rokman
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
Because almost every post in this thread is just that? :thumb:
rokman rants! judges/pokeparents
- Thread starter rokman
- Start date
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What has his location have to do with judging principles??? Ian has been at every Worlds that I can think of in the last 6 yrs or more, ON STAFF. Last I checked, he had to judge US players in those matches, along with the rest of the world. Again, you "attack" someone for no reason. I guess that was a "random attack".
I carry the penalty guidelines with me when I judge. I dont carry around a copy of the Compendium (I used to though). I often pull out the page where a rule is and the recommended penalty, so the player understands the reason for the ruling and penalty. Quite often though, we are asked Q's that involve card interaction. That is not covered under the rules and penalties. Heck, it may not have made it into the Comp X even! It isnt always that easy to "pull out text" to prove the point. A judge rules. If you disagree, ask for the HJ. The HJ may or may not pull out text, but they will rule. At that point, you move on.
Keith
Brick wall!
We're telling you you're wrong WITH THE WAY YOU"RE PRESENTING YOUR ARGUMENT.
Again, we agree there's judges that could use a lot of assistance (better than saying they're bad, lol).
rokman
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
Well, him being in England changes a lot. I have never met a judge from England (I have a few players though) and basically know nothing about how things are handled there. And I wouldn't for a second expect him to know what it's like in the Southern United States........
And that's totally awesome, I really think that's great. I would very much appreciate a judge to show me in the text why I was given a penalty and the consequences if I was given one. And when/if that happens, I'll be sure to ask for it in text.
But I rarely see anyone whip out a rules book at tournaments. Maybe like three or four times a season? The whole point of this topic was I thought it would be better for Pokemon if judges carried a rules book around and used it to make rulings. Even if that means re-writing it to get down to every detail.
Come on now. That's a bit ridiculous. I'm not going to ask the highway patrol to show me the speeding law. That would be very disrespectful.
Likewise, you expect some level of expertise and knowlege from the judges. If you feel the judge's ruling is wrong, you can appeal and ask for confirmation, but some rules are so well-known that any request to "show me the rule" is being disrespectful.
There are times when it's appropriate to reference the rules. However, I'd say those times are less common than you think.
rokman
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
Well, with that analogy, there are speed limit signs next to the road like every mile......
And it is your right to ask for the law. And it's part of the police officer's job to answer that. And I doubt there's a single cop that would feel it's disrespectful to ask that.
This is kind of an interesting analogy. Players = drivers, judges = cops. Drivers have to take tests to learn the laws before they can drive. So these things are "understood' amongst drivers. Maybe there should be something like a Professor test for players? Interesting....
meganium45
Active Member
Rokman, you have no idea how bad it can be.
When I started in this game in the WOTC era, we were dealing (in my area) with CROOKED TOs and bad judging not as an exception, but as a rule.
Gym Challenge - Indianapolis. I got to see my son get ROBBED of a trip to Worlds by a Judge who made a bad ruling, completely on his daughter's side, and when his fix didn't go far enough to END the game against my son, he changed it even further at her request! I objected, and was told I was not one of the players, and then objected again, and was asked to leave the venue. GREAT way to treat a 6 year old player.
Central Stadium Challenge - one of the premiere events, judges there who DIDN'T know the rules, didn't care, and had a kid against my son in the Top 8 - top 4 go to Worlds, that Played a Chaos Gym, making my son flip for all his trainers, and whenever he played a trainer - no flip. When my son objected TO A JUDGE, the other player talked his way out of it. When I asked that a judge be assigned to watch the match, they said sure, and the KID KEPT DOING IT. The match was decided by 2 missed flips by my son, followed by a NON-FLIP trainer by his opponent. All the judge wanted to do is mark the match slip and go away. When I went to talk to one of the "Organizers" and I use the term loosely, they explained that any problems had to be taken care of during a match, and when the judge involved was called over, it was OBVIOUS to both me and the organizer that he had NO IDEA what he was watching, and simply took my son's opponent's word for the rulings (incorrectly).
