Werewolf xvi the rise of team plasma: Town wins

[Diaz]

480
@people who are arguing the "no lynch" vs "lynch", just note that Cardz was a bad guy in that game and Ikrit was a townie. Both absolutely great players.
That said,
Unvote: Sdrawkcab
Vote: No Lynch
Of course this is not ideal. If a better lynch candidates comes up, then we can go for it. For now, with the night only hours away, we as townies need to take control. We need to get enough votes together to prevent wolves from bandwagoning on a strong townie. As it stands, just 3 wolves could get together and lynch whoever they want. This is unacceptable. I think that for now, a reasonable compromise is to go for a "no lynch".

I will add to Ikrit's defense of the "no lynch" vote that: We are playing a WW game where almost everyone has a role and lots of clues are gained from that. We can use these clues to gain an advantage over the wolves. Aside from whatever mathematical argument you might have for or against, we need to realize that the chances of lynching a townie day 1 are high. This is significantly due to day 1 being the easiest day for wolves to manipulate an uninformed town. Also, the longer the game goes, the more time we have to find evidence. No lynch on day 1 means that we don't blindly vote someone out, which might help to give us an extra chance at voting someone later when we have more evidence.

 

[Sandslash7]

#475

NO.

Cardz did NOT say it best.


His whole argument is based on numbers. PERFECTLY EXACT NUMBERS. What do I mean by this?


Everything has to go exactly as planned for his numbers to work out in the way he wants (keeping the town in "power" with an appropriate percentage).


IT NEVER HAPPENS LIKE THAT.


ONE priesting on a townie, saving them from a Wolf, causes Cardz' plan to FALL APART. COMPLETELY. This causes the town to become unequally weighted and REQUIRES his theory to Vote: No One that next day to get the numbers back into alignment.

ONE Vigilante kill on a townie throws off this alignment, causing his plan to SELF DESTRUCT. The town would be required to Vote: No One to get the numbers back into the right proportions.

TWO Night kills in general is what obliterates his theory. ANY time that happens, it REQUIRES a No Vote from the town if his theory is to be believed.


Ikrit completely disproved this theory at the end of WW XIII (XII?), but Cardz never gave him a response about it.





Of the candidates we do have:

1. Diaz has the most votes right now. It is clear that he LIED about having a speech impediment. Lying is bad, as Cantor has shown us. Townies have no reason or motivation to lie.
2. Dave628 (one of the other candidates) has not put up a defense against his accuser(s). As Jpulice and King Piplup has mentioned, he hasn't been cleared yet.
3. Lil_Magma is completely off the clock. I'm disappointed in his play.

Diaz? I'm definitely keeping my eye on him.
Dave628? Its pretty suspicious to just ignore the fact that you have votes for you.
Lil_Magma? I don't like inactives.


@A/AM: Is Vote: No One an option for this game?

 

[Absoltrainer]

alright alright. I was wrong. Don't need to rub in my face

 

[jellyfisher]

@orcmonkey2000: First off, I'm not sure there's much point in voting for DP with this little time left in the day. And also, if you look back in previous games, DP is almost always defending Diaz. And every single time he does it, they end up having completely unrelated roles. So saying that DP is the most vocal in defending Diaz doesn't mean all that much.

 

[Diaz]

484
Did you guys read the links I posted earlier? Day 1 I'm constantly figuring out ways of starting discussion. That is what I did today. Look at how much discussion has come out of day 1. Much more than most other games.

This is not by accident. I made discussion happen. You're welcome.
There could have been very little discussion today. A majority of the discussion has been caused by me.

At some point we'll look back at this game-day and gain info about wolves from it. Once we get a good idea of who is a townie, the players who are on the offensive against townies (read: the players attacking me) will be found out. Odds on a wolf having attacked me or another townie today. (Quote me on this one.)

For anyone attacking DP: that's even crazier than attacking me. To suggest that DP is a wolf is to suggest that he is in a wolf group with me who you are assuming is a wolf. You have no reasonable claim to say what my alignment is, so you have no way to claim that he is a wolf. If you aren't trying to say that we're both wolves, then you're saying that we're in some sort of non-wolf group. If you think that, then why even attack us?

The reality of the situation is that DP just understands what I'm doing/did. He sees me making discussion and shaking things up. And I hope he (and the rest of the townies) appreciate the clues that I've stirred up.

