Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[Absoltrainer]

- Do the Kayle/vegitalian interactions read like bussing to you?

Hmmm, this is a tough call. Not bussing in the traditional sense. What I saw rather was vegitalian distancing himself from Kayle early on seemingly with no reason at all (see my ginormous post for details on this.) He does this immediately after Kayle jumps on the bandwagon for him, and accusing Kayle of being in cahoots with Prohawk. Four posts later, he removes Kayle of any and all suspicious, again for seemingly no reason at all. What really baffles me is why Kayle goes out of his way to intercept my fight with vegitalian and proceeds to, in a very risky move, lead a campaign against me based on nothing more than my tone/manner in which I attacked vegitalian. That’s a huge risk for Day 1, and seeing that how at the time, Kayle had absolutely nothing to gain from involving himself the way he did, it comes up odd. He didn’t argue the point of vegitalian, he even admitted to not having a case for vegitalian’s innocence, instead he went directly for me. There’s no reward for that if he and vegitalian had no connection I think.

@vegitalian: Please see jellyfisher’s post. It sums up my thoughts in response to you.

@AT
In the beginning of your long post, you seem to be saying that you played intentionally poorly to get players to come after you. Digging your own grave. But when people do go after you, it seems like you're of the mindset "Aha! Now I've got you! You fell for my trap!". What I see is players going after someone who is playing poorly/potentially scummy. Isn't that what they are supposed to be doing? Just because you encouraged players to come after you, and they did, doesn't make them scum. Why should you being able to bait criticism be used as evidense against people who took the bait? (This is an honest question, please explain.)
Another question: In the event that Vegitalian flips town, how should we proceed? Do you think that considering lynching you would be a valid response to that situation?

1.) I was looking for certain reactions Diaz. As I pointed out, it was Kayle’s reaction that stood out based on the basis and situation of his attack. Perhaps I was a little unclear. When I say “digging my own grave” I mean, I was intentionally making it easy for a scum to take advantage of the situation. As I said in my big post and in response to Eclipse above, it depended on how the person bit the bait. Several people have voted for me, and several went after be, but none of them have a case. Only one person truly pushed this case-less accusation, he was the one who bit the bait the way I was looking for, Kayle
2.) I will deal and acknowledge that situation should it happen. I am in the upmost confidence that it will not, but should it occur, I still believe the other two suspects Vablakes, and Kayle still be investigated. While their scumminess would be less strong by such a flip, their actions and reactions still warrant a seer/detective investigation during the night, or further questioning during the next game day.

We are on a new page, so anyone who has NOT seen my giant post, PLEASE READ IT:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2364401&postcount=570

 

[Sheepbro]

Honestly, I was very annoyed at the whole AT vs vegi discussion, but I'm not sure if I want to vote for either.

@eclipse, yes, if I would die I'd not be able to be of use, but with 45 players I don't think I'll end up dead at the end of Day 1 or during Night 1. Especially considering I'm a new player I don't think the wolves would target me in Night 1 (inb4 they prove me wrong) because there's a lot more dangerous targets in the town. And considering I'm not a wolf I doubt I'll come across scummily enough to warrant a lynch.

 

[SMP88]

@Sheepbro: Why don't you think the wolves would target a new player on N1?

@Absoltrainer: I've read/skimmed through your big post (and I'll be reading through it again when I get a good chunk of time) and agree with most of your arguments on vegi and Kayle. One thing though is why did you feel like stating that you aren't afraid of the wolves? I understand that you were trying to get a response out of people, but why use something that should get a standard response out of most players. If you say you aren't afraid of the wolves the standard assumption is that you're either bulletproof (or a varient of) or a wolf yourself. The only other real option is that you're lying, which is a standard scum tell itself. I'm just not sure exactly what responses you were looking for in that.

 

[Sheepbro]

@Sheepbro: Why don't you think the wolves would target a new player on N1?

If I were a wolf I would target people that are a threat or likely to be a threat on night 1, because there's not a *lot* to read from a N1 wolfkill, so that makes it easier to do. So I would try to go for players that are helping town a lot or players that will likely help the town a lot (ie good players). Because new players are not known to be good, as long as they're not currently helping the town a lot I wouldn't expect wolves to kill them. Of course I'm not saying this will always happen, but with 45 players and a lot of people that could potentially be dangerous to wolves, I doubt they'd go for someone who is in his first game and has not been amazingly active in the discussion with reads just yet.

