"Declumping" a Deck

[PokePop]

It isn't cheating.

It isn't against the rules.

And the whole reason it isn't against the rules is because you deliberately randomize your deck afterwards. It's a very legitimate argument.

Did you read my earlier post?

The reason it is not against the rules is that it is unenforceable.
Randomizing your deck afterward merely makes it tolerable.
This does not make it a good thing.

 

[vaporeon]

Someone may have mentioned this, but the whole argument of "well my opponent can just shuffle my deck if they don't like my declumping" is the biggest load of bull in the thread. Its literally insulting. Effectively what you're saying is that its OK to cheat because your opponent has the option to stop you from doing so.

Its your opponent's option, but not his or her responsibility to stop you from cheating. Its your obligation not to cheat.

If you are altering your deck in any way that isn't explicitly stated on a card then you are cheating. That's it. End of sentence. If you move "clumped" cards around, you aren't "randomizing" your deck, you're unrandomizing it.

Random does not mean "evenly spaced." Randomization is a messy process! It means sometimes you have god draws and sometimes you have dead draws. It doesn't mean that you get consistent draws every single game. If you're moving cards around to try and give yourself better draws, that means your deck is no longer random.

Jason is being pretty forgiving with his "wasting time" argument. Basically if you declump your deck you are doing so to make your deck unrandom. This is simply his way of countering the argument of "well I shuffle afterward!" to those who declump. If you truly do make your deck random afterward, there was no point to declumping. But lets be serious: nobody truly randomizes their deck in a mid-game shuffle. It just doesn't happen. So to say that you're truly randomizing your deck with a mid-game shuffle after de-clumping you're either delusional (in cheater-denial) or simply straight up cheating.

So to get back to my original point, no, I'm not going to "just shuffle your deck if I don't like your declumping." You need to stop cheating. Just stop declumping. Stop. Now.

I think net decking is cheating but many others don't. I think it changes the flow of the tournament that people don't build their own deck, but other don't. Please explain how it's cheating. Just because playing Pokemon Collecter does not say declump your deck, it does not mean you can't.

 

[Moss Factor]

It isn't cheating.

It isn't against the rules.

And the whole reason it isn't against the rules is because you deliberately randomize your deck afterwards. It's a very legitimate argument.

Someone has a bad case of cheater-denial! If you truly randomize your deck afterward then why declump in the first place? Easy answer: because your intent is to not "deliberately randomize your deck afterwards." Nobody legitimately randomizes their deck during a mid-game shuffle. You are attempting to manipulate your deck by de-clumping. That is cheating bro.

Dude you have a pretty bad case of cheater-denial. Its OK man, we're not here to judge. I'll take off the white wig! Just stop doing it going forward and I'll wipe the slate clean! I won't even make you forfeit your T32 Nats placing a la Reggie Bush. You don't even have to apologize or have a Tiger Woods-style press conference. Just stop cheating.

TY!

---------- Post added 11/02/2011 at 10:17 PM ----------

I think net decking is cheating but many others don't. I think it changes the flow of the tournament that people don't build their own deck, but other don't. Please explain how it's cheating. Just because playing Pokemon Collecter does not say declump your deck, it does not mean you can't.

The cards say "shuffle your deck afterwards." The point of shuffling is to randomize your deck. You are trying to make your deck unrandom by declumping. Therefore, you are not adhering to the instructions on the card and are cheating. Just because its difficult to enforce doesn't mean it isn't cheating, cheater.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Someone may have mentioned this, but the whole argument of "well my opponent can just shuffle my deck if they don't like my declumping" is the biggest load of bull in the thread. Its literally insulting. Effectively what you're saying is that its OK to cheat because your opponent has the option to stop you from doing so.

Its your opponent's option, but not his or her responsibility to stop you from cheating. Its your obligation not to cheat.

The only problem is...that your wrong.

A player may have the obligation not to cheat, but the opponent has the responsibility to keep on the player, their opponent, that's why both players receive a form of penalty if a player doesn't lay out their prizes, you should be paying attention, and you should take precautions such as shuffling/cutting your opponent's deck, double checking their damage, keeping track of their plays, etc. to prevent your opponent from messing up and/or cheating, or else you risk losing the game.

Also I'm in college, and I don't need you trying to demean my arguments by implying I'm a little kid.

And also again, a lot human action doesn't make sense, just as a side note.

 

[vaporeon]

And I can fairly say that anyone who netdecks is cheating because I don't do it. Do you see the problem there. The ONLY time people declump is during a search, like you said and those search cards say "shuffle your deck afterwards" which means you can't cheat, THEN your opponents gets to shuffle. You can't cheat. There is not need to enforce anything.

