Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[Diaz]

If you defend someone in public, it is only because you believe they are town. Why would you defend someone who you didn't think was town?

This just isn't true. If I feel someone is being unjustly attacked, I will defend them from that attack, no matter what alignment I think they have. I could easily see myself defending someone who I think is scum from an illogical attack (while pushing myown logic as to why I think they are scum.) I don't have strong reads on basically anyone yet, but if someone is getting attacked without logic behind it, I'm going to point it out. (I do this with your attack on SS7 later in this post. I have no idea what ss7's alignment is, but I think some of the conclusions you're drawing about him are unfounded.)

You're spending a lot of time defending AT. Do you think he is a townie? If so, what lead you to that conclusion?

http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2363905&postcount=524

This is the post you linked to in your last post. I had issues with it when it was posted, and still do.

Your thoughts about the motivations behind different actions are very speculative. For example:

D) You wanted to set the stage for a future attack/case. Scum-Motivation

Setting the stage for a future attack is something townies can and should do as much as wolves (so long as those attack sound and logical). Why wouldn't a townie plan ahead for future attacks on wolves? When you're convinced you've found a wolf, this sort of back up evidence is good. Setting up for a valid and logical attack on potential wolves isn't a bad thing. It wasn't like he was only setting up AT. He had a lot of players on that list, and when more information arises, that is the kind of info we'll look back on to make decisions.

Again, your position that you are in the same position as Absol is completely false. I am more closely in the same position as Absol considering we made the same attacks on HD for the same reason - his opportunistic attack on Vablakes. You actually said Vablakes was "newbtown", therefore you did defend the towniness of Vablakes. Please show me how you saying someone is newbtown and attacking someone for their attack on the accused are one in the same. I am not seeing it.

No one goes around saying "Hey I am defending XYZ player!". It is always more subtle than that. I'm not convinced that you don't understand what's going on, as much as I think you might be being intentionally dense.

Oh yeah? I didn't see a proper conclusion from your points so what about your analysis made you so glad? I see you are still without a vote on anyone... sitting on the fence for some reason?

You're implying a lot with these last few lines. I don't think the argument you've had with SS7 so far warrants the conclusion you're implying.

Vote: Prohawk


SS7, I think your analysis was well done.

2) Absol completely over-reacts due to his placement.

What do you mean "His placement"?

AT and Prohawk seem to not understand how AT's words were a defense. Do you believe they honestly don't have the reading comprehension for this? I'm not convinced. I think they might be smarter than that. They're arguments remind me my past experiences seeing wolves make and cling to illogical postitions and trying to convince others to agree with them. (See Cabd ect claiming that my clearing of KK last game wasn't valid, or Simon's attack on Renton in WWA. Coincidentally these were both successful.)

 

[Sandslash7]

SS7, your post is incredibly awesome, but some of your links point to the same post with just a different post number. The way pokegym's single-post links work is weird. Can you reformat those lists please? Sorry to be a bearer of bad news =/

Wow, Ctrl-C/V failed me. I didn't check all of them... I mention formatting failure for Vegi and then I do the same thing.

To acquire the ISOs one can click on the # of posts in the thread (when sitting in the RTC, then chose the player you wish to see.


I'll see if I can get online later and repost those ISOs after I'm done studying today.

SS7 - You make points, but fail to provide the evidence. You are wrong about Absol defending Vablakes and my post in which I addressed the point provided the evidence. You say you read the posts, but then use Absol's words from a post hundreds of posts after the offending post. Re-Read my post HERE which provides the evidence for a complete picture. See post-quote.

If you defend someone in public, it is only because you believe they are town. Why would you defend someone who you didn't think was town? Case in Point: Can scum defend scum? Yes, but they are doing it because they want everyone else to believe they are town. A defense = a town read.

Second point that you failed to mention - I attacked HD because of his attack on Vablakes first, before Absol, yet failed to make it onto the list of associations as a defender of Vablakes. Was it an honest oversight? Its Vegi's list. Why weren't you on it?

Why is an attack (Absols "defense" of Vablake) on someone for their attack on someone else (HD's attack on Vablake) not a defense of the first person attacked? This is because bussing is a reality. Just because you attack someone does not make the attacked town. Are you saying that Absol thought HD was bussing Vablakes?

If you can prove that Absol thought Vablakes was town by his posts, then I will believe that Absol defended Vablakes. The truth is his "defense" was only an attacking point on HD and not really a defense of Vablakes. Absol never says that Vablakes is town. (in fact he strongly thinks Vablakes is a wolf now, due to his thoughts on Vegi).

Again, your position that you are in the same position as Absol is completely false. I am more closely in the same position as Absol considering we made the same attacks on HD for the same reason - his opportunistic attack on Vablakes. You actually said Vablakes was "newbtown", therefore you did defend the towniness of Vablakes. Please show me how you saying someone is newbtown and attacking someone for their attack on the accused are one in the same. I am not seeing it. That point was in response to Vegi's list. You were not on the list of "defenders of Vablakes", I was. That is how I'm in a "similar position to Absol."

Was Vegi's point interpretation? Yes. The problem is that it was the wrong interpretation. Absol corrected it, and later ensued the bloody conflict. Absol corrected it with extreme prejudice, and I still feel that Vegi had a valid interpretation.