At that point I figured this was simply an insider crooked game, and if it couldn't be run right, then we were done. I went back to ST. L., fought to become a TO, and when Nintendo took over, after a bit of a fight, became a PTO, and have fought tooth and nail to make sure that all events are run FAIRLY.
Why am I placing this in your thread?
To show you how far the game has come. It can improve, and a lot of your points are correct and well taken, but brother, you have no idea how bad it was.
Anyone who was at Nationals 2004 will easily admit - the game has improved infinitely. That event was poor. Nationals, even when small problems occur, is head and shoulders better, and continues to improve.
That being said, keep pointing out weaknesses and room for improvement.
Boy, my turn to rant.
Vince
When I started in this game in the WOTC era, we were dealing (in my area) with CROOKED TOs and bad judging not as an exception, but as a rule.
Gym Challenge - Indianapolis. I got to see my son get ROBBED of a trip to Worlds by a Judge who made a bad ruling, completely on his daughter's side, and when his fix didn't go far enough to END the game against my son, he changed it even further at her request! I objected, and was told I was not one of the players, and then objected again, and was asked to leave the venue. GREAT way to treat a 6 year old player.
Central Stadium Challenge - one of the premiere events, judges there who DIDN'T know the rules, didn't care, and had a kid against my son in the Top 8 - top 4 go to Worlds, that Played a Chaos Gym, making my son flip for all his trainers, and whenever he played a trainer - no flip. When my son objected TO A JUDGE, the other player talked his way out of it. When I asked that a judge be assigned to watch the match, they said sure, and the KID KEPT DOING IT. The match was decided by 2 missed flips by my son, followed by a NON-FLIP trainer by his opponent. All the judge wanted to do is mark the match slip and go away. When I went to talk to one of the "Organizers" and I use the term loosely, they explained that any problems had to be taken care of during a match, and when the judge involved was called over, it was OBVIOUS to both me and the organizer that he had NO IDEA what he was watching, and simply took my son's opponent's word for the rulings (incorrectly).
At that point I figured this was simply an insider crooked game, and if it couldn't be run right, then we were done. I went back to ST. L., fought to become a TO, and when Nintendo took over, after a bit of a fight, became a PTO, and have fought tooth and nail to make sure that all events are run FAIRLY.
Why am I placing this in your thread?
To show you how far the game has come. It can improve, and a lot of your points are correct and well taken, but brother, you have no idea how bad it was.
Anyone who was at Nationals 2004 will easily admit - the game has improved infinitely. That event was poor. Nationals, even when small problems occur, is head and shoulders better, and continues to improve.
That being said, keep pointing out weaknesses and room for improvement.
Boy, my turn to rant.
Vince
He would know as a Pokeparent who has extensive judging experience in multiple counties including the U.S. at events like Worlds. Just sayin. :thumb:
Edit to add: Man, I was seriously beaten to the punch on that one. I didn’t think I was that slow to answer, lol.
rokman
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
Well, first off Vince, you're one of the coolest people in the game I've ever met (and I've only met you like twice). I remember in 04, you were judging/running (not sure) the Southern Gym Challenge and me and my friends just showed up with base set/jungle/fossil cards. We didn't know anything about the game, let alone the concept of modified format. And you set up a tournament for us 4 and gave us a box of EX hidden legends to play for! And since we all share cards, we went insane.
Maybe I wouldn't even be involved in Pokemon as much as I am today if it wasn't for you, and I really respect your opinion. So, hearing how bad it was back then really scares me. I love this game so much and if it was that bad right now, I don't know what I'd do!
I guess I'd be making a lot more threads like this and choosing my words much worse than I am now... haha
Maybe I wouldn't even be involved in Pokemon as much as I am today if it wasn't for you, and I really respect your opinion. So, hearing how bad it was back then really scares me. I love this game so much and if it was that bad right now, I don't know what I'd do!
