Werewolf xvi the rise of team plasma: Town wins

[Redados1]

^Aha...

My case for that person...



Seems to be directly asking about LOTR, which highly signals to me that he IS a LOTR character...Most likely wizard.

You have until 10 AM PST to answer this, or I will consider you as primary lynch.

@Redados1- Are you a wizard/do you have magical powers?

Answer as you see fit.


(AND NO I do not have a color impediment... )

It was an honest suggestion, I was trying to be more helpful and I saw a flaw in the plan. I see no reason that it would be suspicious.

because color is fun: I am not a wizard. I am not from the LOTR universe

 

[Diaz]

@ Napoleon:

Thanks for clarifying, I did not quite understand the situation in that depth. I must say I agree, that role is inherently broken. Protection of this role could be a key to our smooth victory in this game. This seems like a great course of action for us to take, it will give the town a lot of control I think. For one, we'll be able to protect Omega, which will make him/her even more of an asset to us. Secondly, it will give us a better read on Diaz, who at this moment we don't know very much about.

I'll also add that Diaz was initially hesitant to reveal the name, which might be a sign that he does not actually have it. This may be the only way to catch him in a lie, assuming he is not innocent as was originally assumed. So at this point I think he should be pressured.

I think your logic is sound, Napoleon. I think we should hammer Diaz. I'll continue from where you started,
Vote: Diaz

It isn't that powerful. Requires role-block being accepted. Hasn't worked once this game. Also, priests often come with role-blocks.

 

[ProHawk]

If I may be so bold as to ask. Is the only reason Diaz survived day 1 because he was a "vet" and could prove to be "valuable?"

I can only speak for myself, as I did switch my vote from Diaz to Dave in a decisive swing. I would like to say that my reasoning absolutely did NOT have anything to do with him being a "vet". There was a good deal of support that Diaz was a good player. Therefore, as a new player I wanted to give Diaz a chance to prove himself. In all reality, there was little concrete evidence to go off of for the lynch of anyone.

 

[Diaz]

Honestly, Diaz revealing Omega would make me want to lynch him more. You are right in saying it is a very powerful role, simply because of the ability of the seer to not reveal and yet bring the results to the town through the other person.

The issue is that the other person the seer picks has to actually be a townie for that to work.

Also Napoleon, if it is such a broken role, why did you not acquiesce to use it? It seems like either your role is better than a seer or you did not want him to learn information about you.

Honestly I think Diaz should be lynched in an effort to force gym metagame progression beyond its current stagnant state of vet reverence and doing things that have no town positive, yet allow wolves to do things that are good for them...aka lying, and have a case for escaping judgement for that lie.

Vote: Diaz

Damned if I do... Napoleon refused to help a seer last night to have more control over information. Bump

 

[Son_of_Apollo]

bumping it for diaz

 

[Diaz]

@Napoleon, how pissed would you be if you were Omega and I outed you.
If Omega posts that I should out Omega, then I'll do it.

 

[Pikamaster]

Honestly, Diaz revealing Omega would make me want to lynch him more. You are right in saying it is a very powerful role, simply because of the ability of the seer to not reveal and yet bring the results to the town through the other person.

The issue is that the other person the seer picks has to actually be a townie for that to work.

Also Napoleon, if it is such a broken role, why did you not acquiesce to use it? It seems like either your role is better than a seer or you did not want him to learn information about you.

Honestly I think Diaz should be lynched in an effort to force gym metagame progression beyond its current stagnant state of vet reverence and doing things that have no town positive, yet allow wolves to do things that are good for them...aka lying, and have a case for escaping judgement for that lie.

Vote: Diaz

Cantor, here is where I start to get really annoyed. You're saying we should vote Diaz off JUST because he's a good player and we don't want to vote off good players? Whether or not he has "vet" status means NOTHING. If someone who's KNOWN to be good does something weird, and then STOPS, what reason do you have for lynching him with no other evidence? If Diaz had substantial evidence against him, of course he's likely to be lynched, unless there's a very good reason why he should stay. But right now, there isn't. We have no more reason to lynch Diaz than we do PMysterious.

