rokman rants! judges/pokeparents

[Team Cook]

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

You know Rokman, it's comments like above that really give players a bad name. You come on here spewing nothing but trash. The only truth to anything you've posted is the fact that yes, there are a few judges out there that need assistance. Everyone already knows this. And for every pokeparent you want to complain about, TOs and PTOs can match it with young twenty something players wanting to judge but failing and also needing assistance. The difference here is that the TOs and PTOs won't come on here and bash the young ones.

Like someone said above, if you're not happy or hear something wrong, bring it up politely as soon as possible. Coming on here complaining accomplishes nothing.

 

[rokman]

Like someone said above, if you're not happy or hear something wrong, bring it up politely as soon as possible. Coming on here complaining accomplishes nothing.

I haven't complained, once Cook. I've only brought the subject up from observations, and had to keep defending my opinion because all you TOs are taking it personally.......

Where did I complain?

Please quote it for me.

 

[PokePop]

Where did I complain?

Can you please tell me the definition of the word "complain" in your world?
It seems to be different than mine.

 

[PokePop]

It really isn't even about learning every rule there is. Anybody can be a judge. Especially if they HAVE to find the text ruling to make a call, the best judges would be about being a fast researcher, instead of making gut calls that are up to your discretion...

That is the third most important requirement to being a good judge.
You're totally missing the most important requirements.

 

[Team Cook]

I haven't complained, once Cook. I've only brought the subject up from observations, and had to keep defending my opinion because all you TOs are taking it personally.......

Where did I complain?

Please quote it for me.

Here you go.

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

If they ARE slaving over rulings and are consistently bad, then they are just stupid and should not be in a position TO judge!

If this isn't complaining, then what is it? Oh wait, you call it an observation.

 

[kwisdumb]

Well, there is unfortunately a lot of bad pokeparent judges, regardless of you guys defending them. The only reason they judge is for the packs, otherwise they would strive to learn every ruling and every card....

I agree with what you've said in this thread to a large extent, but it's posts like these that are making people get defensive. How about, as a player, you learn every single ruling, so there's no need to even call a judge? I know the analogy doesn't work perfectly, but I think you get the point.

 

[butlerforhire]

I think that this thread would have worked better if it had been about "lazy" judges and not specifically judges who are also Poke-parents. By "lazy" I mean any judge who is brought on board without the proper qualifications, regardless of the reason (be it lack of staff, desire to get cards or professor points, something to do while the kids play, whatever), and who has not put in the effort required of a good judge, such as learning rules and procedures. There are judges of all ages, with and without kids, who could be considered lazy.

I would like to see a thread about how particular PTOs prepare their selected judges to perform at events. I am legitimately interested in the entire process. How are judges trained? How is uniformity achieved?

 

[NoPoke]

The very best judges I've ever known in pokemon have all been pokeparents. In targeting pokeparents in general I think you did not choose your target wisely. Those same best pokeparent judges are more often than not either strong players in their own right or have family who are. They are invested in and committed to having tournaments run properly.

It won't be long before this thread ends up asking what the individuals who complain are going to do to improve the situation. Discussing the issue of judge selection with the PTO would be a good place to start but they had better be prepared for the PTO offering them a spot on staff. Complaining here, especially with such a blanket condemnation, isn't likely to result in any improvements

Here's a different question for you: Why are the top judges in Pokemon pokeparents?

 

[Shadmanv2]

Out of the entire team, all but 3 are Pokeparents. I challenge you to find fault with spookees, Master Professor Birch, Christine, Valerie, ronton, Dwayne, Tonja, Chad, Joey, Simba or myself.

With all due respect, over this past weekend I did find some faults in some of the aforementioned names. I will not say who or what the situations were, but there were instances with not only myself, but my friends where the judging, or attitude of the judges was less than friendly, which having played in New Mexico several times, came as quite a shock. So much so that one of my friends was considering dropping from the tournament completely and leaving the event altogether. I myself had some issues, but nothing too major. Luckily, we spoke to the T.O. and had things a bit ironed out. To her credit, she is indeed one of the best it has been my pleasure of playing in a tournament for.