I guess I'd be making a lot more threads like this and choosing my words much worse than I am now... haha
meganium45
Active Member
I appreciate it, and I remember you from back then.
MP Birch and I co-produced that event, and it was one for the ages.
Just pointing out that we have always had problems to deal with, but the game is evolving, the volunteers are evolving, and even with the Pokeparents, they have to be developed and mentored, and it is not always a perfect quick process.
Keep observing, for the moment we take the attitude that "We are perfect, we have it nailed" we are simply fooling ourselves.
Vince
MP Birch and I co-produced that event, and it was one for the ages.
Just pointing out that we have always had problems to deal with, but the game is evolving, the volunteers are evolving, and even with the Pokeparents, they have to be developed and mentored, and it is not always a perfect quick process.
Keep observing, for the moment we take the attitude that "We are perfect, we have it nailed" we are simply fooling ourselves.
Vince
Glumanda
Rulings Compendium Translator
rokman, like Goethe said: "Think about the what, more think about the how".
Well: The "How" is absolutely wrong, but I think you know that by now, so I will more concentrate on the "What".
Topic 1: Poke-parents and persons who just go for the packs.
Now, on what we can agree is that there are people out there who are judging just "for the packs" or other incentives. From my personal experience, the group judging just for the packs is more often some players than some poke-parents. Many poke-parents understand that someone has to run that show and do it so their children have an opportunity to play. As a side effect they bring this opportunity to everyone. E.g., in our region we have a poke-parent who was playing tournaments with his kids but had no league in his hometown. So, he went and created one, searched for a location, and asked if he can hold tournaments there. What was the result? One more opportunity to play for everyone in our region. Is he an awesome super-duper great judge? Not yet, but he is thriving to be one, asking questions, attending our annual judge seminar trying to learn whatever he can from the "good" judges in our area gaining more and more experience with every tournament he judges.
I would go and say that the poke-parents are one of the backbones for the growth of this game.
Topic 2: Judges make too much mistakes / are bad
Well, I still have to see a tournament where my judging staff makes more mistakes than we give penalties for the mistakes of the players. Do judges make errors? Of course they do, but they are as human as the players. You do not have any robots there. This is not an excuse: Judges should make as less mistakes as possible, no doubt about that, but even the best judges will have their weak moments. Instead of discussing everything at length here at the Pokegym, first talk to the judge, then to the head judge, and then to the TO. And then, you can always ask the TPCi. And on a side note: You will always have weaker judges at tournaments. Why? Because becoming a good judge is a learning process. You can study as much as you want, but nothing can teach you to put your wisdom into practice better than actually doing it. Good judges do not grow on trees and you can harvest them, you have to build them up.
Topic 3: More text, no leeway
This is a topic where I would partly agree with you. First of all, many judges are already fulfilling your requirements when they carry along a rule book, or the tournaments rules, or the penalty guidelines. While the Compendium is a great resource, I will not kill a little rain forest to print it, as long I have a computer with Internet aceess. I am a disbeliever in the notion that every decision should be backed up with text. This is just taking up too much time for every itsy-bitsy issue. However, for difficult decisions or penalties this is a good way to give your ruling credibility which is a good thing in certain situations and thus done by many judges. I would sure love to see some kind of Comprehensive Rules like other games have, but I do think that there are other good resources which can be put to good use.
Head Judge should have no discretion? In this consequence it is wrong. I think it is impossible to write a document which covers every possible situation. There will always be that extraordinary situation where the Head Judge has to use his discretion. But I would agree that the amount of situations where the Head Judge must use his discretion could be lowered drastically, by having Penalty Guidelines which go more into detail, especially when it come to how to correctly correct game states. There are inconsistencies in the way people do things, this is correct, and I´m a big proponent of having less leeway in the rules, but you have to keep at least some flexibility to deal with special situations. There is a tradeoff between consistency and flexibility. Do you want the judges to act like a robot, executing "if X goto Y"-chains (100% consistency)? Or do you want the judges to assess every situation in the way how they think it should be assessed (100% flexibility)? I think you would like to have somewhat in between.