Why is it bad that his post was interpretation? Vagi said he wanted those associations to be used when flips started happening. If he would have used it, and no one challenged it, chances are many people would just take his word for it without looking for the truth. Interpretations are fine as long as you are willing to change your interpretation once the truth is revealed. This is why I'm asking him for reads now.


Oh yeah? I didn't see a proper conclusion from your points so what about your analysis made you so glad? I see you are still without a vote on anyone... sitting on the fence for some reason?

I reread your post to be sure. I'll start off with your "motivations." 1 and 4 can just as easily be Town motivation. What townie would want to look like scum by not posting/putting effort into the game? What townie wouldn't want to make the groundwork for a case they were building against someone they suspected as scum? I see Vegi's post, using your motivation chart, as null, since its 1 town, 1 scum, and 2 50-50 motivations.

I am still without a vote on someone, yes. I see both Absol and Vegi as having scummy properties. Absol with his aggressive attack on Vegi, and Vegi due to some of the things he said during the exchange.


Also: Absol's first post

How is that role-fishing? Because he said "what roles do we expect to see in this game?" And he thinks that power roles are going to be slipping and saying their role in response? The seer isn't going to say there might be seers in the game, the detective isn't going to say there might be detectives in the game, and anyone with a unique role not seen before isn't going to say it either. If Valblakes had PUSHED the topic to try and get roles, I would call it role fishing.

Since HD was using "role fishing" as his case for scumminess, Absol's post saying "he wasn't role fishing" is a defense.


__________________________________________



Both Absol and Vegi bother me, but I don't have a clear suspect between the two of them. This will change as we get more information from both of them as the day progresses (we still have 3 days left).




Diaz ~ "His placement" meaning that he was "put into the 'defends Vablakes'" column by Vegi.

 

[ProHawk]

This just isn't true. If I feel someone is being unjustly attacked, I will defend them from that attack, no matter what alignment I think they have. I could easily see myself defending someone who I think is scum from an illogical attack (while pushing myown logic as to why I think they are scum.) I don't have strong reads on basically anyone yet, but if someone is getting attacked without logic behind it, I'm going to point it out. (I do this with your attack on SS7 later in this post. I have no idea what ss7's alignment is, but I think some of the conclusions you're drawing about him are unfounded.)

What? How can you defend the person being attacked if you are attacking them as scum yourself? This would be counter-productive. How does this make any sense? Saying "I believe Reason X to be illogical and unfounded" is not a defense of a person.

Have you ever done it before? We would need to see an example in order to determine if you are A) attacking the person making the "illogical attack", B) using the illogical attack to strengthen your own position, or some other variant.

So, lets provide an example here. I attack SS7 for being a fence-sitter. Lets say you think SS7 is scum (hypothetical) because he [insert whatever scum-tell you believe to be logical here] but feel that my accusation that SS7 is a fence-sitter is illogical. Show me how you would defend SS7 while pushing your own logic that he is scum.

You're spending a lot of time defending AT. Do you think he is a townie? If so, what lead you to that conclusion?

I am going to rephrase my position because you have somewhat of a point. A defense of a person indicates you do NOT have a scum read on that individual. But yes, I do have a town read on Absol. I stated my reasoning in my response to Vegitalian's post which paraphrased was: He threw all caution out to the wind, that leans town to me.

Your thoughts about the motivations behind different actions are very speculative. For example:

Setting the stage for a future attack is something townies can and should do as much as wolves (so long as those attack sound and logical). Why wouldn't a townie plan ahead for future attacks on wolves? When you're convinced you've found a wolf, this sort of back up evidence is good. Setting up for a valid and logical attack on potential wolves isn't a bad thing. It wasn't like he was only setting up AT. He had a lot of players on that list, and when more information arises, that is the kind of info we'll look back on to make decisions.

No one goes around saying "Hey I am defending XYZ player!". It is always more subtle than that. I'm not convinced that you don't understand what's going on, as much as I think you might be being intentionally dense.

You're implying a lot with these last few lines. I don't think the argument you've had with SS7 so far warrants the conclusion you're implying.

First, you need to clarify exactly what conclusion I am implying.

Second, of course they are speculative, that is the only way to see motivation because we can't read each-others minds.

A townie would plan ahead for a future attack, but he doesn't need to have an initial post to say "hey guys I saw this coming - see this is proof!" Especially if his argument is fundamentally sound. I don't see how you can "set-up" for a logical attack. Please provide a concrete example. If you have found a wolf, the logical argument should be based off of what he has done, not what you have done.

So you feel that the point about setting the stage for a future attack is town-motivated only, scum-motivated only, or both? Tell me how having a post as "backup-evidence" would provide any more credit than keeping your notes to yourself until you have a solid point to make.

You also failed to comment on my other speculations.

that is the kind of info we'll look back on to make decisions.

Precisely why this information needs to be flawless, which at the moment is not.

AT and Prohawk seem to not understand how AT's words were a defense. Do you believe they honestly don't have the reading comprehension for this? I'm not convinced. I think they might be smarter than that. They're arguments remind me my past experiences seeing wolves make and cling to illogical postitions and trying to convince others to agree with them. (See Cabd ect claiming that my clearing of KK last game wasn't valid, or Simon's attack on Renton in WWA. Coincidentally these were both successful.)

And you are calling me dense? You are saying that AT doesn't understand his own intentions? :nonono:

Oh, and nice try on the ad-hom attack with the whole reading comprehension/illogical thing. All bolded lines are particularly important that you respond to.