 

[Absoltrainer]

@Sheepbro: Why don't you think the wolves would target a new player on N1?

@Absoltrainer: I've read/skimmed through your big post (and I'll be reading through it again when I get a good chunk of time) and agree with most of your arguments on vegi and Kayle. One thing though is why did you feel like stating that you aren't afraid of the wolves? I understand that you were trying to get a response out of people, but why use something that should get a standard response out of most players. If you say you aren't afraid of the wolves the standard assumption is that you're either bulletproof (or a varient of) or a wolf yourself. The only other real option is that you're lying, which is a standard scum tell itself. I'm just not sure exactly what responses you were looking for in that.

The particular choice of words were chosen because they were sure to get a wolf. If a wolf thinks they might not be able to hurt me at night, they know they are going to have to lynch me during the day. If I give them an opening, say by setting myself up for failure based on the "over agressive stlye" on which I pursue a case, they will be sure to jump at it. Kayle did exactly that, while vegitalian consistently role-fished for what I meant by that phrase. You are correct, there is a standard response players will give to that statement, but there is also a sublte one that wolves will jump at. Not all wolves mind you. It was a bit of a gambit, but I beleive it wotked out well enough.

 

[scorri]

Ok, scorri is going to switch to vegi because she thinks he is the best lynch target out of the ones that she sees possibly getting lynched this phase.

UNVOTE:HUMAN DESTROYER
VOTE: VEGITALIAN

 

[JewelQuest]

.....That was a biiig post. I'll probably have to re-read it more than two times in order to get the full jest.

First I am going to reply to the posts that I quoted before I saw that gigantic thing. And I am going to answer them as if AT hasn't posted that yet.

@jewelquest, NEITHER DO I

Here's the thing. They will decide to kill whomever they want. I can only play and control my game. After playing several games, I've come to lean this. Vanilla, PR, or Indy.... If you play with fear I think you play to lose.

I do not mean to that we should play in fear at all. I am not afraid of the wolves either, they will kill who they decide to kill and living in fear of them is not a good option.

Doesn't having nothing to fear from the wolves = not being afraid of the wolves? I'm sorry, but I really don't see your point.

Usually when you when you say that you are not afraid of something, its as simple as that: You aren't afraid of them. But when you say that you 'have nothing to fear' that usually means that they can not do anything from them.

Now, moving on to AT's post.

Ok, so JewelQuest is voting for me because I am a good player and a veteran and if I am a wolf that is dangerous, yet if I am a townies I should be kept around. That is here entire case…she even brings up a PAST game where I was a bad guy to support this.

I am not voting for you because you are a good player and a veteran, besides the fact that you will be a dangerous foe if you are a wolf. And what is wrong with bringing up a past game? The point I made from that is that you, if you are a wolf, will put a lot of time and effort into this in order to make yourself seem like a townie. Which means that we can't entirely trust you.

I'd like to make my stance on the matter clear: I do not trust AT. In Werewolf XVI(And yes, I am bringing up a past game again, AT) the town was almost led astray by his well-thought-out lies, and I am not going to be fooled again. It is hard to determine whether or not he is a hard-working townie or a smart wolf, but I am inclined to believe the latter.

 

[Absoltrainer]

I am not voting for you because you are a good player and a veteran, besides the fact that you will be a dangerous foe if you are a wolf. And what is wrong with bringing up a past game? The point I made from that is that you, if you are a wolf, will put a lot of time and effort into this in order to make yourself seem like a townie. Which means that we can't entirely trust you.

I'd like to make my stance on the matter clear: I do not trust AT. In Werewolf XVI(And yes, I am bringing up a past game again, AT) the town was almost led astray by his well-thought-out lies, and I am not going to be fooled again. It is hard to determine whether or not he is a hard-working townie or a smart wolf, but I am inclined to believe the latter.

Why are you voting for me then? The only reasons you posted were:
-In the past I was a dangerous bad guy
-I am putting effort into my posts...

Am I missing something? You have no good reason except your own paranoia based on nothing except PAST games..... No good reason at all to suspect me THIS game...

 

[JewelQuest]

Why are you voting for me then? The only reasons you posted were:
-In the past I was a dangerous bad guy
Yes, you we're, I don't think it is bad to go to past games for details
-I am putting effort into my posts...
No, I think that putting effort into your posts is a good thing(Though it does make it quiet hard to read the thread). My thoughts are that whether you are town or wolf, you are going to put effort in your posts, a lot of effort, making it hard to figure out what side you are on.