Well: The "How" is absolutely wrong, but I think you know that by now, so I will more concentrate on the "What".
Topic 1: Poke-parents and persons who just go for the packs.
Now, on what we can agree is that there are people out there who are judging just "for the packs" or other incentives. From my personal experience, the group judging just for the packs is more often some players than some poke-parents. Many poke-parents understand that someone has to run that show and do it so their children have an opportunity to play. As a side effect they bring this opportunity to everyone. E.g., in our region we have a poke-parent who was playing tournaments with his kids but had no league in his hometown. So, he went and created one, searched for a location, and asked if he can hold tournaments there. What was the result? One more opportunity to play for everyone in our region. Is he an awesome super-duper great judge? Not yet, but he is thriving to be one, asking questions, attending our annual judge seminar trying to learn whatever he can from the "good" judges in our area gaining more and more experience with every tournament he judges.
I would go and say that the poke-parents are one of the backbones for the growth of this game.
Topic 2: Judges make too much mistakes / are bad
Well, I still have to see a tournament where my judging staff makes more mistakes than we give penalties for the mistakes of the players. Do judges make errors? Of course they do, but they are as human as the players. You do not have any robots there. This is not an excuse: Judges should make as less mistakes as possible, no doubt about that, but even the best judges will have their weak moments. Instead of discussing everything at length here at the Pokegym, first talk to the judge, then to the head judge, and then to the TO. And then, you can always ask the TPCi. And on a side note: You will always have weaker judges at tournaments. Why? Because becoming a good judge is a learning process. You can study as much as you want, but nothing can teach you to put your wisdom into practice better than actually doing it. Good judges do not grow on trees and you can harvest them, you have to build them up.
Topic 3: More text, no leeway
This is a topic where I would partly agree with you. First of all, many judges are already fulfilling your requirements when they carry along a rule book, or the tournaments rules, or the penalty guidelines. While the Compendium is a great resource, I will not kill a little rain forest to print it, as long I have a computer with Internet aceess. I am a disbeliever in the notion that every decision should be backed up with text. This is just taking up too much time for every itsy-bitsy issue. However, for difficult decisions or penalties this is a good way to give your ruling credibility which is a good thing in certain situations and thus done by many judges. I would sure love to see some kind of Comprehensive Rules like other games have, but I do think that there are other good resources which can be put to good use.
Head Judge should have no discretion? In this consequence it is wrong. I think it is impossible to write a document which covers every possible situation. There will always be that extraordinary situation where the Head Judge has to use his discretion. But I would agree that the amount of situations where the Head Judge must use his discretion could be lowered drastically, by having Penalty Guidelines which go more into detail, especially when it come to how to correctly correct game states. There are inconsistencies in the way people do things, this is correct, and I´m a big proponent of having less leeway in the rules, but you have to keep at least some flexibility to deal with special situations. There is a tradeoff between consistency and flexibility. Do you want the judges to act like a robot, executing "if X goto Y"-chains (100% consistency)? Or do you want the judges to assess every situation in the way how they think it should be assessed (100% flexibility)? I think you would like to have somewhat in between.
Darkwalker
New Member
Rokman, requiring judges to pull out text (or a laptop) with the ruling/penalty in question for everything and anything is both unnecessary and extremely time consuming.
Simple questions such as, "Can I evolve my Chamander into Charmeleon and then into Charizard in the same turn without Broken Time Space in play?" should not need a judge to hold up the entire tournament possibly because a time extension had to be issued while the ruling was found and shown to the player. Judges are there to answer the questions that the players have about the game rules. Judges are also there to make sure that any penalties that players earn during game play are noted and enforced.
Will every judge know every answer to every situation? Of course not! The good ones will certainly try and find the answers to the situations they are unsure of as quickly as possible. If you, as a player, still disagree then appeal to the head judge in a polite manner.