The fact that you want to lynch him simply to "force gym metagame progression beyond its current stagnant state of vet reverence" is stupid. Pokegym games are of the more fun games, BECAUSE the players who play stupidly either die or step up their game. Look at Napoleon, look at Waynegg. Both of those people played their first WW games in the last few games, yet they are GOOD. They don't have "vet status", but we aren't going to say "we lynch Napoleon over Diaz because Diaz has vet status". Heck, if there was solid evidence that Diaz was a WW, I'd gladly vote him, even if PMysterious was the other choice. Why? Because WE PLAY TO WIN. I will not throw a player I know to be good on the chopping block with no evidence rather than a player who is very bad, hasn't gotten better, but has the same amount of evidence against him. What you're suggesting is harmful to the town.

Long story short, don't get annoyed if you suck and get lynched. Because the idea of voting someone off because they're good is stupid and wolfish. Will Diaz turn out to be an indy/wolf, I don't know. But killing him because he's good is stupid. Might as well say "These people know what they're doing, let's kill them all because they're a cut above us and that makes us mad". If you haven't noticed, SS7 is a "vet", but he was lynched. We do not revere vets, we just value the fact that they are good players to achieve that "status".

TLNR version, I'm sick enough to miss class and posts by noobs who want to kill someone with no real reason makes me annoyed.

 

[Diaz]

Honestly I think Diaz should be lynched in an effort to force gym metagame progression beyond its current stagnant state of vet reverence and doing things that have no town positive, yet allow wolves to do things that are good for them...aka lying, and have a case for escaping judgement for that lie.

Don't like how the town plays on the 'gym? How many Pokegym WW games have the wolves won?

 

[Pikamaster]

Diaz, if I could thank that post, I would...

 

[Son_of_Apollo]

How many games have the wolves won? Just curious

 

[Pikamaster]

Absolutely none, Son_of_Apollo. Out of 15 games, the wolves have won none.

 

[Jason]

Wolves came very close to like 2 or 3 of them, IIRC.

 

[Pikamaster]

Also, one more sidenote. Back in the game were DarthPika and I first played, DP out-argued Absoltrainer (a wolf) and got him lynched. Then DP later won the game (he was town aligned). According to you, AT's "vet status" should've saved him, Cantor.

 

[Diaz]

http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2242036&postcount=955
In this post, someone is referred to as such. Someone please claim it?

I'd like to get back to this.

 

[sdrawkcab]

dead guy bump I guess.

 

[King Piplup]

Working on it Diaz...

Redados1-Does your role make mention of magical powers anywhere?

ANYWHERE? (Including your abilities)

Also, sorry about lime green.


Posted with Mobile style...

 

[ProHawk]

... doing things that have no town positive, yet allow wolves to do things that are good for them...aka lying, and have a case for escaping judgement for that lie.

Vote: Diaz

I wholeheartedly agree with THIS^ statement (quoted in bold). We throw out idle threats (against PM and others) and yet do little about them as a collective whole. As I have said before, and will continue to push - The wolves will hide if permitted because they cannot be cross examined if they have nothing to be compared against.

Summary of Night 2 (Comments in

Here's a list of the final vote standings:

SandSlash7 (10): AbsolTrainer, Diaz, DragonClyne725, PMysterious, Scottistru, Jellyfisher, Son_of_Apollo, PokechampOfPokebeach, Redados1, KingPiplup
Benzo (1): PokemonFreak5
Desufnoc (3): JewelQuest, Jpulice, Benzo
BabyMario (2): Prohawk, Sandslash7

The people who did not vote are Barkjon, Jason, Akane, Baby Mario (replaced), PikaMaster, TheKing, Cantor, Ultimatedra, and Darth Pika. I underlined the people who also did not vote the last game day. NOT VOTING IS NOT COOL. IT DOES NOT BENEFIT THE TOWN AT ALL

Interesting to note that jpulice was really pushing to flip the vote against SandSlash7 right up to the end. He jumps on the Baby Mario inactive lynch wagon, then when that doesn't pickup, tries pushing the desufnoc lynch and manages to get JQ and Benzo on board, both stating that the reason they are voting for desufnoc is because they trust jpulice.

