Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

"Declumping" a Deck

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I never said that your opponent can cheat if you don't pay attention, but as you said it is the players responsibility to keep an eye out for game state errors, which cheating can fall under. It is your responsibility to alert a judge at the first hint of cheating.

If you really want me to spell it out for you, a cheater won't get caught unless someone manages to point it out to a judge, then and only then will judges be able to do something.

You're missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say. I fully understand that nobody is going to say, "hey man, I know you didn't see it, but I deliberately and methodically cheated without you noticing, and now I will accordingly report myself to the judge so that I may face the relevant consequences."

I get it man. If you want to make sure someone isn't cheating, you have to monitor them. That goes without saying. But some people are arguing that its OK to de-clump your deck because the opponent always has the option to shuffle afterward. What I'm saying is that I shouldn't have to. People should just stop cheating. Just because I can correct their cheating and undo its effects by thoroughly randomizing their clearly unrandom mid-game shuffled after de-clumping cheater deck, I shouldn't have to.

Just stop cheating guys. Jason and I already have cuts on our fingers from shuffling our own decks, we don't need to worry about your un-random, de-clumped, cheat-stacked deck too. Just stop de-clumping. STOP!
 
Netdecking is not cheating. Nowhere in any tournament guideline or rulebook does it read can't play the same deck as someone else. Not saying I like it (I honestly despise it), but in no way, shape or form is it cheating...

How is it not, player creative skill should be put to the test, not the one who can bring a deck with a proven win record. That to me is cheating and is the prime definition of changing a tournament.

Just like declumping, there is no rule against it. Declump does not change the course of a game or tournament.
 
You're missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say. I fully understand that nobody is going to say, "hey man, I know you didn't see it, but I deliberately and methodically cheated without you noticing, and now I will accordingly report myself to the judge so that I may face the relevant consequences."

I get it man. If you want to make sure someone isn't cheating, you have to monitor them. That goes without saying. But some people are arguing that its OK to de-clump your deck because the opponent always has the option to shuffle afterward. What I'm saying is that I shouldn't have to. People should just stop cheating. Just because I can correct their cheating and undo its effects by thoroughly randomizing their clearly unrandom mid-game shuffled after de-clumping cheater deck, I shouldn't have to.

Just stop cheating guys. Jason and I already have cuts on our fingers from shuffling our own decks, we don't need to worry about your un-random, de-clumped, cheat-stacked deck too. Just stop de-clumping. STOP!

You have cuts on your hand from shuffling? I just won't ask,

The thing is that is that a lot of players don't do it intentionally, or intend to cheat, they don't view that way, because they've never thought of it that way, if you bring it up to a player and educate them on the matter, then you they might stop. Worst case scenario the get upset and walk off. If your that upset then try talking it out, instead of calling people cheaters, because that'll just get them angry, and nothing will be solved.
 
How is it not? Because it isn't! You guys are cracking me up.

cheat (verb)
to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>

There are no rules against netdecking! You know what there are rules against? Stacking your deck!
 
Yeah, someone, who just happens to be one of the most respected, unbiased and knowledgeable veteran judges of the Pokemon TCG, nbd.



Quit stacking your deck and move on with your life.



I respectfully disagree. However, I am biased because his posts irk me. vaporeon's avatar will be discussed in further detail tomorrow in a separate thread.

Don't lose your cool now. Keep arguments logical and sentiments far from emotion.

***​

Okay, so my two cents on this subject. For the most part, I mostly agree with Ness' initial argument. At the end of the day, there's really no legitimate argument to make claim for declumping your deck in any reasonable way. Why? Well, for a few reasons.

In a nutshell, declumping your deck is a modification of the inherent randomness from previous shuffles. Some players are better or worse shufflers than others, and that's a fact, yes, but declumping is the explicit movement of particular, precise cards to mitigate, in theory, 'poor shuffling'. The logic, of course, is that through the declumping of those cards you've mitigated what was either poor chance or poor shuffling. On either side, it's not a very good argument.

Regarding chanced clumps but good shuffling, you've essentially modified the outcome of the originally intended list setup. Shuffling or not, you've changed the fortunes with prior information. How, you may say? Because you've given yourself the game option to change the nature of the setup. Allow me to demonstrate.

Let's say I play Pokemon Collector, and find all my Candies together. Presuming that I had shuffled properly, this would be the unfortunate luck of the draw, and realistically in a game I should be playing a shuffle card or a draw card to mitigate the diminished return of my per-turn draw. The 'minimising dead draw' argument is not an effective argument because 'dead draws' are an inherent part of the game: setup is determined, but mitigated, through luck. That's an unfortunate fact.

Therefore, it relies on the competency of the individual player to minimise that luck factor to the best of his ability. This sounds callous and woefully naive, but for a player who is stuck in a dead-draw position should have to adapt, because at the end of the day, his opponent is at equal chance of getting hit by the same dead draw scenario.

