Dr. Mason
New Member
Meh we've tried but can't find a store that will let us.
WotC vs PUI's running of the Pokemon TCG
- Thread starter Dr. Mason
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Meh we've tried but can't find a store that will let us.
ShadowCard
Active Member
He said he doesn't have a car. He may not be able to arrange any transportation to support running a league.
Babies should so be brought back. They'd balance the awesome power of Pokemon ex and Lv X.
Your league is Modified format? My leagues are Unlimited. Oh, my Neo Genesis Cleffa, how I've missed you :redface:. A lot of the broken stuff hasn't yet been discovered
. There's only 3 cards that I'm really afraid of seeing an abundance of in Unlimited. Despite that, most of us play Modified anyway to practice for tournaments.Why would Elm be a Supporter? It takes out your ability to use any trainers after you use it. Making it a Supporter would make it broken.
ShawofMordor
New Member
nintendo is just so much better than wotc was i dont even wanna waste my time making it into a long arguement
One thing I've always liked about WOTC is their credibility at running major tournaments, with Magic and the DCI and all.
But despite my (and a lot of other peoples') earlier concerns, PUI has shown themselves very capable of running organized play.
And WOTC did NOTHING like PUI is doing with the scholarships and trips.
We might like to complain about Worlds and the lack of invites, but don't forget how tough it was to make it into Worlds 2002 under WOTC. The only way was to win Gym Challenge or Stadium Challenge (remember that WOTC had a one-and-done policy on these?) and the Grinder only took what, the top 4?
Worlds this year will probably have more players (although fewer from the US, obviously) than Worlds 2002 did. Talk about exclusive.
But back on topic, as much as I enjoyed the game under WOTC (probably because it was still in the "fad" phase), PUI has really put a lot of resources behind it (do the math on all the scholarships, trips, and Nationals money) and shown real commitment to bringing it back. And it's back.
But despite my (and a lot of other peoples') earlier concerns, PUI has shown themselves very capable of running organized play.
And WOTC did NOTHING like PUI is doing with the scholarships and trips.
We might like to complain about Worlds and the lack of invites, but don't forget how tough it was to make it into Worlds 2002 under WOTC. The only way was to win Gym Challenge or Stadium Challenge (remember that WOTC had a one-and-done policy on these?) and the Grinder only took what, the top 4?
Worlds this year will probably have more players (although fewer from the US, obviously) than Worlds 2002 did. Talk about exclusive.
But back on topic, as much as I enjoyed the game under WOTC (probably because it was still in the "fad" phase), PUI has really put a lot of resources behind it (do the math on all the scholarships, trips, and Nationals money) and shown real commitment to bringing it back. And it's back.
Professor Dav
Master Trainer
I couldn't agree with you more. The DCI is a very expereinced, and well run sanctioning body, and while I'm sure some people have criticisms of the DCI, I'd be hard pressed to say they really do anything poorly. They know thier market, they know thier system, heck, they pretty much invented Organized Play for this industry.
And, as an FYI for those who don't know, I worked for WotC for six years, three of which I was a part of the DCI. Liesik also worked for the DCI for about 2 or 3 years. So, a good deal of the experience and knowledge that we have, that has been applied to POP, was learned while we were there.
Prof. Dave
meganium45
Active Member
The Gorn...you HAVE to be kidding!
The large Pokemon events run by WOTC that I was a part of were a joke from a judging perspective.
The judges that they had, even at some of their major events, were some of the shoddiest judges I had EVER seen!
The Central Stadium Challenge had a younger division mostly full of judges who did not even understand the cards they were judging.
There was a gym challenge in Indiana which was run to the point of corruption in my opinion under WOTC.
I am GLAD not to see any of the judges or faces I remember from back then, and dealt with back then.
I know there are members of TC who made it across the divide from the WOTC days to the PUI days, and even I was a WOTC TO at the end...