Am I missing something? You have no good reason except your own paranoia based on nothing except PAST games..... No good reason at all to suspect me THIS game...

I find it a good enough reason. And it isn't just 'my own paranoia'. We have found in the past that you are hard to trust, and so I don't trust you. I might eventually find reason to trust you, but the thing is, I don't trust you. I don't trust any of the players in this game, in fact, until they are proven guilty or not guilty.

I believe you are a wolf, and there is nothing you can say to change my mind at this time.

 

[Glaceon]

Why are you voting for me then? The only reasons you posted were:
-In the past I was a dangerous bad guy
-I am putting effort into my posts...

Am I missing something? You have no good reason except your own paranoia based on nothing except PAST games..... No good reason at all to suspect me THIS game...

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana


I'd say past games can provide good bases for comparison. (generally)

Just so I know, which game are we talking about here? xD.

 

[JewelQuest]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana


I'd say past games can provide good bases for comparison. (generally)

Just so I know, which game are we talking about here? xD.

Exactly. And WereWolf XVI.

 

[Absoltrainer]

I find it a good enough reason. And it isn't just 'my own paranoia'. We have found in the past that you are hard to trust, and so I don't trust you. I might eventually find reason to trust you, but the thing is, I don't trust you. I don't trust any of the players in this game, in fact, until they are proven guilty or not guilty.

I believe you are a wolf, and there is nothing you can say to change my mind at this time.

Your logic:
Absol was a bad guy in the past
thus
Absol must be a bad guy again

That is your entire argument. So find me evidence in THIS game that incriminates me.

 

[scorri]

scorri doesn't agree with the idea that lynching a person because they're a good player who has been scum in the past is a good idea. scorri views it as they are a good player. scorri believes we should keep good players around unless there's a solid reason *this game* to lynch them.

 

[JewelQuest]

Your logic:
Absol was a bad guy in the past
thus
Absol must be a bad guy again

That is your entire argument. So find me evidence in THIS game that incriminates me.

If you want to believe that is my logic, go ahead.

And on to your next challenge:

You say that you had a plan, and I suppose that you did. However, I find that your plan is more incriminating than clearing. It is possible that you were saying the whole 'I fear nothing from the wolves' for the sake of your plan, but I find it unlikely that there isn't a grain of truth in it.
I find also your fishing for emotional responses rather suspicious. I can see why you would want to get people to talk, but acting like a bully like that is not the way to do it. Wolves bully, not townies.

 

[Absoltrainer]

If you want to believe that is my logic, go ahead.

And on to your next challenge:

You say that you had a plan, and I suppose that you did. However, I find that your plan is more incriminating than clearing. It is possible that you were saying the whole 'I fear nothing from the wolves' for the sake of your plan, but I find it unlikely that there isn't a grain of truth in it.
I find also your fishing for emotional responses rather suspicious. I can see why you would want to get people to talk, but acting like a bully like that is not the way to do it. Wolves bully, not townies.

Prove it please....evidence to back up what you claim.

 

[JewelQuest]

Prove it please....evidence to back up what you claim.

It'll take some time to get the 'evidence' that you want, and I have to get off the computer at the moment, so I'll have to finish this later.

 

[Diaz]

AT you realize that you've put us in a position where we can only hope to lynch either you or vegitalian, right? You like to say you haven't shut down other discussion, but you really have. I'd really like some alternative option, because I'm not convinced either of you is a wolf. I'm not looking to play a game where you pull this every day, because I don't think that is a game the town can win.

Do you understand that you've hurt the town arguing in such a way that all other discussion is lost? I would have liked to dive deeper into the Tables controversy, or that horrible post that PM made, or scorri, and how someone jumped in and said they thought she wasn't faking for some undisclosed reason, and even spending more time prodding inactives would have been nice. How sure are you that vegitalian is scum? Enough to dominate this discussion like you have? I don't think that is reasonable on day 1.

I don't trust you, and you haven't given me a reason to. I'm going to vote for you, and I hope others do as well. I think it is in the town's best interest not to have you alive. In the event that you do flip town, I will push the agenda you've laid out. You made this game "him or me" with vegitalian, and his position seems more reasonable to me. I can read and think. You did defend Vablakes. For you to blow up like you did was unreasonable. Even when you came forward to claim that you had been trolling people (not convinced I believe that), you maintained that you hadn't defended Vablakes. You said that someone else's attack on him was unfounded. Whether it was your intention or not, that is defending someone. Just saying that someone is twisting your words, doesn't mean that they are.