This goes for all of you that believe Absol did defend Vablakes and later voted him ----> He specifically stated it was not a defense therefore you are directly stating that he is lying. While I can only speculate as to what the real meaning of his post was, he knows exactly what it was.

 

[JewelQuest]

@SS7: XD You managed to ISO them before I managed to.

I am inclined to agree with him: Both players bother me. At this point, I would be perfectly fine with lynching either of them.

Absol is a known vet, which, though it doesn't mean we should follow his every word, means that he knows this game well enough to have a plan up his sleeve. If he is a wolf or indie with a LMS win condition, we could be in big trouble. But if he is a townie, then we want to keep him around. Unfortunately, it is going to be almost impossible to tell.

vegitalion plays well, but is a lot more likely to slip up than Absol(Well, perhaps except for the 'not afraid of the wolves' thing), just from having(I believe) less experience.

Out of these two, I'd be more comfortable with lynching Absol. If he is a priest who can protect himself, why would he? He, as playing as town, assuming he is town, should try to help the town, not himself.
If he is a wolf, then he is one of our(the town's) highest priorities.

Thus, I feel that I should change my vote.

Unvote: G landers
Vote: Absoltrainer

Questions for everyone else:
Why would AbsolTrainer post that he's not afraid of wolves? I feel like that's worth consideration.
How experienced is A/T in this game? How has he played in other games?

1. As I have said above, I feel that it means that he is a selfish priest, or a wolf.

2. Let's see, if I remember correctly, in Werewolf XVI, he made no less than two role reveals that were so in depth and well thought out that he got most of the town to believe him(Thankfully we managed to lynch him...eventually). He is one of the most experienced players here, I believe.

Take a look at that list. Seriously. Spend some time combing through it. Everyone near the bottom should be looking to post more. Our inactive list right now is huge. I've seen a few players be called on inactivity, but the only real way to get a grasp of how many inactives we have is by looking at that list. Click on a few of the lower numbers near the bottom to get a real feel for how little some people have contributed. Even people with 3 posts have: a sign up post, a role confirmation post. and a filler post early on. This isn't acceptable if we want the town to have any chance this game.

I would like to be more active than I am, but school isn't allowing that to happen. Thankfully I'm able to make a large-ish post every time I do get on.

 

[Human Destroyer]

Out of these two, I'd be more comfortable with lynching Absol. If he is a priest who can protect himself, why would he? He, as playing as town, assuming he is town, should try to help the town, not himself.

[DEL]The WIFOM, it burnsssssssssss[/DEL]

Seriously, if AT is a priest, I don't care how selfish he is, I sure don't want him lynched. This should not be used as a reason to vote someone.

I have a question, vegitalian. Why did you post a list of town reads and defenses, but not scumreads and attacks? Is it somehow less important to see how people attack each other?

Absoltrainer, I'll be honest, I would not have thought anything of that until you had such a ridiculous, over-the-top reaction. I'm not saying you didn't have the right to comment on it, but was it really necessary to get so angry about it?

Oh, also:

Vablakes

Valblake

Unvote: Vablake

I'd just like to point out that Absoltrainer spelled Vablakes 3 different ways. Now, I wouldn't have a problem with that if it were spread out among multiple posts he made, but he spelled it 3 different ways in the same post. If he was typing it all at one time, I highly doubt he would've spelled a player's name (which, by the way, isn't that hard to spell) 3 different ways. This makes me think he went back and looked over his post multiple times before responding and/or multiple people helped write it. I know one of cabd's scumtells was something like that, so just a thought.

So, now, really important stuff.

jpulice has been hiding. He defended himself against my accusations using overly agressive, unsatisfying posts, and all he did after was post three times; once to say "Kayle leans town", and twice to jump on the inactives who posted in the wrong thread. Although I agree they should post more and something of substance, I think he's taking advantage of the loss of steam on him by hiding behind Vegi and AT. I refuse to let him out of my sight. Oh, and just because people still seem to be ignoring my accusations (for the most part) doesn't make them invalid, so don't try that.

I feel that jpulice has done something that I was accused of at the beginning of the game; opportunistically jumping on other players for shoddy reasons.

Now, if we do end up lynching AT or Vegi today, I would prefer to lynch AT. It seems to me that AT is the one that really attempted to cover up JP from my perspective. That whole argument has definitely cemented my belief that JP is a wolf, and I highly suggest for others here to consider him as a viable lynch target for today.

If I forgot something or screwed something up I'll post later.

 

[PikaJewel]

PikaJewel and JewelQuest, you guys are bringing the sibling rivalry concept into this game a little too much IMO. I'd prefer it if you guys could start hunting for scum instead of pointing at each other and complaining "She's my sister, she must be scum!"

Also, it seems I failed to finish a part of my previous post, so I'll retype it here:

"I was going to make this point when I got back myself, but QFT anyway. For those of you that have read Shakespeare, it is something that happens rather a lot in his books and plays. Someone says something really important, someone else starts a whole string of jokes that are completely irrelevant to the storyline, and the audience forgets about the important plot point. This argument seems to serve that same purpose."

Sorry, I think I'll decide my sis isn't suspicious for now cause I don't have a really good reason.