One thing you have mentioned already is all the various P(TO)'s jumping in and "nit picking". The reason for this is simple, your initial rant was about "bad" judges. What the P(TO)'s read into that was a lack of concern over having bad judges at their tournaments. Which, in effect, is an attack on them. You continually say that you are not intending to be disrespectful and that your are poorly wording your statements, yet you continue to respond without fully thinking out how other people will take what you are saying. Doing so lessens your intended effect for those who are directly involved with running and judging tournaments.
You also seem to be of the opinion that judges are not evaluated on their performance during an event. Just because you are not privy to that, does not mean it doesn't actually happen. I for one, regularly seek input on how I did when judging an event. I want to know what I did well, and what I can work on to improve for the next time.
You also seem to completely disregard how a judge interacts with the players. Clearly explaining a ruling to a Worlds-caliber Master is one thing, explaining that same rule to a first-time-at-a-tournament 7 year old is a skill all on it's own. That also happens to be a skill that most "pokeparents" have simply from the fact that they are just that, parents.
While I can understand your concerns over a perceived poor judge, or staff of judges, at an event, you also need to look at things a bit outside your own perspective as a player before you come on the 'gym and shedding light on those issues in a public forum.
Simple questions such as, "Can I evolve my Chamander into Charmeleon and then into Charizard in the same turn without Broken Time Space in play?" should not need a judge to hold up the entire tournament possibly because a time extension had to be issued while the ruling was found and shown to the player. Judges are there to answer the questions that the players have about the game rules. Judges are also there to make sure that any penalties that players earn during game play are noted and enforced.
Will every judge know every answer to every situation? Of course not! The good ones will certainly try and find the answers to the situations they are unsure of as quickly as possible. If you, as a player, still disagree then appeal to the head judge in a polite manner.
One thing you have mentioned already is all the various P(TO)'s jumping in and "nit picking". The reason for this is simple, your initial rant was about "bad" judges. What the P(TO)'s read into that was a lack of concern over having bad judges at their tournaments. Which, in effect, is an attack on them. You continually say that you are not intending to be disrespectful and that your are poorly wording your statements, yet you continue to respond without fully thinking out how other people will take what you are saying. Doing so lessens your intended effect for those who are directly involved with running and judging tournaments.
You also seem to be of the opinion that judges are not evaluated on their performance during an event. Just because you are not privy to that, does not mean it doesn't actually happen. I for one, regularly seek input on how I did when judging an event. I want to know what I did well, and what I can work on to improve for the next time.
You also seem to completely disregard how a judge interacts with the players. Clearly explaining a ruling to a Worlds-caliber Master is one thing, explaining that same rule to a first-time-at-a-tournament 7 year old is a skill all on it's own. That also happens to be a skill that most "pokeparents" have simply from the fact that they are just that, parents.
While I can understand your concerns over a perceived poor judge, or staff of judges, at an event, you also need to look at things a bit outside your own perspective as a player before you come on the 'gym and shedding light on those issues in a public forum.
Benzo
Front Page News Editor<br>Forum Moderator
I do see a point in your observation rokman- the thing is, Volunteers are "aprentices" who are not people who can make a final call. If you have an issue, talk to the HJ/TO- in a manner like how others have said.
Take a moment and seriously look at the word "volunteer". They are in training, or just assisting in the best way they can. If they get cards for their effort- rightfully so as a sign of appretiation for WHAT they are doing, even if the reason is just to get cards. It is only fair to thank those who do put an effort into volunteering.
Show me an event that went 100% flawless without volunteers, from the people who help set up the event down to the people who cleaned up the venue afterwords.
