"Declumping" a Deck

[TheRolesWePlay]

@djjoe227
Let me rise a quick question to you, what's the difference between a few seconds one player spends in their deck declumping their deck, and the few seconds you use to formulate your next action? From my view point there isn't a difference. And when ever I've seen a player declump it happens once in that game, and I rarely see them declump in rematches, it isn't a recurring problem throughout the game.

Do you know someone like that? If so bring it up with them, and explain to them how to improve their shuffling.

 

[Prof Clay]

you are the minority, and most players are fine with this,

I love quotes like this that make such sweeping assumptions with no valid support....

 

[Secretsmeargle]

@TheRolesWePlay

The difference is, declumping your deck adds no value, unlike thinking about what actions to do next. Declumping just wastes time if it is followed by a proper shuffle.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I love quotes like this that make such sweeping assumptions with no valid support...

And I love it when people ignore context :lol:
Also it's true, many average players (who aren't on gym mind you) don't tend to mind from my experience, and that effectively places you into the minority, by it's very definition.

@SecretSmeargle:
And five seconds is five seconds. It may not have a worth to you, but it has a worth to others. Also we are talking about the same species here right?

 

[Ness]

what's the difference between a few seconds one player spends in their deck declumping their deck, and the few seconds you use to formulate your next action?

One of them involves stacking your deck.

Also it's true, many average players don't tend to mind from my experience, and that effectively places you into the minority, by it's very definition.

That's because those novice players don't even realize what you're doing.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

One of them involves stacking your deck.

That's because those novice players don't even realize what you're doing.

By your definition maybe. And we've already established that I don't consider it cheating and I do. So you could at least try to provide me with another reason, or something else to dissuade my opinion.

Plus we're all players of this game, and your opinion doesn't matter anymore than those 'novices'

 

[Prof Clay]

And I love it when people ignore context :lol:
Also it's true, many average players (who aren't on gym mind you) don't tend to mind from my experience, and that effectively places you into the minority, by it's very definition.

@SecretSmeargle:
And five seconds is five seconds. It may not have a worth to you, but it has a worth to others. Also we are talking about the same species here right?

I've read everything you have said and put full consideration into my thought. You don't speak for the majority nor do you know what they truly think about this subject.

is this a major problem... no....but it can be annoying and as I said, rather pointless in its execution, but whatever makes a player feel less worry about his play...play on!

 

[DJGigabyte]

Also it's true, many average players (who aren't on gym mind you) don't tend to mind from my experience

I can believe that many average player (as well as many bad players) don't care about this. But to the good players it can be an issue.

Personally, I wouldn't ask someone to stop declumping (if they take a few seconds about it and don't push it) but I will make sure their deck is fully randomised afterwards. If not, I'm shuffling it.

And people shouldn't compare declumping to bringing your lucky plush to a tournament. Unless your lucky plush occasionally puts good cards on the top of your deck.

 

[Ness]

Plus we're all players of this game, and your opinion doesn't matter anymore than those 'novices'

My opinion doesn't matter more because most novice players don't even have an opinion. They don't even understand what you're doing when you are "declumping" your deck. They are simply trying to enjoy a game of Pokemon!

Even if they were okay with you stacking your deck, would that make it right? You needed to stop posting about 10 posts ago.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

@Prof Clay
You're right I don't speak for the majority, in fact I find my self in the minority myself quite often, but my claim comes from my experience and my previous observations, and what I've said matches up with those. I speak for myself and my own experiences, and my own thoughts.

@DJGigabyte
So 'good players' should deem how the 'average players' should behave with their deck conduct?

Also your willing to complain about it, but not bring it up to the players who do it, and try to prevent to prevent it for the future. Telling and informing them and the poor shuffling could be very useful to them.

Also really? Your bringing up the metaphor again? That wasn't even meant to be taken seriously.

My opinion doesn't matter more because most novice players don't even have an opinion. They don't even understand what you're doing when you are "declumping" your deck. They are simply trying to enjoy a game of Pokemon!