You made a mistake with the mega-super-plan of yours, and I honestly hope you learn from it.

Unvote Prohawk
Vote AbsolTrainer

I'm not happy about this one. I hope it works out.

 

[scorri]

scorri would like to point out that there is still time left in the day phase. Two whole days in fact. If Diaz wants to talk about other things, he has that ability. scorri would be interested to see what else he has to say.

 

[Human Destroyer]

Okay, I'm not in the mood to really respond to JP for a few different reasons, none of them having to do with this game and it's personal so please don't ask.

However, something a little less emotionally taxing (at least for me): an ISO of StrongRhino.

We'll go by posts after role confirmation for obvious reasons.

Post #1: Complains that I was hypocritical, does a word nitpick, and thinks one of my tips is flat-out wrong (which it probably was looking back on it), but then uses it as an excuse to bandwagon.

Post #2: Admits that he mentioned the hypocrisy was out of annoyance, but then says the nitpick and the "wrong" tip are still scummy to him, even though there are plenty of ways to find scum other than that. Also says that bandwagoning is going to be necessary for the lynch.

Post #3: Says there are more suspicious things, so unvotes me...then doesn't vote anyone new? Huh? This move is so inconsistent, where he literally jumped on the opportunity to bandwagon earlier, now he just lays back, and says "Yeah, these guys are suspicious" while still keeping his unbolded vote on me.

Post #4: Pretty much restates what everyone else said and says that Vablakes is less suspicious than before.

Post #5: Makes an excuse for why he hasn't been posting, goes on to say AT is suspicious for one line of his whole post, and then simply restates his FoSes. However, there are a couple of things weird with this FoS list:

-SS7 somehow appeared on there without any sort of reasoning.
-Vablakes is still on there even though StrongRhino had said he found him less suspicious.
-All the inactives he said he was suspicious of? Nowhere to be found.

Post #6: FoSing me for probably the second-dumbest reason in the whole thread. (For the first, see Post #2 of his).

All in all, I think StrongRhino has been playing very inconsistently-except for one thing. Me. He implicates me in every single post he's made (except for Post #4). Pretty much, look at all of Posts #1 and #2, as well as the following quotes:

Anyway, there seems to be more sucpicious stuff going on, so Unvote: Human Destroyer
FoS: Human Destroyer. My and the rest of the towns points still stand

FoS:
Absol Trainer
Vablakes
Human Destroyer
Sandslash7

I feel like Human Destroyer should be added to that list. Learning he supposedly played one town game, and knows enough to make that huge posts to help beginners (or look like he is helping beginners).

The problem I have with it is not that he suspects me; I'm absolutely okay with that, even if I feel I have defended myself adequately. My problem is that my FoS has been the only consistent part of his play.

I'd also like to say something; notice how the case of the people who are voting me is that I tried to gain "early town cred" by helping out newer players. How is trying to help out new players, who may or may not know about the compendium, a scummy thing? Is it just some lack of understanding I have here? Are you guys seeing something I'm not?

Also, I no longer think Absoltrainer to be scummy. He laid his plan out for us, explained everything he did, and I honestly don't think a wolf would have been that transparent. That also means he wasn't bussing jpulice, which means that is no longer a strike against JP.

QUICK READ SUMMARY: (Green is Town, Red is Scum, ? means shaky, order is strongest to weakest)

DragonClyne725
Kayle
Crimsonsky (I still believe that retaliator claim, just saying)
thunderjolt
Jellyfisher
Absoltrainer?
Scorri?

jpulice (Overagressive and condescending responses, when questioned hid behind the Vegi and AT argument)
StrongRhino (Most inconsistent player in the whole game, randomly pops things out that he never explains and has not stated a single good reason for voting anyone he's FoSed.)

Other Stuff:

Glaceon, get back here and post more. Heck, all inactives, get back here and post. KK in particular, I'd like to see some posts from you (although, as I understand it, he's been away for finals, so that would explain his inactivity and has me less suspicious of him)

Diaz, I like that point you made; I find that when other lynch targets were brought up, they were either shot down or ignored completely.

I know I forgot stuff, I just don't know what I forgot. Eh, it'll come to me later.

 

[Glaceon]

I think Jewelquest's point is not that you were a wolf before so you are no (if so :/ ), but you are playing similarly.

However, I don't necessarily agree.