@DC725,

According to my count, you missed two people who did not vote last night. Desufnoc and Napoleon. I would like to hope that it was again an honest mistake, but it was the second one I caught in your update summary. Mistakes in an update summary are EXTREMELY dangerous for cross-examination because people who don't do their own fact-checking will take what you say as accurate.

We all need to take a closer look at these people who are not voting and are trying to "stay out" of the whole process for whatever reason. I don't want to make it sound like ALL of the wolves are hiding, because I am sure any seasoned wolf will understand that is important to blend in. What I AM saying is that it is an easy and safe "out", so if they can get away with it, why wouldn't they? As a town, we need to make sure they stay active and posting in order to catch lies and deceit.

Players that seem like they are hiding out to me include:

Jason - I realize this has come up about his playstyle, but who cares? It's not pro-town, so he needs to be confirmed town, and then he can continue his mundane playstyle.

Akane - Many excuses to excuse his lack of posting... may or may not be valid, but still, at LEAST needs to be voting.

DarthPika - He did post with the finals excuse, and hopefully should be able to start contributing at the least tomorrow. But he has yet to provide a final vote at all this game. Again, NEEDS to vote.

One last observation.
@Napoleon,

I think your strategy is interesting, but I just cannot fathom how it is pro-town, at all. Outing a seer role just seems like it would only benefit the wolves. After people have more time to sift through this post, I will post some specific points on Napoleon's posts later.

 

[Pikamaster]

DarthPika - He did post with the finals excuse, and hopefully should be able to start contributing at the least tomorrow. But he has yet to provide a final vote at all this game. Again, NEEDS to vote.

Yeah, he should be. Being his brother, I do happen to know that he's been busy with school and stuff and really hasn't been able to get on.

 

[Cantor]

Cantor, here is where I start to get really annoyed. You're saying we should vote Diaz off JUST because he's a good player and we don't want to vote off good players? Whether or not he has "vet" status means NOTHING. If someone who's KNOWN to be good does something weird, and then STOPS, what reason do you have for lynching him with no other evidence? If Diaz had substantial evidence against him, of course he's likely to be lynched, unless there's a very good reason why he should stay. But right now, there isn't. We have no more reason to lynch Diaz than we do PMysterious.

The fact that you want to lynch him simply to "force gym metagame progression beyond its current stagnant state of vet reverence" is stupid. Pokegym games are of the more fun games, BECAUSE the players who play stupidly either die or step up their game. Look at Napoleon, look at Waynegg. Both of those people played their first WW games in the last few games, yet they are GOOD. They don't have "vet status", but we aren't going to say "we lynch Napoleon over Diaz because Diaz has vet status". Heck, if there was solid evidence that Diaz was a WW, I'd gladly vote him, even if PMysterious was the other choice. Why? Because WE PLAY TO WIN. I will not throw a player I know to be good on the chopping block with no evidence rather than a player who is very bad, hasn't gotten better, but has the same amount of evidence against him. What you're suggesting is harmful to the town.

Long story short, don't get annoyed if you suck and get lynched. Because the idea of voting someone off because they're good is stupid and wolfish. Will Diaz turn out to be an indy/wolf, I don't know. But killing him because he's good is stupid. Might as well say "These people know what they're doing, let's kill them all because they're a cut above us and that makes us mad". If you haven't noticed, SS7 is a "vet", but he was lynched. We do not revere vets, we just value the fact that they are good players to achieve that "status".

TLNR version, I'm sick enough to miss class and posts by noobs who want to kill someone with no real reason makes me annoyed.

Personally I don't find straw men nor ad hominem arguments persuasive. That is honestly all your post was. I never said that we should lynch him because he is a vet, nor did I ever make your mistake of equating vet-status with being a good player. Indeed this is completely counter to my underlying argument that we should deal with people based on their play NOT their status.