Even if they were okay with you stacking your deck, would that make it right? You needed to stop posting about 10 posts ago.

They don't have an opinion? What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure they care or else they wouldn't be playing the game. And if you think they don't understand then explain it to them. It's a fairly simple suggestion. You think what they're doing is bad, then tell them, and let them be the judge of that.

 

[mudkipmaster]

Not in agreement with this post, Jason.

I'm not aware of anything in the rules that prevents people from rearranging the order of their deck while using Collector or another search card, as long as they shuffle properly. If I find four energy in a row or something, I usually do split them up. If someone asked me what I was doing, I would probably say, "rearranging the order of my deck. Problem?" I don't think it falls into the category of stalling as long as it isn't excessive. It takes, like, ten seconds, tops.

If one rearranges their deck in a manner like "Pokémon, Energy, Supporter, Trainer," that should be brought to a judge's attention, especially if they fail to shuffle properly afterwards. Otherwise, I see no violation of the rules or of good sportsmanship.

Sadly, I have run out of thanks. okeball:

 

[Mekkah]

So 'good players' should deem how the 'average players' should behave with their deck conduct?

No. It's the rules that are deeming how to behave with regard to deck conduct. There is (or should be) no real tie to a player's skill level in this issue: nobody likes having to shuffle their opponent's deck, or leaving themselves open for cheating. It's just that for the good players, there's often more on the line than for more casual players who might not know what "declumping" your deck actually accomplishes.

I'd also appreciate it if people stopped posting "just shuffle your opponent's deck for them if you're uncomfortable with it". I shouldn't have to do that as your opponent. Randomizing your deck is your job.

 

[djjoe227]

@djjoe227
Let me rise a quick question to you, what's the difference between a few seconds one player spends in their deck declumping their deck, and the few seconds you use to formulate your next action? From my view point there isn't a difference. And when ever I've seen a player declump it happens once in that game, and I rarely see them declump in rematches, it isn't a recurring problem throughout the game.

Do you know someone like that? If so bring it up them, and explain to them how to improve their shuffling.

Declumping the deck: At the end of it, in essence, you have accomplished NOTHING. If anything is accomplished, then you have successfully stacked the deck and manipulated the deck to improve your situation.

Formulating an action: At the end of it, in essence, thought has occurred and your action is thought-out. You've accomplished planning. If anything is accomplished, you'll show it through proper gameplay.

The difference is that one is against the rules (Stacking the deck) while the other is the essence of the game itself (Playing the game).

Also, there is no way to "improve" shuffling, only to do it more.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

No. It's the rules that are deeming how to behave with regard to deck conduct. There is (or should be) no real tie to a player's skill level in this issue: nobody likes having to shuffle their opponent's deck, or leaving themselves open for cheating. It's just that for the good players, there's often more on the line than for more casual players who might not know what "declumping" your deck actually accomplishes.

I'd also appreciate it if people stopped posting "just shuffle your opponent's deck for them if you're uncomfortable with it". I shouldn't have to do that as your opponent. Randomizing your deck is your job.

There shouldn't be, but there is. Players have different ways of managing their decks, and the way they do so changes as the become experienced, for instance most players overlay their prizes, when basic playmats show to spread them out and not to have them touch, and the same goes for shuffling.

Furthermore the threat of cheating will never go away, and thus the need to shuffle/cut the opponent's deck will always be a good idea. I would hope that even if declumping were banned people wouldn't stop shuffling/cutting

EDIT:

Declumping the deck: At the end of it, in essence, you have accomplished NOTHING. If anything is accomplished, then you have successfully stacked the deck and manipulated the deck to improve your situation.

Formulating an action: At the end of it, in essence, thought has occurred and your action is thought-out. You've accomplished planning. If anything is accomplished, you'll show it through proper gameplay.

The difference is that one is against the rules (Stacking the deck) while the other is the essence of the game itself (Playing the game).