An event will have issues, in one form or another- minor ( unoticable ) to major ( a fight in the lobby)- and without volunteers to pick up some of the "slack" or plain assisting- they are exactly that- volunteers. And people volunteer for their own personal reasons. Just like the players who play, it's for their own reasons. Two way street. Players get rewarded, so do the volunteers. And I will reward any volunteer that does assist, even if they made a hundred mistakes- just that I would make sure that next time around there is less mistakes made in the future when I am notified/informed or I see the mistakes being made.
If a parent is a volunteer judge, and they make mistakes once in a while- I am just greatful that there are parents out there who are doing SOMETHING with/for their kids.
If a judge is making to many mistakes- and no one is speaking up to the TO-HJ- then nothing can be done to encourage that volunteer to "up their skills", and history repeats itself.
Players have responsabilities too, and take it from me- As an orginizer and as a volunteer( DS events, for those who are wondering)- any and all help is appretiated, and if the people I select in volunteering for me can not keep it togather- I WORK with that person to get them to be at a level that is acceptable for ALL the PLAYERS sake. If over time that person can not keep it togather- I simply remember what they can do best at and send them in that direction. I can not change something if no one tells me that there is a need for a change. Cuz all I see is a person helping me out, and helping others out.
When all the judges retire/quite/leave-whatever- who is going to step up to take on the new open slot(s)?
Hopefully those volunteers, cuz at least they have a foot in the door and the desire to be a part of Pokemon all around.
Take a moment and seriously look at the word "volunteer". They are in training, or just assisting in the best way they can. If they get cards for their effort- rightfully so as a sign of appretiation for WHAT they are doing, even if the reason is just to get cards. It is only fair to thank those who do put an effort into volunteering.
Show me an event that went 100% flawless without volunteers, from the people who help set up the event down to the people who cleaned up the venue afterwords.
An event will have issues, in one form or another- minor ( unoticable ) to major ( a fight in the lobby)- and without volunteers to pick up some of the "slack" or plain assisting- they are exactly that- volunteers. And people volunteer for their own personal reasons. Just like the players who play, it's for their own reasons. Two way street. Players get rewarded, so do the volunteers. And I will reward any volunteer that does assist, even if they made a hundred mistakes- just that I would make sure that next time around there is less mistakes made in the future when I am notified/informed or I see the mistakes being made.
If a parent is a volunteer judge, and they make mistakes once in a while- I am just greatful that there are parents out there who are doing SOMETHING with/for their kids.
If a judge is making to many mistakes- and no one is speaking up to the TO-HJ- then nothing can be done to encourage that volunteer to "up their skills", and history repeats itself.
Players have responsabilities too, and take it from me- As an orginizer and as a volunteer( DS events, for those who are wondering)- any and all help is appretiated, and if the people I select in volunteering for me can not keep it togather- I WORK with that person to get them to be at a level that is acceptable for ALL the PLAYERS sake. If over time that person can not keep it togather- I simply remember what they can do best at and send them in that direction. I can not change something if no one tells me that there is a need for a change. Cuz all I see is a person helping me out, and helping others out.
When all the judges retire/quite/leave-whatever- who is going to step up to take on the new open slot(s)?
Hopefully those volunteers, cuz at least they have a foot in the door and the desire to be a part of Pokemon all around.
Politoed666
New Member
I must say that I do find the obvious alliance between high-rank staff and know-nothing PokéParents somewhat aggravating at times. My issue isn't so much judges who have been promoted without knowledge of the game as parents who receive preferential treatment from staff at events.
I cannot stand staff members judging a children's card game who clearly hate teenagers, but who are hearty friends with all the PokéParents. As a result, I've seen juniors who have misplayed, etc. who are the prodigy result of a deeply invested PokéParent get preferential treatment over other kids. Disgusting.
Again, though, in this area Jimmy and the other tournament organizers are pretty careful about having good judges and avoiding preferential treatment to PokéParents/their kids.
I cannot stand staff members judging a children's card game who clearly hate teenagers, but who are hearty friends with all the PokéParents. As a result, I've seen juniors who have misplayed, etc. who are the prodigy result of a deeply invested PokéParent get preferential treatment over other kids. Disgusting.