So, with all my candies together, what happens if I choose to declump? Well, in a nutshell, I've altered the probability of the deck by making it naturally more favourable. How so? There are two viable scenarios: I declump and don't shuffle, which makes it by default in my favour, or I declump and it gets shuffled (either by myself or the opponent), and it makes it in my favour by the distribution of luck versus the minimum utility. In other words, the bad situation is that I'm clumped - even if the opponent shuffles, it changes the distribution by default, meaning that the chances of the elimination of the dead draw is gone.

So, what does this mean? It means that even if my opponent shuffles my deck afterwards (or I do it), I've benefited because the chances of that initial dead-draw is no longer 100 percent. In this case, we're making an action under utility asymmetry: I've benefitted from the elimination of a possibly damaging draw at the expense of my opponent with no benefit to them. This, in essence, moves a naturally determined deck structure (4 clumped Candies) into a position that favours me (very good chance of no more 4 clumped Candies) without any sign of inherent competency or deserved skill on my part.

In other words, it takes a game of position based on relative gains - meaning your benefit becomes their loss - from an action that had nothing to do with the skill, decklist consistency, play strength or general ability of either players into account.

But what about poor shufflers? Should they get to declump? My argument, well, is no. You see, because there's no way to legitimately figure out if someone is a poor shuffler by nature and not by design, you're allowing for collective moral failure. In other words, stating that poor shufflers should get to declump will lead to the possibility of someone saying that they're naturally a 'bad shuffler' so they can say they get to declump: it puts the exchange at a status where the lowest common denominator is that the incentive to cheat becomes very, very high. And players may take advantage of that.

But how can they get a good randomization? Well, have the other player shuffle it, then. If the other player agrees to shuffle it, then at the least both players have agreed that the probability of whatever comes is the agreed upon result of sheer luck, and not of possible stacking. Likewise, if the other player decides not to shuffle it, then he's taken the risk associated with his opponent declumping. Does either scenario, therefore, mean that declumping is okay? No, not at all - whether you choose to shuffle or whether you choose not to, declumping is not okay because of two reasons:

A) Shuffling isn't exactly a difficult thing, and the argument of 'poor shuffling' is hardly a reasonable excuse for any sort of possible stacking - therefore, it is your responsibility as the player to shuffle properly
B) Declumping, as stated, provides no benefit to the opposite player, making it purely gains to the other player, and considering that this is a status without factoring in competency, decklist construction, etc., it's not fair just because someone is 'bad at shuffling'

The time argument isn't as compelling, which is why I 'mostly'. The act of declumping takes up just as much time as someone thinking through what they want from their deck. Time, in this case, can easily be measured and mitigated, unlike the intent and shuffling skill.

Likewise, time is not a massive loss in terms of relative gains - if the opponent shaved off two or three seconds because they're not sure what to get, it's not going to affect me. Reasonably, it should give me more time to figure out a viable counter plan to his setup / gameplan, so there's a benefit for me there.

Now, I'm not sure if it's that big of a thing to warrant such furor. Perhaps if someone does it multiple times in a game, then yeah, I'll get worried. If the opponent does it once, and it's obvious they're a bit worried, I'll let it slide, because at the end of the day, it statistically won't break the bank.

But on a whole? I'm not in favour of declumping, mainly because it has far too many costs and little benefits.
 
I would hope not. When I give you my deck to shuffle, I expect you to shuffle but if you cut my deck, you can cut in any way you like.

Your logic is so flawed and without reasoning. And you can only cut with 2 piles, if you "cut any way you like" it turns into a shuffle.

And I can fairly say that anyone who netdecks is cheating because I don't do it. Do you see the problem there. The ONLY time people declump is during a search, like you said and those search cards say "shuffle your deck afterwards" which means you can't cheat, THEN your opponents gets to shuffle. You can't cheat. There is not need to enforce anything.

The biggest cheaters are the ones who show up to tournaments with netdecks because of their own insecurities of their own player skill a feel like they must cheat the player who worked hours on their deck by beating them with a deck they did not make.

Netdecking is cheating, and whereever you're getting this insane idea, you're wrong and foolish. As for the only time people declump is during a search, when else would they exactly? It's clearly obvious, but then saying shuffle your deck afterwards nullifies it shouldn't matter. You can't cheat then say oh i'm shuffling after i'm done so it doesn't matter. No. You can't cheat. Any time. I'm sorry you think people are "netdecking" but what it's doing in this arguement is beyond me and has nothing to do with declumping.

Sorry, shouldn't have made a blanket statement like that. But my point is that some cheating is hard to catch without a players intervention, which is why a player should always be aware.

Clearly you've never judged a tournament before.
 