But I will tell you one thing for absolute certain in my opinion: PUI cares MUCH more about the integrity of its events in the younger divisions then I ever felt WOTC did. Maybe it is "sour grapes" from being on the short end of the WOTC judging stick, but the judging under WOTC infuriated me to the point I knew I needed to step in and run events, or we were getting out of the game.
I am glad we are not out of the game.
You want to see love, and people who appreciate people giving to the game, look at the Nationals Staff. I think PUI has done a GREAT job of rewarding people who give to the game on a consistant basis. I am sure they do not reward EVERYONE who gives to the game, but in my opinion they have done a great job of rewarding numerous people and letting them know they are important.
I say this NOT being a member of the Nationals Staff!
From an organizer's perspective Dav, Pete and Mike are all very accessable by phone and e-mail when we have the question that just needs answering. They may not go public chat and "Maple Bar" humor all the time with you all, but they are always listening.
My opinion...I guess I am just a company man.
Vince
The large Pokemon events run by WOTC that I was a part of were a joke from a judging perspective.
The judges that they had, even at some of their major events, were some of the shoddiest judges I had EVER seen!
The Central Stadium Challenge had a younger division mostly full of judges who did not even understand the cards they were judging.
There was a gym challenge in Indiana which was run to the point of corruption in my opinion under WOTC.
I am GLAD not to see any of the judges or faces I remember from back then, and dealt with back then.
I know there are members of TC who made it across the divide from the WOTC days to the PUI days, and even I was a WOTC TO at the end...
But I will tell you one thing for absolute certain in my opinion: PUI cares MUCH more about the integrity of its events in the younger divisions then I ever felt WOTC did. Maybe it is "sour grapes" from being on the short end of the WOTC judging stick, but the judging under WOTC infuriated me to the point I knew I needed to step in and run events, or we were getting out of the game.
I am glad we are not out of the game.
You want to see love, and people who appreciate people giving to the game, look at the Nationals Staff. I think PUI has done a GREAT job of rewarding people who give to the game on a consistant basis. I am sure they do not reward EVERYONE who gives to the game, but in my opinion they have done a great job of rewarding numerous people and letting them know they are important.
I say this NOT being a member of the Nationals Staff!
From an organizer's perspective Dav, Pete and Mike are all very accessable by phone and e-mail when we have the question that just needs answering. They may not go public chat and "Maple Bar" humor all the time with you all, but they are always listening.
My opinion...I guess I am just a company man.
Vince
Professor Elm
Active Member
He said he doesn't have a car. He may not be able to arrange any transportation to support running a league.
Babies should so be brought back. They'd balance the awesome power of Pokemon ex and Lv X.
Your league is Modified format? My leagues are Unlimited. Oh, my Neo Genesis Cleffa, how I've missed you :redface:. A lot of the broken stuff hasn't yet been discovered
Why would Elm be a Supporter? It takes out your ability to use any trainers after you use it. Making it a Supporter would make it broken.
No, I meant reprint it like the following.
Professor Elm
supporter
Supporter rule
Shuffle your hand into your deck and draw 7 cards. You can't play anymore trainer or stadium cards for the rest of the turn.
That way it's basically the same thang as da old one.
Not kidding.
From an infrastructure level, WOTC/DCI is great.
I can't disagree with what you're saying regarding the judging level though (although that is at a different level that I was originally speaking). I saw my share of problems as well, especially at Battle Zones and such. Too many people running tournaments who didn't know Pokemon (or thought it was just like running a Magic tournament).
But don't forget our miscues. Nationals in 2004 was a disaster.
I think it's nice to see Prof. Dave giving WotC props where they deserve it - DCI really helped propel M:TG from something 'geeky' to a more mainstream game in the eyes of money. Who can argue with big tournaments and lots of money prizes?
POP is slightly different, but it is unlikely to be as good as it is today if people like Dave and Mike weren't working for DCI.
