy to push Tomb away so the lock T1 is broken? Such a secret.

Plus, the idea of Pokemon being compared to chess is a little odd, but can be done. I don't like it because you can't start with your boards set up in a particular way every game. There is both luck and strategy involved even before the game starts. You have to build a deck that would be how you like to play (obvious). The luck is to have a good draw, and more strategy comes in when you have to make it consistent. The other decks that are not lock may have it slightly harder against donk, but they can still win if built right. If you get it right. Take Steelix for example. It is not a lock deck, and it's pretty hard to kill. There are ways to get around it, but there are also ways back. So, right now I am looking at most of the game happening actually even before it starts.
- Yes, but the comparison here doesn't really work. If I know you play Steelix, I'll start to think how to play around the big lug, knowing its really hard to KO. However, if I know you run a donk deck, all I can do is pray I get 5 basics in my T1 or I'll lose.

You have to get an awesome deck, and play it very well.
- Which can be netdecked, and one does not need skill to pilot a proper Uxie deck. Coming up with a donk deck is one thing and IS very hard. Netdecking one and running it is as easy as beating a LV1 Pichu with a LV100 Rhyperior.

I know many of us have seen this before, but how some masters build some junior's decks. Well, this is fine, but the Junior is only learning how to play the deck, and when they try to counter a completely different meta, they ending up losing miserably (unless if they happen to just be a good player on their own). This is why I like donk decks. Many people thought that Shuppet lost to Machamp last season. Wrong. Many people thought that spritomb is an auto win against Shuppet. Wrong. Many people thought that getting more basics could avoid the early loss. Wrong. Many people thought that donk decks are easy to build. Wrong. Most people have awful lists (not trying to brag here, I just think I have a lot of experience with donk decks, and I have played nothing but them this season, too), and they think that they have the best list ever. You also have to know how to play donk decks, and they are not just the kinds of things where you lay trainers down in a random way thinking, "Oh, I am just gonna get everything I need anyway." You have to have a certain order to play the draw cards, or even secret techs. A lot of people think that donk decks take no skill and anybody can play them. This, I disagree with. Almost everyone thinks that they are a joke. Whenever anybody looks at almost any list that I build now, people go, "WHAT!? This isn't how you build this deck at all!" I play them a few times with my freaky little deck (like a Gyarados with no Sableyes)and win very quickly.
- All fine and dandy, but if random Scotty McNewbieNoob from Newtown can come to a tournament with a netdecked Machamp list and hold Machop, Rare Candy, Machamp and Fighting Energy in his hand and thus ruin an experienced player's day, then your entire argument is suddenly shot to bits and pieces.

As long as the pokemon has a low energy cost with at least decent damage, you can donk with it. Donk decks are like any other deck, and have to be played right. The only donks that have nothing to do with how consistent your deck is are the only things that don't need to be played right.
- Donks don't need you to play them right. Donks need their opponents to not have the luck of getting enough pokemon.

Those are the things where you just can't do anything, and will take the loss/win. It is part of the game. The game is just like "normal," except either you had a bad start, they had a good one, or maybe even both. Donk decks just focus on a way to do that every game. You want to win before they can get their big, hard to kill stuff comes out.
- No, Donk decks want to win BEFORE THEIR OPPONENT CAN DRAW A CARD TO BEGIN WITH. That is why there is hate on donks. Beating an opponent by denying their setup is a completely different ballgame.

And some donk decks focus on both that and also killing their hard to kill pokemon. They are just like any other deck, and do not deserve to be treated with any less respect. If you really hate donk decks so much, just play a few counters. You play counters that can be used against other decks, so just make that connection and be ok with it.
- You propose to run counters. Well I have to draw them within my opening hand to have them work! And oh, I'd like some consistency vs the rest of the format thanks.

Discussing and raging in a forum will not make a difference, it will only make you mad at just another type of deck. They are beatable just like any other deck. They need to be treated just like any other deck. They ARE just any other deck.
- Nope, they're not. Any other deck at least affords some form of a game. Donk decks do not.

This is just like chatting on a forum about how I hate something that I keep losing to, like SP (I don't normally lose to SP, just a random deck off of the top of my head). Sure, a lot of people think this is a "legit" deck, but every deck is "legit." If you would not like to believe this because you would like to continue being angry for no point, that's fine with me. I am just trying to say that donk decks in fact are just like any other deck. They just focus on something that most people do not like facing. My apologies if this post was a little hard to read, jumping from subject to subject. I just had so much to get out.
- I don't like SP much, but I don't hate on it. Why? Because when playing vs SP, I dont get the feeling my opponent is playing a game of solitaire while I'm doing nothing at all. When I'm playing vs. Uxie...I do get that feeling.

Perhaps what you do not realize is that there is no fun involved in going "Draw...attack for 10, pass, good game cuz you donk my 3 pokes". Also, DOnk decks are solitary plays, NOT match plays.

Admittedly you put a lot of thought in your post...but see it from the point of view from the guy who starts the game with a total of 280 HP on the field and STILL GETS DONKED TURN 1