I'm still just astounded that there could possibly be 8 pages of discussion regarding this. How can someone call themselves an intelligent, reasonable person capable of common sense and actually defend declumping their deck?
 
Could we please avoid any form of attacking each other? This is a discussion afterall, which means everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own.
 
The tournament is a test and the netdeck is the answer key. If I can take the time to make a deck to win with, so can everyone else. So because I don't it, I can call it cheating. That's not fair.

Stacking is cheating because you're doing it with the intent of cheating. Declumping is not cheating because all you're doing is just moving cards around so you can make the deck more random when you shuffle. There is nothing wrong with movie cards around the deck during a search.
 
The tournament is a test and the netdeck is the answer key. If I can take the time to make a deck to win with, so can everyone else. So because I don't it, I can call it cheating. That's not fair.

Stacking is cheating because you're doing it with the intent of cheating. Declumping is not cheating because all you're doing is just moving cards around so you can make the deck more random when you shuffle. There is nothing wrong with movie cards around the deck during a search.

I will NOT take the bait. You will NOT trick me into thinking you actually believe this! You will NOT get me!
 
The tournament is a test and the netdeck is the answer key. If I can take the time to make a deck to win with, so can everyone else. So because I don't it, I can call it cheating. That's not fair.

Stacking is cheating because you're doing it with the intent of cheating. Declumping is not cheating because all you're doing is just moving cards around so you can make the deck more random when you shuffle. There is nothing wrong with movie cards around the deck during a search.

Cmon bud, i'm with you but the way you describe it IS cheating. Bettering the fact that your random shuffle isnt so random IS CHEATING. The thing is, shuffling decently will make it random.
 
Did you read my earlier post?

The reason it is not against the rules is that it is unenforceable.
Randomizing your deck afterward merely makes it tolerable.
This does not make it a good thing.

All I really saw of that was, "it is not against the rules." I think the reason why it's against the rules is irrelevant at this point. This discussion seems to have disintegrated to one of whether or not it qualifies as "cheating." By your own testimony, it doesn't. Bad sportsmanship or whatever =/= cheating. I'm not arguing as to whether it's a "good thing." I'm neutral; I just don't see the huge issue with it. It no more interferes with randomization than pile shuffling a sorted deck before shuffling at the beginning, which is perfectly legal and not remotely frowned upon. That said, if my opponent had an issue with it, I wouldn't do it. I'd just shuffle my deck much more thoroughly, which would take more time and probably accomplish the same thing.

Speaking of which, the attitude that anyone with a conflicting viewpoint here is a scrub is out-of-hand. Drew and several other solid, recognized players have spoken for the dissent. The idea that declumping is acceptable is not some idiotic fringe opinion held only by new players or those who don't understand the situation.

Also, for the record, I'm not going to weigh in on the issue of people who "declump" and then fail to shuffle well. I think we can all agree that that is stacking, cheating, and unacceptable.
 
Your logic is so flawed and without reasoning. And you can only cut with 2 piles, if you "cut any way you like" it turns into a shuffle.



Netdecking is cheating, and whereever you're getting this insane idea, you're wrong and foolish. As for the only time people declump is during a search, when else would they exactly? It's clearly obvious, but then saying shuffle your deck afterwards nullifies it shouldn't matter. You can't cheat then say oh i'm shuffling after i'm done so it doesn't matter. No. You can't cheat. Any time. I'm sorry you think people are "netdecking" but what it's doing in this arguement is beyond me and has nothing to do with declumping.



Clearly you've never judged a tournament before.

Netdecking is not cheating to you because you do it. Do you see where I'm getting at.
 
All I really saw of that was, "it is not against the rules." I think the reason why it's against the rules is irrelevant at this point. This discussion seems to have disintegrated to one of whether or not it qualifies as "cheating." By your own testimony, it doesn't. Bad sportsmanship or whatever =/= cheating. I'm not arguing as to whether it's a "good thing." I'm neutral; I just don't see the huge issue with it. It no more interferes with randomization than pile shuffling a sorted deck before shuffling at the beginning, which is perfectly legal and not remotely frowned upon. That said, if my opponent had an issue with it, I wouldn't do it. I'd just shuffle my deck much more thoroughly, which would take more time and probably accomplish the same thing.

Speaking of which, the attitude that anyone with a conflicting viewpoint here is a scrub is out-of-hand. Drew and several other solid, recognized players have spoken for the dissent. The idea that declumping is acceptable is not some idiotic fringe opinion held only by new players or those who don't understand the situation.

Also, for the record, I'm not going to weigh in on the issue of people who "declump" and then fail to shuffle well. I think we can all agree that that is stacking, cheating, and unacceptable.

Tell me about it. I swear I pressed some kind of loop button or something. It looks like it's only going to get worse from here though :p
 
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