AT and Vegi are both looking really scummy but vegi is keeping his cool as if he knows he is right, and AbsolTrainer isn't, also the whole I'm not afraid of the wolves thing makes me think, its odd that any player would say that especially if he/she is a wolf. also over agressive ness is not good at all, I personally think that AbsolTrainer deserves my vote so...

Vote: AbsolTrainer.

 

[vegitalian]

Responses (Let me know if I've missed your question/post and I will respond):

Human Destroyer:
"Why did you post a list of town reads and defenses, but not scumreads and attacks?"
Just the sheer amount of work swayed me away from doing that. I think it's relevant information - as are other statistics (i.e. who has placed the first vote, and who has bandwagoned). If someone has the time to do it, I think it would help the town greatly.

ProHawk:
A) You wanted to show everyone that you were putting in work to the game. Scum-Motivation
Yes - I wanted to do something that would contribute to the discussion, because earlier I was being told that I hadn't contributed.
B) You found a connection that you wanted to point out. Town-Motivation
C) You wanted a central location to keep your thoughts. Town-Motivation
D) You wanted to set the stage for a future attack/case. Scum-Motivation
Is this really Scum-Motivation? As townies, we need to use all the information at our disposal to make a case. If we don't, we will lynch ourselves.
E) You wanted to give the wolves a chance to make additional WIFOM. Scum-Motivation
I understand where you're coming from here. I'm not entirely sure posting the list was a good idea at this point - saving it for later would've probably had a better effect. Were I a wolf, I probably would've used that strategy instead of revealing it.

Thunderjolt:
"We cannot pound new guys into the ground, but is vegitalian new?"
Yes I am. This is my first time playing online. The only other time, I was at a camp (around 12 years old). Look through past Werewolves, and if you find me there, you will have a good reason to accuse me of being scum. Also, look at my join date - I've been around a while.

SS7, here are my reads:

Kayle - Has done a lot of jumping around in votes; pressuring everyone, including myself. This has gotten some good intel on those players. In my mind, Kayle is a definite townie.
SS7 - I haven't seen anything scummy in SS7's posts. There are two problems with this: I'm not an expert at identifying scum, and he's a seasoned player (from what I've seen). His hints have been helpful, but he might be fooling us. Leans town.
AbsolTrainer - Has said some really suspicious stuff. Why would he act this arrogant in the first day? Isn't afraid of wolves? I doubt he's stupid enough to say this without being either priest or wolf. Leans scum.
Prohawk - Seems to be seeing only one side of the argument. I'm not sure if you have a history with A/T, but so far you've been clinging to people without considering both sides of an argument. First Kayle, and now A/T. This means you're either a townie that wants allies, a politician, or a wolf trying to get in with the townies. Other than that, I don't really have much on you. Null.
Vablakes - A new player, making awful mistakes like myself. Null.
Diaz - Didn't get ultra-defensive about my vote, and has posted some valid points. Also a good player, so could be either side, but I see him as leaning town.
DragonClyne - Seems fairly reasonable in his posts, and although his pointy finger has been shooting at a bunch of different people, he's not overeager to place votes without more information. Leans town.

I'd like to see some of the inactive players throw posts out there.

I'm going to go through and read up on some other players - most of my time here has been spent defending myself, so I've been mostly engaged in my own discussions.

 

[Pikamaster]

VOTE COUNT:
45 Remaining
23 to lynch

Vegitalian- 7 ( Absoltrainer, Prohawk, Dragonclyne725, Jellyfisher, SMP88, Sheepbro, Waynegg)
Kayle- 1 (Tables)
Prohawk- 3 (Crimsonsky, Luster Purge, Diaz)
Vablakes- 2 (DarthPika, G landers)
Human Destroyer- 1 (Scorri)
Jpulice- 2 (Thunderjolt, Human Destroyer)
StrongRhino- 1 (TheKing)
Tables- 1 (Pokemonfreak5)
Your Face- 1 (Jason)
Pokemonrocks777- 1 (Jpulice)
Absoltrainer- 5 (Kayle, Shinori, Butter nut ninja, JewelQuest, PikaJewel)
PMysterious- 1 (Eclipse)

 

[pokemonfreak5]

Hi all. I'm traveling to the other side of the state over the next few days. It is highly unlikely ill be able to post again in this time.

I've only had time to skim the thread lately. A game this size certainly does move along quickly.
The argument with AT and Vegi I believe started off on valid grounds. However it certainly deteriorated somewhat. I do not think that either of them at present are the best lynch. ATs claim of not being worried about the wolves is a rather common ploy, that can be used for a range of reasons. I do not believe it is an indicator of any guilt or scum-like arrogance.

HD, nice spot there on the spelling. Based on personal meta, AT doesn't seem like the type to let other members of a faction write a post for him, and of he did he definitely copy theri typing, for this very reason. Its worth keeping an eye on this for future posts though, in case anything else crops up.

HoM, please leave any thoughts rondo with the last game behind. It won't help you. Please also research a nit more thoroughly before making blanket statements aboutwol logic that are completely inaccurate.

Pika jewel. Don't just completely back off a case because someone tells you to. That I considered weak playing or flip flopping and is generally considered a scum tell.

First off, Unvote: Table
This doesnt seem to be moving anywhere. And this vote will be wasted if i keep it parked like this. Going off th current game state, on going to put a placeholder vote on
Vote: Vegitalian As I may not be
able to get back on to vote until the end of the day. From what I've seen he seems like the best choic at the moment

 

[vegitalian]

The argument with AT and Vegi I believe started off on valid grounds. However it certainly deteriorated somewhat. I do not think that either of them at present are the best lynch.