Again, though, in this area Jimmy and the other tournament organizers are pretty careful about having good judges and avoiding preferential treatment to PokéParents/their kids.
My .02
I think that the argument can be made that there bad players that result in bad judging sometimes.. There are players who think they are right no matter what and will argue with the judge even if you show them the correct ruling. There are mistakes made by both parties judges and players especially when you are new to the game or judging but you gotta start somewhere and if poke-parents did not step up who would. You cannot have games with out judges, so remember that they are doing the best they can and its a steep learning curve and mistakes will be made, however its learning from the mistake as a player and a judge that is the difference.. If a judge makes the same mistake over and over then maybe some more training needs to happen, if a player argues over and over with multiple judges at every event then maybe its time to look at yourself as a player. I feel I am very lucky to be in the North Texas area we have I feel the best staff and my local league especially has a very good poke-parent judge who drives kids to events and teaches us all...Lets remember why we play the game because of the love of it we are all kids at heart in this community
I think that the argument can be made that there bad players that result in bad judging sometimes.. There are players who think they are right no matter what and will argue with the judge even if you show them the correct ruling. There are mistakes made by both parties judges and players especially when you are new to the game or judging but you gotta start somewhere and if poke-parents did not step up who would. You cannot have games with out judges, so remember that they are doing the best they can and its a steep learning curve and mistakes will be made, however its learning from the mistake as a player and a judge that is the difference.. If a judge makes the same mistake over and over then maybe some more training needs to happen, if a player argues over and over with multiple judges at every event then maybe its time to look at yourself as a player. I feel I am very lucky to be in the North Texas area we have I feel the best staff and my local league especially has a very good poke-parent judge who drives kids to events and teaches us all...Lets remember why we play the game because of the love of it we are all kids at heart in this community
NoPoke
Active Member
WOW!
And at the end you try to redeem your post by not offending your local PTO. Do you realise that you just made a fairly standard racist polemic? My local <insert disliked group> is okay but all the others are bad.
If a player goes into a tournament with the attitude that staff are "Guilty until proven innocent" then they will have problems, but the sad part is that they probalbly won't realise that they are part of the problem and its not all someone elses fault.
I must say that I do find the obvious alliance between high-rank staff and know-nothing PokéParents somewhat aggravating at times. What obvious alliance? No seriously what obvioius alliance. That is a major accusation.
My issue isn't so much judges who have been promoted without knowledge of the game as parents who receive preferential treatment from staff at events. Without Knowledge????: you need to give examples. And "without knowledge" would be a BIG issue for me so why not you? Perhaps this is just scaremongering and you can't give examples? (If you can then don't do it here)
I cannot stand staff members judging a children's card game who clearly hate teenagers,HATE TEENAGERS?? again any event where the staff behaves that way needs to be reported not brought up as a general accusation without substantiation. but who are hearty friends with all the PokéParents. more wild accusation? As a result, I've seen juniors who have misplayed, etc. who are the prodigy result of a deeply invested PokéParent get preferential treatment over other kids. Disgusting. I've seen bias too. mostly in the very early days, it was why I switched from player to judge. If it is still occurring regularly then it is disgusting and does need to be addressed. Railing and wailing here won't help though
Again, though, in this area Jimmy and the other tournament organizers are pretty careful about having good judges and avoiding preferential treatment to PokéParents/their kids.
And at the end you try to redeem your post by not offending your local PTO. Do you realise that you just made a fairly standard racist polemic? My local <insert disliked group> is okay but all the others are bad.
If a player goes into a tournament with the attitude that staff are "Guilty until proven innocent" then they will have problems, but the sad part is that they probalbly won't realise that they are part of the problem and its not all someone elses fault.
Kayle
Active Member
Wait aren't most of the high-rank staff here PokeParents?
WHOA. MIND-BLOWING!