As soon as it seemed like my antics were becoming too much of a distraction and too little of discussion provoker, I came clean. I could have continued posting video links. (Really, I kinda thought - "if we have to play, might as well have some tunes on" lol)




You were wrong absol, but I don't hold it against you. Since you've conceded the logical point, why not vote "no lynch"?

@ rest of the town: Even if you're unsure about me and my alignment, look at the other players who have put forth the argument for a "no lynch". Do you really think we're all wolves trying to deceive you? (ikrit doing it from the dead in a past game lol)

Even if you are a cynic and think we might all be wolves out to get you: would the wolves, seeing a very undecided town in the last hours of the day, suggest a "no lynch"? Of course not! They would target any townie instead and easily win that vote.

Every other townie should vote for a "no lynch"

 

[DragonClyne725]

I do believe that Diaz is telling the truth, and that he was only trying to start discussion with his fake speaking impediments. Yes, he did in a sense "lie" to us by faking them, but once discussion was started and rolling he dropped them. I am not saying that I do not think that Diaz is a wolf, I am merely saying that we shouldn't condemn him for just trying to start discussion. That's basically the only reason (at least that I can see) that people have voted for him.


Anyway,
Unvote: Lil_Magma
Vote: PokemonFreak5

Where'd you go? You posted once at the start of the Day, and seem to have completely disappeared

Every other townie should vote for a "no lynch"

Lol, "If you are a townie, you should vote for a no lynch". Peer pressure doesn't cut any ice with me bro :thumb:

 

[Diaz]

Did you read the rest of the thread? Did you read the rest of the post? That wasn't an argument. That was a conclusion.

 

[Absoltrainer]

You were wrong absol, but I don't hold it against you. Since you've conceded the logical point, why not vote "no lynch"?

Valid logic. Vote: No Lynch

 

[ProHawk]

484

This is not by accident. I made discussion happen. You're welcome.
There could have been very little discussion today. A majority of the discussion has been caused by me.

At some point we'll look back at this game-day and gain info about wolves from it. Once we get a good idea of who is a townie, the players who are on the offensive against townies (read: the players attacking me) will be found out. Odds on a wolf having attacked me or another townie today. (Quote me on this one.)

Are you suggesting that the players attacking you are scum?

For anyone attacking DP: that's even crazier than attacking me. To suggest that DP is a wolf is to suggest that he is in a wolf group with me who you are assuming is a wolf. You have no reasonable claim to say what my alignment is, so you have no way to claim that he is a wolf. If you aren't trying to say that we're both wolves, then you're saying that we're in some sort of non-wolf group. If you think that, then why even attack us?

Very true statement

The reality of the situation is that DP just understands what I'm doing/did. He sees me making discussion and shaking things up. And I hope he (and the rest of the townies) appreciate the clues that I've stirred up.

As soon as it seemed like my antics were becoming too much of a distraction and too little of discussion provoker, I came clean. I could have continued posting video links. (Really, I kinda thought - "if we have to play, might as well have some tunes on" lol)


You were wrong absol, but I don't hold it against you. Since you've conceded the logical point, why not vote "no lynch"?

@ rest of the town: Even if you're unsure about me and my alignment, look at the other players who have put forth the argument for a "no lynch". Do you really think we're all wolves trying to deceive you? (ikrit doing it from the dead in a past game lol)

Even if you are a cynic and think we might all be wolves out to get you: would the wolves, seeing a very undecided town in the last hours of the day, suggest a "no lynch"? Of course not! They would target any townie instead and easily win that vote.

Every other townie should vote for a "no lynch"

Comments in blue from quote.

@ Diaz,

Thank you for providing an official response. I personally don't think that your discussion was all that helpful at finding wolves, but perhaps I will be proven wrong. I found it to be more distracting than anything.

In response to your @ town, I believe that a wolf could generally care less either way, a lynch, or a non lynch. This is because they get to kill a townie without drawing any attention from suggestions (on a no lynch). Or for a lynch, they would get two kills (assuming the towns target is also a townie). Interestingly, the only scenario that I can think of where wolves would voice their opinion for a no lynch would be if a wolf was winning in vote tallies (Which happens to be you at the moment). People who I saw supporting a no-lynch... (is 4 wolves too many?)