But yes, in almost all ways, PUI > WotC (when it comes to Pokemon...)
PS: What happened Nats 2004?
POP is slightly different, but it is unlikely to be as good as it is today if people like Dave and Mike weren't working for DCI.
But yes, in almost all ways, PUI > WotC (when it comes to Pokemon...)
PS: What happened Nats 2004?
Nick15
Member
Ditto. I think after Nintendo took over, the game fizzled for me. More on that in a second.
I could very well be 100% absolutely wrong about everything I write here... but this is just what I think.
SHORT ANSWER: Wizards = victim. Most of the junk that came with their run of things was not their fault; red tape kept them from using their full potential.
LONG ANSWER: Truth be told, I don't see Wizards of the Coast as being the offending company in any of this. Not at all. In fact, I see them more of a victim of corporate bureaucracy. Maybe they had their own plans for Pokémon, but so did Hasbro, Nintendo of Japan (via Nintendo of America) and MediaFactory (later TPC). From my point of view, it seems more like Wizards of the Coast had their hands tied behind their backs, having to take orders from a million different bosses. The only reason why the game seems to be a lot more organized these days is because everything got folded into one single company; less cooks, less spoiled broth.
I have very little doubt that Wizards, upon taking up the Pokémon TCG license, thought of it as a potential cash cow, and largely treated it as such. But I also refuse to believe that the crew who were actually part of the Pokémon TCG department within WotC were interested in it for the same reasons. I would like to believe that Wizards of the Coast and the DCI COULD have and WANTED to provide the kind of support PUI has, had they been in the same situation that PUI is in. But having been through all the old issues and whatnot, the only vibe I had from WotC was "Japan won't let us do this." and "Hasbro won't let us do that." Not so much "we don't want to do this" or "we're not gonna do that," unless that was just trying to absorb the blame away from Nintendo, Hasbro and TPC. Prop15 (and 3 cards per deck) existed because Wizards, as far as I remember, couldn't ban cards and they had to think of a way to combat Trainermon (which existed through no fault of Wizards). Axing 15+ from the tournaments was another idea that Wizards was not behind, but unfortunately took the blame for.
In any case, WotC, in my opinion, "failed" because it was just simply restricted. Maybe they restricted themselves at times, but that was on top of the bundles of red tape holding them down. I honestly believe that if Wizards of the Coast was allowed free reign with the game, without interference, then we probably would have had the system we have now. ... Nintendo is doing things right simply because they have are capable of doing so, and they're not being held back. That, and they basically build upon what Wizards set up; The Professor Program, the Leagues, Worlds, Prereleases, the DCI-esque tournament system, trips, the kinds of prizes, even the grammar on the cards... the very foundation of the game as we know it (at least outside of Japan) was all Wizards' doing. I doubt very much Nintendo could have started this from scratch. Wizards deserves more credit than they get for this game.
As for my opinion of the game now... it's largely from the creative angle. I got a lot of gripes with game, and while I think WotC did a good job of trying to minimize these gripes, I believe they have since multiplied upon Nintendo's run.
* I honestly like the DCI system better. I never saw it as "WotC is trying to get people to play Magic," just that they had a working system which happened to have been birthed from Magic tournaments. I too agree that they added a significant level of legitimacy to the game.
* I never really liked the concept of Pokémon-ex. Even Babies were really pushing it (boy I really show my age with that one). I don't know what lv.X Pokémon are, but I'll probably think they're another unnecessary addition to the game. Having made a ton of fake cards got me to believe that the game does not need all these high falootin new types to keep the game fresh. I believe you just need more creative attacks and powers. I will conceed that certain new aspects are needed to keep the game fresh, but not to the level of Pokémon-ex or the like. 120HP or less!!
* It's a Magic thing, but it translated well into Pokémon: Block sets, and how Modified was basically the last two blocks. Seeing, from the sidelines, the EX series expands to ten or something sets really started to bug me. Furthermore, the lack of reprints from past sets is also a bit disappointing. I believe this is where Wizards' was allowed to get things right; they were able to build their sets with tournaments in mind. Legendary Collection is probably the best tournament set I've ever seen for Pokémon.