Vote: Vegitalian As I may not be
able to get back on to vote until the end of the day. From what I've seen he seems like the best choic at the moment

How am I the best choice, but not the best lynch? Bandwagoning for the sake of getting a lynch, whether it's right or wrong. At least everyone else has had their reasoning. Maybe my pressure vote was randomly right?

Vote: pokemonfreak5

 

[Sheepbro]

I have a dilemma, on the one hand I really dislike the way so many people are simply not playing, on the other hand the thread is moving so fast it's hard to keep up.
Anyway.

I like the way vegitalian kept his cool and didn't rage out, so UNVOTE:Vegitalian.
Other than that, I feel like jpulice and pmysterious need to start defending themselves and generally start saying something. Neither really deserves a vote for now though, so I'm going to sit on it until I get a real scumread on someone
that's significantly better than others. The read, not the player, before someone asks.

 

[DragonClyne725]

How am I the best choice, but not the best lynch? Bandwagoning for the sake of getting a lynch, whether it's right or wrong. At least everyone else has had their reasoning. Maybe my pressure vote was randomly right?

Vote: pokemonfreak5

I saw the remark PF5 made as strange too, but then I realized that the Day ends in 3 days.

Everyone see that last vote count? Here, I'll quote it:

VOTE COUNT:
45 Remaining
23 to lynch

Vegitalian- 7 ( Absoltrainer, Prohawk, Dragonclyne725, Jellyfisher, SMP88, Sheepbro, Waynegg, pokemonfreak5)
Kayle- 1 (Tables)
Prohawk- 3 (Crimsonsky, Luster Purge, Diaz)
Vablakes- 2 (DarthPika, G landers)
Human Destroyer- 1 (Scorri)
Jpulice- 2 (Thunderjolt, Human Destroyer)
StrongRhino- 1 (TheKing)
Pokemonfreak5- 1 (vegitalian)
Your Face- 1 (Jason)
Pokemonrocks777- 1 (Jpulice)
Absoltrainer- 5 (Kayle, Shinori, Butter nut ninja, JewelQuest, PikaJewel)
PMysterious- 1 (Eclipse)

We need to reach 23 to get the lynch. With the number of inactive players we have, we might make it in 3 days, but we need to stop making random votes that are thrown around just for "pressure".

Vegitalian, I really don't see how your vote for PF5 is beneficial to the Town. Your case on him is that he "contradicted" himself in his voting, but stating that he doesn't see either of you as the best lynch, but if he has to vote for one he sees you as the best choice is not really a contradiction at all.

PF5, I still don't like how you're playing. Popping in just to bandwagon earns you a few suspicious points in my book.

JQ
1. As I have said above, I feel that it means that he is a selfish priest, or a wolf.

I think Rhino brought it up first, but it still makes absolutely zero sense to me. First of all, I have yet to hear of a priest in a "balanced" game that is able to protect himself. Secondly, AT said wolves don't scare him, that doesn't automatically mean he's a wolf. It just seems like an excuse to vote for AT.

I highly doubt he would've spelled a player's name (which, by the way, isn't that hard to spell) 3 different ways. This makes me think he went back and looked over his post multiple times before responding and/or multiple people helped write it. I know one of cabd's scumtells was something like that, so just a thought.

Definitely interesting, though I doubt AT would take from another Wolf and post it as his own. It just doesn't fit his style. I feel he likes to make his own arguments and drive them as far as they can go (as seen with Vegi). But definitely something to watch out for.

Seems fairly reasonable in his posts, and although his pointy finger has been shooting at a bunch of different people, he's not overeager to place votes without more information.

Questioning Pointy Finger: vegitalian
That's for not liking my pointy fingers. :thumb:

"E) You wanted to give the wolves a chance to make additional WIFOM. Scum-Motivation"

I understand where you're coming from here. I'm not entirely sure posting the list was a good idea at this point - saving it for later would've probably had a better effect. Were I a wolf, I probably would've used that strategy instead of revealing it.

You're defending yourself against a WIFOM accusation...by using WIFOM. Just seemed weird to me.

 

[PMysterious]

I saw the remark PF5 made as strange too, but then I realized that the Day ends in 3 days.

Everyone see that last vote count? Here, I'll quote it:
We need to reach 23 to get the lynch. With the number of inactive players we have, we might make it in 3 days, but we need to stop making random votes that are thrown around just for "pressure".

Vegitalian, I really don't see how your vote for PF5 is beneficial to the Town. Your case on him is that he "contradicted" himself in his voting, but stating that he doesn't see either of you as the best lynch, but if he has to vote for one he sees you as the best choice is not really a contradiction at all.

PF5, I still don't like how you're playing. Popping in just to bandwagon earns you a few suspicious points in my book.


I think Rhino brought it up first, but it still makes absolutely zero sense to me. First of all, I have yet to hear of a priest in a "balanced" game that is able to protect himself. Secondly, AT said wolves don't scare him, that doesn't automatically mean he's a wolf. It just seems like an excuse to vote for AT.

Definitely interesting, though I doubt AT would take from another Wolf and post it as his own. It just doesn't fit his style. I feel he likes to make his own arguments and drive them as far as they can go (as seen with Vegi). But definitely something to watch out for.