Now, please don't get me wrong, this isn't a flame or troll or whatever the kids call it, but I do think the overall message is that the team, which you hold in such high regard, while very good, are not perfect. In all fairness, I believe that should be kept in mind when making any comments about judging. They are indeed human and some will make mistakes in rulings, or anything in that matter. Not everyone will know the mechanics, cards, rulings off the top of their head like clockwork, some may, but I'm sure that all important fact that they are indeed human will come into play at one point or another. However, I'm sure that most judges are indeed qualified and have invested the time to learn the criteria necessary to become a judge.

Now, in terms of saying pokeparents are simply judging for the sake of supplying their children cards I don't think is fair. Perhaps some do give their cards to their kids, but does that make them bad judges? I don't think so, what they do with their compensation is their prerogative, the only real argument that garners merit is how they do when they are in fact judging. Now, one that is completely unqualified I would be inclined to agree that perhaps they have no business judging, but as stated earlier, most are qualified and have met the requirements to obtain the title of judge. The judge's test in and of itself is not particularly easy, so it's not as if they simply guessed at the test and got by on a fluke.

Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that these people are human, and some will make mistakes, now, as others have said, if it's a problem, you can file a grievance with P!P, however, approaching the Head Judge, or even the T.O. if need be can alleviate things, as I experienced last weekend.

 

[ShuckleLVX]

I give my judge comp to kids, does that make me a bad judge?

The kids aren't mine, I don't have any of my own, and I have pretty much committed to memory the entire penalty guidelines and the whole compendium. But I give my comp to kids.

You are overgeneralizing, and very rudely. Maybe you only intend to give us your "insights", but you're doing it in a way I personally find offensive, and you're not even mad at me.

 

[MrMeches]

I will tell you honestly that initially I got into Judging because we were short in NTX and needed some help and then I found out I would be getting Packs. So yes, I am a horrible Pokeparent that Judged for Packs. However, somewhere along the way, I began enjoying the aspect of Judging and decided administrative would be the route I would take in my Pokemon adventure. I have made errors along the way, show me a Judge that hasn't I will will show you a fool in rose colored glasses, but that is how WE learn. Then as we progress, WE should begin sharing our knowledge and experiences, which you eluded to, in seminars and training sessions. Personally, I notice the need for the seminar I performed and it was well received and I hope to do another, with my wife's good graces, after Regionals.

Rok , you and I have known each other for many years, and understand the initial statement is what is making the skin crawl on ppl. Many Volunteer not realizing the indepthness of the Judging responsibility. You yourself can reflect and see that for the events you have judged. Take something from me, when you feel your getting bigger than the game and you think you know what is 'BEST' for the community, stop being a part of it. Kara reminded me of that... when it discontinues being about Friendship and Fun, then it becomes frustrating. In several of your links, I witnessed those situations and they all have one common thread, the Player demanding the Judge to be on their side and rule in their opinion.

Whicker's confrontation with me about the Active spot, as I can see his side, was excessive. We had newer Judges that came and asked me to look, and to avoid their confusion, I asked him to move it to the centralized active area as it is shown on the playmat provided in the preconstructed decks. Is that unreasonable for such a Top Tier Player? Would Pooka or Jason take such a defensive stand or would they adjust and move on?

In Ron's explanation of events, he failed to mention that is how they played during the entire match. Now suddenly during a crisis moment he wants to create an issue out of something he had allowed for 30 minutes prior.

See where the Us ~v~ Them scenario begins to unfold. If you had problems with certain Judges, then you know how to reach me of all people. But making a generalized statement is where the offensive side comes into play. That is why so many (P)TOs are commenting.

Hit me up later to discuss more if desired.