The biggest cheaters are the ones who show up to tournaments with netdecks because of their own insecurities of their own player skill a feel like they must cheat the player who worked hours on their deck by beating them with a deck they did not make.

 

[ShadowCard]

The truth is, the real problem with it is people are stacking their decks. The people who are doing this are rarely shuffling sufficiently after they do it.

Here, this is what this thread is about. The whole "declumping" as an issue is silliness. The issue is really a reflection of the people who play in your area.

Solution: the judges in your area need to enforce the existing sporting conduct and SotG rules, not make up new rules about declumping and calling it stacking.

If, when I shuffle your deck, can I take individual cards and put them in specific places in your deck?

Although not analogous because the declump happens during a search and not a shuffle, I get to shuffle after you put the cards in specific places, right? :wink:

 

[Ness]

Oh my god, make him change that avatar! WHY is it blinking? That's not even what a Vaporeon's eyes look like!

 

[mudkipmaster]

Oh my god, make him change that avatar! WHY is it blinking? That's not even what a Vaporeon's eyes look like!

I don't feel that any one of our avatars are a part of this discussion.

 

[Ness]

Here, this is what this thread is about. The whole "declumping" as an issue is silliness. The issue is really a reflection of the people who play in your area.

I play with the some of the friendliest, sportsmanlike and skilled players in the game in both Florida & Illinois. This post isn't directed at anyone in my area, but players all across the world who rearrange their deck during search and then produce a weak shuffle. I've played Pokémon in 18 states and 2 countries for 12 years. Believe me, this goes on everywhere.

 

[Otaku]

And I can fairly say that anyone who netdecks is cheating because I don't do it. Do you see the problem there. The ONLY time people declump is during a search, like you said and those search cards say "shuffle your deck afterwards" which means you can't cheat, THEN your opponents gets to shuffle. You can't cheat. There is not need to enforce anything.

The biggest cheaters are the ones who show up to tournaments with netdecks because of their own insecurities of their own player skill a feel like they must cheat the player who worked hours on their deck by beating them with a deck they did not make.

You do not support your claim with logic. On this very thread, we have someone pointing out that the only reason declumping is legal is because they felt it was unenforceable to make it illegal. Even before that, it was pointed out that despite efforts to prevent it from affecting randomization, it would affect randomization or it was utterly pointless.

Shuffling your deck is not declumping you deck, therefore claiming that is why it cannot be cheating does not suffice. You then compare this to a personal belief that it is wrong to netdeck. If someone privy to the rules making process reveals that TPC wants Netdecking to be illegal but feel it is unenforceable, then we will have comparable situations.

Building your own deck, like actually owning cards, is technically optional. However truly netdecking will hurt a player in the long run, as the best decks are tailored to that player's skill. I would not consider netdecking to be a good thing, but I'll be honest, your argument is much more persuasive for considering net-decking to be another undesirable "should be against the rules but is impossible to enforce" practice than making me think declumping is not such a thing. :lol:

If it helps, unlike Ness I find your avatar entertaining.:thumb:

 

[Ness]

You do not support your claim with logic. On this very thread, we have someone pointing out that the only reason declumping is legal is because they felt it was unenforceable to make it illegal.

Yeah, someone, who just happens to be one of the most respected, unbiased and knowledgeable veteran judges of the Pokemon TCG, nbd.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Quit stacking your deck and move on with your life.

If it helps, unlike Ness I find your avatar entertaining.:thumb:

I respectfully disagree. However, I am biased because his posts irk me. vaporeon's avatar will be discussed in further detail tomorrow in a separate thread.

 

[Moss Factor]

The only problem is...that your wrong.

A player may have the obligation not to cheat, but the opponent has the responsibility to keep on the player, their opponent, that's why both players receive a form of penalty if a player doesn't lay out their prizes, you should be paying attention, and you should take precautions such as shuffling/cutting your opponent's deck, double checking their damage, keeping track of their plays, etc. to prevent your opponent from messing up and/or cheating, or else you risk losing the game.

Also I'm in college, and I don't need you trying to demean my arguments by implying I'm a little kid.

And also again, a lot human action doesn't make sense, just as a side note.

You have a responsibility to make sure public game state issues are being maintained. The idea behind this is that you don't allow your opponent to carelessly make a fundamental game state error so that you can later call them on it and give them the game loss. You don't gain some advantage by not putting your prizes out; you just immediately and forever lose the game. The intent of the rule is to stop your opponent from stepping into an auto-loss trap so that you can quickly call a judge whenever they make the first shuffle or game-state altering move.