Questioning Pointy Finger: vegitalian
That's for not liking my pointy fingers. :thumb:

You're defending yourself against a WIFOM accusation...by using WIFOM. Just seemed weird to me.

So, he replaced the "Wine in Front of AbsolTrainer" with "Wine in Front of Vege". That's awkward. Anyway, join a wagon and lets get going.

You know, I could vote AT just to turn around lynching non-vets but I don't care about voting, so I'll go ahead and hold my vote.

 

[pokemonplayer101]

I do not care for the wolf/third-party bit at all; my role PM isn't written in a way that tells me whether a third party exists, and discussing whether or not one exists does not find wolves.

And what exactly do you mean by that, eclipse?

I'd recommend for people to go back through that argument between Absol and vegitalian again. I think it is very important to do so.

I'll be honest that I skimmed much of it as it was going down. Long posts are long. But I went back and ISO'd both of them. My quick thoughts before I get to the heart of the ISO:

Vegi ~ You maintained your cool. Though you were intentionally pushing Absol's buttons on more than one occasion to get him to respond emotionally. You didn't insult him, but definitely got under his skin effectively. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Your posts were logical and thought out (minus a triplicate with bad formatting). You responded to Absol and were clear in your wording.

Absol ~ You are extremely aggressive. This is not a bad thing. Sometimes people need a lot of pressure before they crack. But, you are also very emotional and argumentative for no good reason. Vegi's analysis of your post was 1) His interpretation of your actions to Vablakes, and 2) Quite accurate based on the wording you provided in your post. I've read those posts. You claiming he is putting words in your mouth is false. By saying that the attack on Vablakes was unfounded, you are defending him whether you planned for it or not.


Lets take me for example, since we both are in a similar boat. I am claimed by Vegi to have "defended" Vablakes. The thing I said about him before Vegi's post was "I am leaning newbtown." This is not a defense in any sense of the word. This is my gut feeling based on the way Vablakes posted, what he said, and his reasoning. But, in my read of "newbtown" I "defended him," even though no such post existed. Do you see me all up in arms about Vablakes? No. I find his post to be perfectly acceptable and even quite useful, even though he drastically overstates my opinion of Vablakes. Analysis of links can be an adequate adjunct to other scumtells in finding wolves. However your explosive response to Vegi's post was:

1. Unnecessary (since his analysis was correct)
2. Unnecessary (since he already stated that it was his interpretation of other's posts)
3. Unnecessary (since it could have been logged for later if you really felt that he was misrepresenting your case, a GREAT read for later on in the game, when you can implicate more than one scum based on those type of misrepresentations)
4. Unnecessary (since your response could have been condensed, without the emotion/vitriol, and more analytic).

Now, to the full ISO (I wish there was a way to condense this to make it more easily read... :frown: )

Summarization of key points in normal text, "quotes in quotation marks," (my thoughts in parenthesis)

Vegi
253 Sits on fence while posting helful hints, Says posting often helps wolves too, not just town
283 Votes daiz (RVS?) and "defends" me
375 pokes pf5, talks about tables' thoughts. claims townie
384 posts "linking post," (Doesn't uncover roles, but alignment rather) makes a few assumptions, does not link posts
387 justification for absol read
391 "my impressions from posts" subtle almost threat, justification has "ideas that aren't really accurate
411 goes at absol directly, previous post explanation. is not emotional, but is poking absol. smug and confident.
419 again justification, takes responsibility. tldr to end it
423 takes pressure very well. unvotes his rvs, doesn't vote. (null read). is pointing out his bandwagon
427 smug again, is careful to not claim absol wolf in omgus, throws a little wifom
430 explanation/fence sit
434 wifoms a bit
439 good response
444 pokes that absol is tunneling
448 fence sits, doesn't think his wagon has wolves on it.
450 again points the tunneling. justification
453 tunnel more absol
455 pokes more, still un-pressured
517 response to absol pretty truthful and logical


Absoltrainer
215 Defends Vablakes, goes after HD for adequate reasons
309 tries to find inconsistency in vablakes
320 goes for vablakes, voting for him.
388 jumps down vegi's throat for the 'defends vablakes' notation
405 very aggressive to vegi, semi isos him
407 calls out the threat
416 again calls the support "false" very aggressive/emotional
424 calls the bandwagon analysis distraction
429 misconstrues the term initial post, (due to non-existent definition from Vegi)
433 doesn't fear wolves uses linking logic to go after vablakes calls "scummy=wolf automatically"
436 says linking logic (that vegi posts) means we should go after vablakes if vegi flips wolf
443 says that vegi needs to focus on today, calls vegi wolf, doesn't fear wolves
446 still very aggressive
449 AGAIN with linking logic. Absol, STAHP. claims vegi=smear claims vegi was gonna use vablakes scumbus to go after him. (there were 4 other people with vablakes)
451 summarizes actions
454 military analogy because. claims victory
456 come at me bro (no link necessary)
458 still aggressive, claims vegi lies, smears, and takes out of context, says this was not useless, but fun
461 starts to come down off the high. but claims he hasn't stopped anyone from talking
463 again says its fun to troll, says he will only target new scum targets after one is dead (this is not an RPG, you cannot deal with DPS like that)
465 "I never said that."
468 calls out the ~insults to him, blames other people for not talking when he was
470 "hardly arguing for the sake of arguing" (thats what it seems like to me...)
480 legit discussion with kayle about voting record and askes questions
487 defines his strategy.(middle of post) very keen on not having words put in his mouth. calls out kayle on vote-swapping, claims it not his fault that people stopped talking, doesn't fear wolves
492 read my posts pl0x. says he has multiple wolves in his pocket, says he is not pressured



Now, what do I gain from these ISOs?