Fish

 

[rokman]

Having some sleep helped me realize, I probably should have re-arranged the topics I brought up in the original post. A lot of the discussion in this thread is about motives for pokeparents, and that really isn't even the issue. I only said that because I couldn't think of any other reason as to why someone would judge a tournament and be okay about being wrong all the time.

I also probably should have just made this topic about bad judges period and not said anything about pokeparents, mostly because I had no idea everybody would get so offended and what not. I've just noticed the trend and used them as an example of what I'm trying to stop.......

And yes, most older adults in the community ARE pokeparents (why else would so many grown people be in the game?) and I've realized that is a huge group of people. So, often times, most judges are pokeparents and it's only a few that are bad.

But come on guys, none of you have told me I'm wrong, there are PLENTY of bad pokeparent judges. You guys have just been picking at things I've said...

I give my judge comp to kids, does that make me a bad judge?

Where did I say that was a reason they are bad judges???? :nonono:

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Rokman. I find your topic thought-provoking and interesting.

You are allowed to vent your frustrations and they don't offend me at all. So, I'll convo with ya

WHEN I WAS STARTING OUT (as a PokeParent about 5 years ago i think...)

I actually studied the compendium weekly to ensure that I could help MY DAUGHTER learn the rules properly, so she wouldn't feel inadaquate when some bully kid was like "YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT???"

I was REALLY into playing and was just asked to judge one day because I'm so responsible with children.
After awhile, my PTO was like "You should take the professors test. You know all the rules."

ABOUT EXPERIENCE vs. "studying"

What I learned is that you have to PLAY the game alot to really be a solid judge. Understanding the mechanics of decks and matchups (and common techs) makes you a more approachable judge. People can just casually call out a situation with the knowledge that you're well versed in the jargon; you can issue a very quick ruling and they can continue to play on without a hitch.

i.e.
"Hey, Mr. W., can I snipe the night spin Dnoir X if he's been cycloned back?"
Me = "yep"
"Does it become a stadium?"
Me = "nope."

So...

MY response to your topic is two-fold.

1. You have judges that PLAY the game actively. ("Type A")

2. You have judges that don't (or don't have much tournament play experience). ("Type B")

The first type ("Type A") doesn't really need to "study" anything. He just needs to know a few NEW rulings that have come down since his last experience (and it's probably on a card he's currently playtesting anyway). So, rulings come naturally and easily. There are only ruling mistakes made by VERY unique plays and NEW rulings.

The second type ("Type B") is well intended. He is filling a position that nobody else wants. Players play and they want the rankings. Some judges judge so YOU CAN HAVE AN EVENT to play in. So, these judges will make many mistakes and will need to check with other judges to verify rulings.
Be patient with this type (unless they're clueless AND irritable about it).
Chances are, they already know they're screwing up and they have to just stand there feeling insecure about it. Nevertheless, this is the position they put themselves in so their child can have a fully staffed event.

"THE CARD HOARDER"

Many new pokeparents have no idea about what they're going to get as a reward from judging. I was asked to judge and had to think about it even when someone told me "you get half a box for judging that!" I like to play. Judging takes my edge away and I don't get an opportunity to earn respect from the other players by staying off of the matchup sheets.

There ARE people who judge just to get their kids some cards. I can't really hate on that though Rok. Some parents just don't have the scrilla to cough up a buck and change for a box of cards to keep thier kids fresh in the format man.
Sometimes, that's a strong selling point to get some more judges into your area. "Hey, I know a way you can get your kids some cards." At some point followed by "If you ever have any questions about a ruling, just come to me. Try to read the "Ask the rulings team" threads a couple times per week though. They help you stay current."

ABOUT "STUDYING"

For REAL for real... I'm just not going to sit down and cram the compendium to judge an event.
It's not a 'fun' read. The compendium isn't written in that style.
I'm, actually, worried if a judge next to me says "I studied the compendium every night this week."
THAT would, actually, lead me to think he doesn't know the game very well.

If you play, you know.

I could care less about WHY someone judges. My OWN pet peeve is about anyone who becomes a PROFESSOR or A JUDGE without a good amount of premier tournament experience. It's like learning your craft before you 'level up.' Being an experienced player turned judge just makes sense to me.