There is no rule that says "you can cheat unless your opponent catches you because it is their responsibility to stop you from being a dirty, dirty cheater."

 

[BlisseyRocks]

Comparing his double checking his moves to "deck de-clumping" is so insane I don't really know where to begin. Do you really want to go there?



Maybe if you post more YouTube videos we can work something out......

Yeah, i do want to go there. Its a 1-2 second thing, if you're complaining about someone taking two seconds off the clock to do that, someone could just as easily pretend they are thinking during the deck search and kill off the same amount of time. So time definitley is not the issue.

 

[ShadowCard]

I play with the some of the friendliest, sportsmanlike and skilled players in the game in both Florida & Illinois. This post isn't directed at anyone in my area, but players all across the world who rearrange their deck during search and then produce a weak shuffle. I've played Pokémon in 18 states and 2 countries for 12 years. Believe me, this goes on everywhere.

Since you haven't played everywhere, you can only speak for the places in which you have played or play in frequently enough to speak over those who do play in those areas. If this is a problem, it is a problem in your area.

Or you are just bored and looking for a cause.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

You have a responsibility to make sure public game state issues are being maintained. The idea behind this is that you don't allow your opponent to carelessly make a fundamental game state error so that you can later call them on it and give them the game loss. You don't gain some advantage by not putting your prizes out; you just immediately and forever lose the game. The intent of the rule is to stop your opponent from stepping into an auto-loss trap so that you can quickly call a judge whenever they make the first shuffle or game-state altering move.

There is no rule that says "you can cheat unless your opponent catches you because it is their responsibility to stop you from being a dirty, dirty cheater."

I never said that your opponent can cheat if you don't pay attention, but as you said it is the players responsibility to keep an eye out for game state errors, which cheating can fall under. It is your responsibility to alert a judge at the first hint of cheating.

If you really want me to spell it out for you, a cheater won't get caught unless someone manages to point it out to a judge, then and only then will judges be able to do something.

 

[mattalvis]

I never said that your opponent can cheat if you don't pay attention, but as you said it is the players responsibility to keep an eye out for game state errors, which cheating can fall under. It is your responsibility to alert a judge at the first hint of cheating.

If you really want me to spell it out for you, a cheater won't get caught unless someone manages to point it out to a judge, then and only then will judges be able to do something.

Here's what needs to happen:

1. There needs to be a rule that you cannot do this.
2. Tournament organizers need to inform players that you cannot do this at the beginning of tournaments, at least for the first season of the rule's implementation.
3. If your opponent catches you doing it, then he/she should call a judge over and inform them what you are doing.
4. You are given a warning.
5. If it happens again in the same tournament, you receive a game loss.

How is this hard to enforce?

 

[vaporeon]

You do not support your claim with logic. On this very thread, we have someone pointing out that the only reason declumping is legal is because they felt it was unenforceable to make it illegal. Even before that, it was pointed out that despite efforts to prevent it from affecting randomization, it would affect randomization or it was utterly pointless.

Shuffling your deck is not declumping you deck, therefore claiming that is why it cannot be cheating does not suffice. You then compare this to a personal belief that it is wrong to netdeck. If someone privy to the rules making process reveals that TPC wants Netdecking to be illegal but feel it is unenforceable, then we will have comparable situations.

Building your own deck, like actually owning cards, is technically optional. However truly netdecking will hurt a player in the long run, as the best decks are tailored to that player's skill. I would not consider netdecking to be a good thing, but I'll be honest, your argument is much more persuasive for considering net-decking to be another undesirable "should be against the rules but is impossible to enforce" practice than making me think declumping is not such a thing. :lol:

If it helps, unlike Ness I find your avatar entertaining.:thumb:

That's what I'm going for. Netdecking, like declumping can't be controlled. I only made the post to show that people don't like being called cheaters for what they do, when it's not against the rules. All this post shows is that world class players like to rule shark.

And I do like my avatar.

 

[Prof Clay]

If you really want me to spell it out for you, a cheater won't get caught unless someone manages to point it out to a judge, then and only then will judges be able to do something.

Um...I can catch cheaters without being shown...and so can most of the other judges I know. Now there are different scenarios which I can't, but it is possible :thumb:

 

[Ness]

Netdecking is not cheating. Nowhere in any tournament guideline or rulebook does it read can't play the same deck as someone else. Not saying I like it (I honestly despise it), but in no way, shape or form is it cheating...

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Um...I can catch cheaters without being shown...and so can most of the other judges I know. Now there are different scenarios which I can't, but it is possible :thumb:

Sorry, shouldn't have made a blanket statement like that. But my point is that some cheating is hard to catch without a players intervention, which is why a player should always be aware.