PCPB
SS7
Diaz
Absol (seemingly from coercion)

Let me know if I missed anything!

 

[Absoltrainer]

Absol (seemingly from coercion)

How is it coercion?

 

[ProHawk]

How is it coercion?

Perhaps coercion was the wrong term, but your original position was against, and later changed to for due to logical arguments. Let me correct the term coercion to swayed

 

[Absoltrainer]

Perhaps coercion was the wrong term, but your original position was against, and later changed to for due to logical arguments. Let me correct the term coercion to swayed

I was proved wrong by what I considered superior logic. My stance changed, so yes, swayed is the correct term, but choosing to vote was my decision.

 

[Diaz]

@ProHawk - If you don't understand and respect someone changing their stance when superior evidence is provided to them, then you're in big trouble in this game.

 

[PokeChampofPokeBeach]

I don't want to see a townie die today. Unless we can get a good lead in the next few hours, I think I've made up my mind.

Providing it is a valid option...

Vote: No Lynch

 

[ProHawk]

@ProHawk - If you don't understand and respect someone changing their stance when superior evidence is provided to them, then you're in big trouble in this game.

Who said I had anything against it? I am only trying to state the facts. A little defensive are we?

 

[Arcanine/Arbok Master]

Votes to lynch : 16!

Vote count:

Diaz (2): sdrawkcab, Cantor
NO LYNCH (3): Diaz, AbsolTrainer. PokeChampOfPokeBeach
Dave628 (1): pokemonfreak5
Pmysterious (1): jellyfisher
PokeChampOfPokeBeach (1): scottistru
PokemonFreak5 (1): DragonClyne725
DarthPika (1): OrcMonkey2000

Game day ends in about 8 hours...

 

[desufnoc]

#475

@A/AM: Is Vote: No One an option for this game?

I would like to know the answer to this question also. Also I would like to look at the pros and cons of voting "no lynch"

Pros: We don't accidently vote off a townie or worse yet a power role townie.

People who were acting scummy day 1 have another day to prove themselves.

Cons: We don't lynch a wolf and they will get to kill a townie anyways.

They could just kill someone who has not proved scummy in the first place and it would put us back at square one.

Personally I think the cons outweigh the pros but like someone had said earlier, this is just a crapshoot in the dark. Can anyone else think of any pros and cons that I may be missing (Which I am sure I am, since I am still new at this game)?

 

[King Piplup]

I would like to know the answer to this question also. Also I would like to look at the pros and cons of voting "no lynch"

Pros: We don't accidently vote off a townie or worse yet a power role townie.

People who were acting scummy day 1 have another day to prove themselves.

Cons: We don't lynch a wolf and they will get to kill a townie anyways.

They could just kill someone who has not proved scummy in the first place and it would put us back at square one.

Personally I think the cons outweigh the pros but like someone had said earlier, this is just a crapshoot in the dark. Can anyone else think of any pros and cons that I may be missing (Which I am sure I am, since I am still new at this game)?

Based on the fact that AAM has it in the vote count, I would say it's a valid option.

Also, it is the option I believe best for the town:
Vote: No Lynch

 

[DarthPika]

I really didn't want to get dragged into a long involved argument this early in the game, but I do not wish to ignore your post, least looking like I'm trying to avoid an accusation. Replies on bold.

473

I apologize for waiting so long to post, I went on a day trip with a couple friends yesterday and didn't get back until very late, at which point I fell asleep as soon as my head hit my pillow.



I am in complete concurrence with Absol, I believe that is a HORRIBLE idea. The wolves likely will not refrain from attacking the townies, why should we refrain from lynching potential wolves?

I agree, we should lynch someone. I do not like no lynch. The wolves will leave the n00bs anyway (and then manipulate them later on in the game), so it may be in our best interest to see who's going to shape up, and who's not. Or for that matter, who's playing funny and who's not.

As for who we should lynch...I've been looking back over the thread, and I noticed as well the point a number of people have made about Diaz suddenly going very...normal...and much quieter than he was for a good while. I've also noticed that no one has been as vocally protective of Diaz as DarthPika. Check it out.