ABOUT MISTAKES:

I make them. It's how you deal with your mistakes that makes the difference.
My absolute LAST resort is a warning. I just don't like having to issue any sort of formal reprimand on anyone.
I try to let people laugh, play, and enjoy their time together.

If something comes up and I'm wrong. I acknowledge it and I do whatever I can to repair the game state and get those players going (even if that means issuing a time extension). If I don't know something, I ask (even if I have to sneak by one of our BOSS ranked players and ask).

People don't really mind you NOT knowing something; they just don't want to take any losses because of it!!

Having an ill-equiped judge isn't the real issue. It's having a system in place that allows bad rulings to stay in place and affect the win/loss column. If the inexperienced/unknowledgable judge is willing to learn from mistakes, you'll grow your judge pool and laugh those mistakes off in time.

I've gotta get back to work now...

 

[rokman]

Thanks a ton RA for actually talking about this instead of nit-picking at my choice of words! Haha, I do appreciate it, now that this topic won't completely devolve.....

I totally agree with everything you said. But I would like to mention, I never meant "judging for cards" as an insult. (and for that matter, anything I said was not meant to be insulting, it just came out that way ;_ That's why I judge small events instead of playing. I get to help out and I get some packs, heck yeah. (so can we finally let this topic of motives die? It wasn't even meant to be the discussion???? -_-)

But I probably should have done what you did, and separate judges into archetypes in my initial post. That's a really interesting topic and I might write up another poorly worded rant that infuriates a bunch of random people on the internet some other time!

If something comes up and I'm wrong. I acknowledge it and I do whatever I can to repair the game state and get those players going (even if that means issuing a time extension). If I don't know something, I ask (even if I have to sneak by one of our BOSS ranked players and ask).

This is exactly the type of judge I wish EVERY judge was.

But, my idea was this, when a judge is sent to a table and asked a ruling (tiny ones to major ones), s/he needs to bust out a rule book, find the text, point at it, show it to the players, and read it. This would prevent a.) wrong rulings b.) judges feeling the need to acknowledge they were wrong/whatever c.)a smoother tournament with less problems. d.) removes any inconsistency between different judges.

And this comes back to a thing that happened at OK states this past weekend, a player's sleeves were horrendously marked (so I've heard, I didn't see them) and I think instead of the judges pulling the players aside and "talking it out" the judges should whip a rule book out, point down at text that says something like "if any of a players sleeves are different from the rest, these penalties should be issued: ..........." That would have like resolved the issues immediately, people wouldn't feel they are being picked on, etc. Because if it says in plain official documents what the judge is supposed to do, how could the player argue what happened to him?

I don't know. I just think it's getting ridiculous that at almost every single tournament I attend, something happens that it shouldn't. Most of the time it's TINY things that don't matter, or it's tiny things that don't matter that is blown out of proportion, or it's something real. And often times, it's usually a judge's fault these things go wrong, whether a ruling/penatly was wrongly given, or the judge handled a situation wrong.




and Here's another thread that shows how differently people rule things: http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143457

And yes, I can go to the tournament's TO and talk about what happened with whatever judge, but that doesn't put me (or whoever) in the top cut chair where they should be at that moment. And for that matter, e-mailing Pokemon doesn't do that either!

 

[NoPoke]

"random people" there you go again with the ill considered insults: so if I'm infuriated by your posts I can be dismissed as random? *shrug* FWIW I don't take offense at what you are posting but you are not helping your cause at all with the continued negative comments on judges in general.

=====

marked sleeves is not such a quick issue as you suggest. A determination of intent has to be made too and that can take time.

Its the judges fault when things go wrong?? Judges are usually just clearing up the mess. Some do a much better job than others but they don't get involved until there is a mess. Even that issue over the centering of the active is to prevent a tiny mess from turning into a big mess.