Sometimes I am a little annoyed by the alliance between high-rank staff an P!P, buuuuut... this is much more of a stretch.
Can we at least acknowledge the diference between a mistake by a player and a mistake by a judge? When a player makes a mistake that results in a game loss, most players are somewhat ok with that as it was THEIR mistake. When a player loses a match because a judge makes a mistake, no player is ok with that since it WASNT their mistake. So, can we really quit pointing the finger at the players? Players dont play so judges can judge but judges do judge so players can play, there is a huge difference.
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Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
While I'm not sure exactly what all I agree or disagree on in your post, I will say that the principle behind it has some merit. The issue it addresses isn't necessarily tied to Pokeparents, but can be applied to all bad judges in general. A huge issue with judging is that - due to the volunteer system - it's hard to always find the best people you could get.
How could Pokemon draw in better staff? Simple: more compensation. While this won't necessarily change the PTO's opinion as to who he/she wants, it "does" grow the applicant pool, and the more applicants the PTO hears from, the greater the odds are that a staff dream team could be organized.
Two boxes per judge; pay for the day's event; hotel comp; Pokemon Kraft Mac n' Cheese. No matter what's chosen, if TPCi makes a sufficiently good raise in compensation, and if PTOs keep an open mind, then this issue could dissolve.
How could Pokemon draw in better staff? Simple: more compensation. While this won't necessarily change the PTO's opinion as to who he/she wants, it "does" grow the applicant pool, and the more applicants the PTO hears from, the greater the odds are that a staff dream team could be organized.
Two boxes per judge; pay for the day's event; hotel comp; Pokemon Kraft Mac n' Cheese. No matter what's chosen, if TPCi makes a sufficiently good raise in compensation, and if PTOs keep an open mind, then this issue could dissolve.
NoPoke
Active Member
The very worst judging I ever experienced was from professional staff brought in to run an event many many years ago. They had zero interest outside that days pay. That isn't saying that they did not want to do a good job but that they lacked the knowledge that would allow them to do a good job. The same can be true of volunteers, and I have a deal of sympathy for any organiser who is trying to run events where the knowledgeable players don't want to help run the event. I have no sympathy for a TO that does not put in any effort to try and find good staff. I would be surprised if that occurs much in the USA amongst its PTOs. If that is not the case then TPCi needs to know.
"When a judge makes a mistake" seems to be a common theme. The central idea being that players are allowed to make mistakes but judges are not. Judges generally don't interfere with matches unless to prevent a small mistake from turning into a big one. Judge initiated interactions are typically at the Caution level or less and this does exactly what to the in progress game? I can't absolve a judge from making a card ruling error when called over by players but the responsibility does not shift 100% onto the judge once called. Its not a hot-potato and no longer a player issue once a judge is called.
It goes without saying that there will be poor judges out there. They may be poor for lots of reasons but blaming them for being poor for being pokeparents is a lot like blaming them for being poor for having blue eyes or being short or having two legs. If you experience poor judging then you must let the HJ know - preferably on the day at the event during the incident by using the appeal process. No TO wants to deal with the fallout from poor staff. At least none that expects to continue as a TO at the bigger events.
"When a judge makes a mistake" seems to be a common theme. The central idea being that players are allowed to make mistakes but judges are not. Judges generally don't interfere with matches unless to prevent a small mistake from turning into a big one. Judge initiated interactions are typically at the Caution level or less and this does exactly what to the in progress game? I can't absolve a judge from making a card ruling error when called over by players but the responsibility does not shift 100% onto the judge once called. Its not a hot-potato and no longer a player issue once a judge is called.
It goes without saying that there will be poor judges out there. They may be poor for lots of reasons but blaming them for being poor for being pokeparents is a lot like blaming them for being poor for having blue eyes or being short or having two legs. If you experience poor judging then you must let the HJ know - preferably on the day at the event during the incident by using the appeal process. No TO wants to deal with the fallout from poor staff. At least none that expects to continue as a TO at the bigger events.
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