Also, there is no way to "improve" shuffling, only to do it more.

Yet they both consume time, and just because you and I (yes I don't think so too) think declumping isn't useful in the long run, doesn't mean there aren't people who do think it is useful. And it isn't against the rules, frowned upon yes, illegal no.

Also shuffling strategy does change, I've seen little kids spray cards all over before, that's because they aren't used to it yet, and haven't nailed it down yet. Over time however players get better, and more efficient.

 

[Ness]

Furthermore the threat of cheating will never go away, and thus the need to shuffle/cut the opponent's deck will always be a good idea.

I just laugh at this. You talk about shuffling our opponent's deck being necessary to prevent cheating. Yet, rearranging your cards in a desired pattern isn't cheating? So...how could someone cheat with their deck? Explain to me a hypothetical situation where Player A attempts to do something to his deck that you consider cheating, but is thwarted by Player B shuffling his deck.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

I just laugh at this. You talk about shuffling our opponent's deck being necessary to prevent cheating. Yet, rearranging your cards in a desired pattern isn't cheating? So...how could someone cheat with their deck? Explain to me a hypothetical situation where Player A attempts to do something to his deck that you consider cheating, but is thwarted by Player B shuffling his deck.

He might be trolling, Jason. Don't get worked up, or else he wins

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I just laugh at this. You talk about shuffling our opponent's deck being necessary to prevent cheating. Yet, rearranging your cards in a desired pattern isn't cheating? So...how could someone cheat with their deck? Explain to me a hypothetical situation where Player A attempts to do something to his deck that you consider cheating, but is thwarted by Player B shuffling his deck.

Is anyone else as excited as I am to see the nonsense Roles comes up with for this one?

First of all shuffling your opponent's deck is important, because cheating can be a subtle matter. Second we've established that I don't think declumping is cheating, so stop bringing it up expecting a different result. Anyway onto the main part.

You have to be kidding. There's a few things wrong with this. One of course I don't know any new cheating techniques I don't spend my time thinking up ways to abuse P!P events, since I enjoy honest games. Second I consider cheating what Pokemon considers cheating (which declumping isn't listed under). Third even if I did I wouldn't tell you because, 1.) If I were a cheater and revealed it it would risk me getting caught and 2.) I would risk other players abusing it while Judging staff sought a way to rectify the problem.

Lastly I'm not trolling, it's called I disagree with you. I miss Otaku who actually addressed and tried to refute my arguments.

 

[Politoed666]

If someone was uncomfortable with "declumping," I probably wouldn't make a big deal of it. I'd just spend more time shuffling my deck, which would have the same effect. I saw a post earlier, though, that said something along the lines of: "shuffling after declumping has the same chance of clumping your cards again than just shuffling without declumping." That is absolutely not the case.

I simply don't see it as stacking your deck. If you still sufficiently randomize after "declumping," your deck is sufficiently randomized. Could the cards reclump? Yeah. Probably not, though. All it does is give you the chance to randomize as best as possible. There's a reason people six-pile "shuffle" (which is really just declumping) before "regular" shuffling; it's because their deck is organized and they want to de-organize (declump?) it before shuffling, so the end result is as random as possible and no clumps from the initial organization remain.

TLDR: Declumping is just a faster way of 6PSing in the middle of the game... it ensures that none of the initial clumps remain and that the proceeding shuffle is as random as possible.

 

[Ness]

There is no such thing as a "mid-game clump" in your deck. These "clumps" are a man-made perception. They stem from the fact that our brains notice patterns. Those 3 Junk Arm cards all next to each other sure do catch our attention, but that doesn't mean it is the result of some unrandom force.

I miss Otaku who actually addressed and tried to refute my arguments.

successfully disproved your arguments*

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

If he successfully refuted all of my argument I wouldn't be here now, and if they were so good why don't you try refuting them yourself, instead of saying that 'declumping is cheating' over and over? A sentiment I've already explained I don't agree with.