Diaz should be lynched because he lied. Your argument is that he is a good player and should be allowed to lie. Allowing people to lie allows wolves to lie as well as setting a metagame precedent that you can lie in future games. Lying and being allowed to live serves one unique benefit that cannot be gotten from other strategies, wolves lying and getting to live. I will quote my post with the reasoning in it so that you will hopefully not construct another fallacious argument.

Diaz seems to be the best lynch. He has lied. He is playing out of character(OOC). I read all of the games he has played in...lying by faking a speech role is new. He has voted seemingly randomly, and one of those times he repeated the person's name, likely to get past the 17 limit, and several people thought that might be a speech thing...but he did not continue it. Playing OOC is scummy.

He has been defended by: (Nameost(s))
Barkjon:323
Darthpika:372, 388
Pikamaster:387

He accepted Darthpika's defense and did not actually state anything original in post 389. Not only should we Lynch all Liars(LaL), but he is receiving and accepting defense from other people.

Don't like how the town plays on the 'gym? How many Pokegym WW games have the wolves won?

Ah an illicit causation. Shall we also claim that everyone should live as if it was the 1950s because there was no terrorism? This is an oversimplification of something which has an exceptionally large number of large range causatives.

 

[JewelQuest]

I wholeheartedly agree with THIS^ statement (quoted in bold). We throw out idle threats (against PM and others) and yet do little about them as a collective whole. As I have said before, and will continue to push - The wolves will hide if permitted because they cannot be cross examined if they have nothing to be compared against.




@DC725,

According to my count, you missed two people who did not vote last night. Desufnoc and Napoleon. I would like to hope that it was again an honest mistake, but it was the second one I caught in your update summary. Mistakes in an update summary are EXTREMELY dangerous for cross-examination because people who don't do their own fact-checking will take what you say as accurate.

We all need to take a closer look at these people who are not voting and are trying to "stay out" of the whole process for whatever reason. I don't want to make it sound like ALL of the wolves are hiding, because I am sure any seasoned wolf will understand that is important to blend in. What I AM saying is that it is an easy and safe "out", so if they can get away with it, why wouldn't they? As a town, we need to make sure they stay active and posting in order to catch lies and deceit.

Players that seem like they are hiding out to me include:

Jason - I realize this has come up about his playstyle, but who cares? It's not pro-town, so he needs to be confirmed town, and then he can continue his mundane playstyle.

Akane - Many excuses to excuse his lack of posting... may or may not be valid, but still, at LEAST needs to be voting.

DarthPika - He did post with the finals excuse, and hopefully should be able to start contributing at the least tomorrow. But he has yet to provide a final vote at all this game. Again, NEEDS to vote.

One last observation.
@Napoleon,

I think your strategy is interesting, but I just cannot fathom how it is pro-town, at all. Outing a seer role just seems like it would only benefit the wolves. After people have more time to sift through this post, I will post some specific points on Napoleon's posts later.

Napoleon did vote for Scott at one point.....

Personally I don't find straw men nor ad hominem arguments persuasive. That is honestly all your post was. I never said that we should lynch him because he is a vet, nor did I ever make your mistake of equating vet-status with being a good player. Indeed this is completely counter to my underlying argument that we should deal with people based on their play NOT their status.

Diaz should be lynched because he lied. Your argument is that he is a good player and should be allowed to lie. Allowing people to lie allows wolves to lie as well as setting a metagame precedent that you can lie in future games. Lying and being allowed to live serves one unique benefit that cannot be gotten from other strategies, wolves lying and getting to live. I will quote my post with the reasoning in it so that you will hopefully not construct another fallacious argument.




Ah an illicit causation. Shall we also claim that everyone should live as if it was the 1950s because there was no terrorism? This is an oversimplification of something which has an exceptionally large number of large range causatives.

Diaz didn't really 'lie', at least, not in my eyes. He just did a bunch of crazy stuff in order to cause conversation. Sure, it was mostly 'useless' conversation, but it did keep the game going. The only reason he isn't doing so now is because someone seems to be out to get him and is keeping his posting limited.

I'd like to see Akane post more. I am pretty sure she posted more than this last game when she was Chewbacca.