1) Vegi made a post that could be helpful down the road. He made some assumptions/analysis of players posts and stated his thoughts on their posts, how they were "aligning themselves" to other players.
2) Absol completely over-reacts due to his placement. I feel that Vegi was 1) honest in his interpretation and 2) correct in his placment of Absol in the "defends Vablakes, then votes for him" notation. This is logical and reasonable. Absol uses this as leverage to claim, sequentially that Vegi is putting words in his mouth and a wolf.
3) Vegi, completely unperturbed, pokes Absol numerous times about his posts.
4) Absol continues his aggressive posting against vegitalian, almost blind at this point to any other issue.
5) Conversation in the thread stops while this argument goes down.
6) Absol is called a troll-child and is told to back off. (coincidentally he admits to having fun trolling vegitalian).
7) The heat comes down and we all realize that about a ~ day was wasted on that superficially-pointless argument.
8) Absol is accused of stopping conversation, which he denies. However both he and Vegi DID stop conversation on other topics while the argument was under way.
9) We are now back to logical examination, and I feel that we should all go back and conduct our own ISO's on the situation to garner a better understanding of the argument and the key players.


Thus: Vegitalian.
1) If you are going to poke for responses, you need to get some concrete data out of them. Intentionally riling Absoltrainer's emotions for no reason is bad.
2) Your argument is a day that cannot be recovered. Thus, make the best of it and do some ISOs of players responding to the argument and give us some reads.
3) Why the threat of "Its probably not a good idea?"
4) You throw WIFOM into the argument, stating all these hypothetical scenarios where players could or could not be wolves. That itself at this point is WIFOM/scummy, along with some of your other statements "posting a lot helps the wolves," etc.
5) You need to post some reads.

Absol.
1) Why were you so vehement about denying something that 1) Was Vegi's opinion of the post, and 2) Something that was accurate?
2) Why all of the aggression and emotion?
3) You need to go back and ISO player's responses to your argument and post your reads.
4) Your continued claims of "I'm not afraid of wolves" is interesting, in a vein similar to Crimsonsky. What is its purpose in your posts at all, other than to claim you cannot die to wolves OR are a wolf? If you had a role that nullified wolf kills against you, you shouldn't have said anything. If the wolves believe your claim then they now won't "waste" a role that they might have had you not said anything.



At this point, I'm going to lay this information out there and let you all read it for yourself. Make your own analysis, don't just trust mine. I'm glad I did.

Wow, epic post, SS7. I don't like how you didn't vote, but still, I love the overall post and the time and evidence you put into it.

VOTE: Absoltrainer


I'm actually liking Vegitalian right now. I don't think I'd like to see him get lynched this game day.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Peace.

 

[ProHawk]

ProHawk:
A) You wanted to show everyone that you were putting in work to the game. Scum-Motivation
Yes - I wanted to do something that would contribute to the discussion, because earlier I was being told that I hadn't contributed.
B) You found a connection that you wanted to point out. Town-Motivation
C) You wanted a central location to keep your thoughts. Town-Motivation
D) You wanted to set the stage for a future attack/case. Scum-Motivation
Is this really Scum-Motivation? As townies, we need to use all the information at our disposal to make a case. If we don't, we will lynch ourselves.
E) You wanted to give the wolves a chance to make additional WIFOM. Scum-Motivation
I understand where you're coming from here. I'm not entirely sure posting the list was a good idea at this point - saving it for later would've probably had a better effect. Were I a wolf, I probably would've used that strategy instead of revealing it.

Prohawk - Seems to be seeing only one side of the argument. I'm not sure if you have a history with A/T, but so far you've been clinging to people without considering both sides of an argument. First Kayle, and now A/T. This means you're either a townie that wants allies, a politician, or a wolf trying to get in with the townies. Other than that, I don't really have much on you. Null.

Just want to make one thing clear. If I didn't care about the other side of the argument, I wouldn't be asking questions for clarification. If you can convince me that you are town, or that I am wrong, I am more than willing to change my vote. I list my argument as I see it, this is how I hunt.

Your point to A changes the tone of your post dramatically. I don't recall anyone asking you to contribute more, can you quote or link that post please?

I agree with your response to D in that we need to use correct information at our disposal. You also seem to agree with me that your post could have been better served until we started seeing flips happen.

I notice that you forgot a few of my questions and points, so I will reiterate.

Why was I left out of your list as defending Vablakes?

Why did you say that Absol alleviated suspicion and that several people voted for him when those statements lack evidence to back them up?

From my research Vablakes only recieved one vote for his "role-claim".

 

[thunderjolt]

So, he replaced the "Wine in Front of AbsolTrainer" with "Wine in Front of Vege". That's awkward. Anyway, join a wagon and lets get going.

You know, I could vote AT just to turn around lynching non-vets but I don't care about voting, so I'll go ahead and hold my vote.