I have played with Diaz for many games now. I know what he plays like, and I know how he thinks. We have a lot of new players this game, and they asked if he was suspicious or not, and I simply explained why he wasn't, and what he was doing. Strangely enough, no one seems to want to listen to me.

Since post #372, DP has made four posts, including that one (if I counted right...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Of these posts, three have been very strongly defensive of Diaz, insisting that there is no evidence to support the idea that he is a wolf. While this in itself doesn't seem scummy (necessarily), also notice that EVERY SINGLE TIME, his defense for his position is "I've seen him do this before, this is normal, he's just trying to make the game interesting/stir up n00bs/etc." To me, this defense seems very weak, since it has nothing to do with Diaz' play in THIS game, and his reactions (or recently, lack thereof) to other players' posts. Check it out:

I'm not defending Diaz. I'm just telling the new players what he's doing. There's a difference. Diaz can take care of him self, however, sometimes a new player needs someone OTHER than the guy who's acting all screwy to explain a particular motive to actually believe it.





But you may ask, what about his other post? Well, while it does specifically mention Diaz at one point, it seems much more concerned with pointing the finger at new players, while trying to take the heat off some of the more experienced ones. Note that Diaz is the only experienced player he mentions directly before he says this:



Indirect defense, sure, but seems like a defense to me. Looks to me like he's trying to point the finger elsewhere.

Not really.... it's day one, and I'm simply trying to make sure the wrong person doesn't get lynched.

But there's more! I've also noticed that, although several players have offered defenses of Diaz, claiming that this is normal behavior for him or that his actions don't seem particularly scummy and do not warrant a lynching, ONLY DarthPika's defense has been directly recognized and QFT'ed by Diaz himself. (See post #389, since I can't quote quotes in quotes.)

Are you REALLY suggesting that we're in some form of mason group, if not wolves? Do you honestly think either of us are that stupid? The last thing I would do is call attention to my self. Even if this would be an example of reverse psychology to call attention to my self, because neither of us would ever do such a thing if we were wolves, it would STILL attract the attention of a seer down the road, and that would be a death sentence. I have no idea who Diaz is in this game, or what his alignment is. You're way over analyzing something that isn't there.

I think it just did. Explain yourself, DP.

VOTE: DarthPika

BTW: In the interest of protecting myself from any convenient ad hominem arguments that might get thrown around due to my earlier posts, I would also like to note preemptively that this is not a personal attack due to DP's arguments for lynching poorly playing new players. This is why I specifically quoted everything he said concerning Diaz and laid my argument out logically. While DP and I have different views on the subject of new players, I fully acknowledge that his views on that topic have weight, both because he is a veteran and because he has pretty solid reasons for holding them--I merely disagree because in any game, not just WW, I prefer to give newer players a chance, regardless of how badly they are playing, so long as they do not ignore the advice of veterans and persist in ruining the game for everyone else. But, to reiterate for clarity's sake:

New players need to learn FAST in WW. You either learn fast, or you get killed/lynched. That's just how the game works. The wolves use the new players as bait, so they're always a danger to the town if they don't shape up their play fast.

My argument against and vote for DP has nothing to do with any personal disagreements between us, but rather because of his consistent, irrational, and (seemingly) scummy defense of Diaz.

There is nothing irrational about my defense. I know him, I know how he plays, and I know what he was doing. There is nothing irrational, or scummy about simply explaining what the heck he was doing so he doesn't get attacked by a bunch of over zealous new players.

Please discuss.

 

[orcmonkey2000]

We don't accidently vote off a townie or worse yet a power role townie.

Won't happen, because any decently intelligent power-role townie would role reveal before he got lynched.

People who were acting scummy day 1 have another day to prove themselves.

Simple solution to that: don't lynch any of the players who, while slightly suspicious early on, seemed to vacillate back and forth between wolfish/townie behavior, and/or displayed genuinely noobish tendencies.

Cons: We don't lynch a wolf and they will get to kill a townie anyways.

Very true. Definitely something to consider, for everyone who is going the no-lynch route. I personally think that lynching either Diaz or DP is a viable option unless they do as PM did and provide some reasonable explanation for their actions. Same promise I made to PM stands here: provide a good, solid explanation for your actions, and I will unvote and stop trying to get others to vote for one of you.

I also would like DP to actually respond to my post rather than hiding behind Diaz' incredibly weak defense.