 

[rokman]

"random people" there you go again with the ill considered insults: so if I'm infuriated by your posts I can be dismissed as random? *shrug* FWIW I don't take offense at what you are posting but you are not helping your cause at all with the continued negative comments on judges in general.

Nitpicking at my choice of words. *shrug*

Its the judges fault when things go wrong?? Judges are usually just clearing up the mess. Some do a much better job than others but they don't get involved until there is a mess. Even that issue over the centering of the active is to prevent a tiny mess from turning into a big mess.

Yes, it is. Things are bound to go wrong and ~90% of the time it's a ridiculously small issue that has no effect on anything, but it's the judge who makes it a bigger issue.

Also, NoPoke, aren't you in ENGLAND? I have no earthly idea what things are like for you over there, so how would you know what it's like for me????????????

It's getting really exhausting defending my opinions because every single word or phrase I'm using is being thrown in my face, so just forget it.

 

[SD PokeMom]

since you weren't involved in the sleeves issue, how do you know that the HJ et al did NOT break out the tourney rules/penalty guidelines when making their ruling and dealing with the player(s)?

judges/TOs/PTOs are 'taking this personally'?

a question: as a player, how would you take a judge/TO posting something like this:

"I just think it's getting ridiculous that at almost every single tournament I judge, something happens that it shouldn't. Most of the time it's TINY things that don't matter, or it's tiny things that don't matter that is blown out of proportion, or it's something real. And often times, it's usually a player's fault these things go wrong, whether a card was wrongly played, or the player handled a situation wrong."

just curious...
'mom

 

[rokman]

since you weren't involved in the sleeves issue, how do you know that the HJ et al did NOT break out the tourney rules/penalty guidelines when making their ruling and dealing with the player(s)?

Well, first off, I'm really good friends with the judges that had an issue. And I talked with the player a lot at the tournament, after, and the next day. They all told me what happened after I inquired and I was like 25 feet away from the situation so I saw everything. I was even called over for marked sleeves but it was two random cards with dust marks on the back and the only way to see it was to inspect it under a microscope while looking at it under light. I wasn't given a penalty, I just had to re-sleeve those two. And they did not pull a book out for anybody.

judges/TOs/PTOs are 'taking this personally'?

a question: as a player, how would you take a judge/TO posting something like this:

"I just think it's getting ridiculous that at almost every single tournament I judge, something happens that it shouldn't. Most of the time it's TINY things that don't matter, or it's tiny things that don't matter that is blown out of proportion, or it's something real. And often times, it's usually a player's fault these things go wrong, whether a card was wrongly played, or the player handled a situation wrong."

just curious...
'mom

Well, I'm sure from the perspective of a judge who made an error, it looks like it's the players fault. I mean, they did call the judge over in the first place. But no, I wouldn't take offense to that. There are just as many bad players as there are bad judges........ :frown:

 

[Yoshi-]

I think most parents judge because theyre there anyway and arent interested in playing / want to help out.
Of cause no one will complain about the packs, but why? Its not like judges get incredible amounth of packs for their work. But you can get some stuff for your kids while spending time with them, where is the issue in that? If I want to work while spending time with my children and earn some packs thats fine, isnt it? No one would go there saying "I hate this tu I want boosters" because in that case you might as well get real work.


And honestly, what does a judge really do on pokemon tournaments? IMO you need one or 2 Judges that really know the rules and stuff and then you need a few people for "kindergardening", collecting results, calling the headjudge in case something really went wrong, distributing prizes etc etc etc. Pokemon isnt a rule heavy game. Im glad we have people that are willing to judge, if they dont know there stuff and dont go around acting like they do but get another judge in case they dont know what to do I dont see a problem.

 

[Team Cook]

But come on guys, none of you have told me I'm wrong, there are PLENTY of bad pokeparent judges. You guys have just been picking at things I've said...

Why would we come on here and tell you that you're wrong? We've all agreed that there are some bad judges out there. What was picked at was the way you said it AND you yourself admitted that it should have been written differently.