I think I’ve now grasped the concept that this is just your playstyle. You are a good player on the inside, but you post such horridly anti-town stuff, that no one listens to you when you do have a good idea. Please do not start this again; we do not need another game with 20 pages of picking on you.

...........
I'd just like to point out that Absoltrainer spelled Vablakes 3 different ways........... [maybe] multiple people helped write it. I know one of cabd's scumtells was something like that,...............
So, now, really important stuff.
jpulice has been hiding. He defended himself against my accusations using overly agressive, unsatisfying posts, and all he did after was post three times;................................

I clipped out the stuff I wanted to post on. I was thinking that as well about AT, but then I also started to think that lots of his posts were one right after the other. So if he did get some help on some of his posts, they were all online at that particular time; and they did it relatively fast.
About JP—Yes, he really does seem to be hiding and avoiding. I’m hoping that he is seeing this in between all the walls of posts. I still haven’t seen a response to my question; although it was not an important question, but questions nonetheless. I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, like I usually do at this stage of the game; but my vote stands until I see more posts on/by Vegi and others.

 

[Kayle]

@DC: Normally I would disagree with you, but with the huge amount of inactivity we have so far, I think you've got a point. We need to start really choosing our lynch options now and stop using votes to pressure for info. It's going to take a stretch to get anybody into actual lynching range.

As it stands, it sounds like the primary candidates are AT and Vegitalian. If you disagree and/or want to add anyone else, now is the time to say so.

Otherwise, if your vote is on someone other than those two, you need to switch it ASAP or explain why you're holding out your vote. PMysterious' "I don't feel like it" is absolutely not good enough. *jabs PM with a pointy stick.*

 

[jpulice]

I don't have much time tonight so I'm not going to go grab quotes. If I paraphase incorrectly please let me know:

to whoever said AT is scummy becasue he's not afraid of wolves, REALLY? How is this a scum / indy tell. I'm not afraid either, and I know my townie alignment. I see him working his scum read and willing to passionately commit to it. Again I find this as a town tell, specifically on day one.

@AT, I didn't find Veg's post where he lined out everyone's errr.... defense posts, scummy either. In fact I think it was effort put forth in attempts to bring some sort of logic to the game.

For both player I think they lean town, and the secondary support cast out are wolves stoking the fire. I ask someone to gather these names who have voted them and scrutinize this list. I would suspect multiple wolves on both sides of this debate.

@Thunderjolt, i don't know if i did or didn't answer you. I was reading you for paranoia. this is a subtle town tell since the person doing it doesn't know whats going on. There were hint of it in your first post towards me however, I felt the other posts were more forced. While this isn't a scum tell, I need to watch you closer this game.

@Kayle. I believe you called me out for using harsh and aggressive posting to stoke your emotions, which was one of your bigger pushes against me. However, you used the same exact tactic on AT when you called him a troll. I'm not really sure how I'm scum for this play and you are not. pot/kettle..... you get the drift. I still think you are town.

@Glaceon. Thanks for the insight. I actually agree with your thoughts on Pikajewel at this point. I think she is town and getting her footing in this game, by challenging her sis. I didn't want to provide my insight until you answered because I wanted your opinion first.

@H-D. I've answered your questions, and quite honestly I see there is nothing to defend. How many games have you played? For some reason I think it only one or two (on another site). Please confirm. Not wanting to let me slide into the background is good when a raging debate is going on. However, you seem to be focus on me and a few others. Why not everyone else. You call me out for trying to push some inactives into play. Why is it ok to allow inactives a free pass? How does this help find wolves? Ummm I think there was something else.... but I'll need to re-read again later. Oh yeah....

Additionally I think your reasoning on AT/Veg debate was created to distract from me falling under a few peoples suspicions to poor. I believe at the time Vablakes had the leading wagon. You, Kayle, and thunderjolt had voted yet there was no momentum to this wagon. I don't recall anyone else acknowledging there was anything to look at. If I were scum and going down on D1 why on earth would AT or Veg create this whole debate to "save" me. Good scum would buss hard, for town cred, and stay out of the lime light. Again I'm not sure I follow your logic.

@Sheebro, if you think I need to defend myself than ask me some questions. I find your last post very odd in deed. Please explain what I or PM needs to defend and why we are scummy. I think veg is loosing steam so you unvoted him, and cast suspicions to people who have taken some heat. Yet you don't have any more thoughts on the subject. Also why didn't you vote either one of us for pressure. I find this entire post scummy. I'll go back and re-read you, since I don't recall any real input from you.

@Eclipe. I see your thoughts on PM. I'm dont find his request for a policy lynch scummy. I find it null. The fact he pushed this stance shows me a few things about PM in this game. He's not going to be pushed around, and he's really learning from his past games.

@PM you go from a PL to a vote on AT. Why? I find the vote just lazy. If anything I will have to agree with Eclipse and give you a -1 for this.

@PP101, Same goes for you. Why does SS7 doing a lot of work earn your vote to AT? I find this rather interesting as well. -1 for you too.

That's all for now.

 

[Human Destroyer]

Would like to lynch JP if I can get the support for it. I don't think I need to repost my reasons.

If, by the deadline (well,somewhat before it) I can't manage to get that support, my vote will be AT.

 

[jpulice]

So you are cementing your vote with 3 days left H-D to either me or AT? I find this odd.

I will ask you here, how many games have your played? ...since you might have missed it in my previous post.