* Heck, it took Nintendo a while to even provide booklets for the Leagues. When I ran the league, prizes came from out of my own collection. True, POP fixed that since then, but Wizards had all that from day one of their Leagues and never skipped a beat.
I don't think Pokémon-ex could have been avoided it Wizards still ran the game. But at least the other major gripes would not be an issue. I just think Wizards ran it as good as they could, and had the potential to run it far better than it is being run right now.
That's all I gotta say. [shrugs]
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If Wizards are so good at the kid TCGs then why hasn't one of them taken the top spot? I know about them but Pokemon is the only one that has offered me any fun and Neopets is the only one I have ever seen played anywhere and that was one location.
Rulemaster
New Member
from a competitive players viewpoint, the game is a lot better. and i know you havent played for a long time nick, i dont think you can say that you quit solely because the franchise changed hands. a lot of the mechanics are a lot more complex than at first glance.
POP has made some weird decisions lately...but overall, i don't know how much more anyone could do than PUI given their budget. i think it would be anyone's challenge to try to allocate the money correctly to support the game.
POP has made some weird decisions lately...but overall, i don't know how much more anyone could do than PUI given their budget. i think it would be anyone's challenge to try to allocate the money correctly to support the game.
Nick, I respect your opinions, but differ with you on a few points.
Yes, there certainly were red tape issues with dealing with Media Factory or Game Freak and getting information and approval on rulings and other things. We still see some of that today, even with PUI. Not as much, but some. However, while the 15+ removal was presented as initiated by Japan, I'm not sure I believe that anymore. I know that certain misbehaviors by older players triggered it, but I believe the trigger was pulled on the US side and whether it was just happy coincidence that it "might" push older players to Magic or part of the actual decision, I'm pretty certain Wizards corporate did that on their own. That left the MTs to sell it to the player base. I don't know if they were directed to point the finger overseas or not, but that's what was done.
The fact that Japan has a healthy Masters player base and that PUI immediate reinstated the 15+ when they took over puts the lie to it, though. MT Mike did the best that he could to minimize that by creating the Professor Program, so I give him big credit there, but Wizards as an entity did push out a lot of the 15+ players and they have to be held accountable for that.
[edit]Oh, one more thing on the Prof Program: Look at when the Prof Championship was the only event available for 15+ players. WotC held it late at night, after the Championships for the younger kids, with no publicity and after everyone else had left. I belive the MTs were keeping it on the QT to avoid annoying their corporate bosses, but regardless, it made it seem like something that had to be hidden.
Compare that to POP's Prof Cup which has a whole day of Origins dedicated to it. Night and day.
Final point:
Wizards ran PreReleases from Fossil (3rd set) through Gym Heroes (5th set). While there is a PR promo for Jungle, I believe that was just given out at test leagues and there was no actual PR event for it. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. So, they ran three whole PRs before dropping it, just when sales needed the push from something like that! And they never reinstated it during the rest of their reign.
POP, on the other hand, has run PRs for every single set since Dragon. More than a dozen sets, and counting. And that was regardless of what sales were like. From news reports, sales are starting to pump back up, but POP never dropped PRs when things were low. I give them big props for that!
I agree with you 100% that we had a good crew in the MTs working the "front line". But I also think they had certain directives from Wizards that they were given to "sell" or put the best face on.
Yes, there certainly were red tape issues with dealing with Media Factory or Game Freak and getting information and approval on rulings and other things. We still see some of that today, even with PUI. Not as much, but some. However, while the 15+ removal was presented as initiated by Japan, I'm not sure I believe that anymore. I know that certain misbehaviors by older players triggered it, but I believe the trigger was pulled on the US side and whether it was just happy coincidence that it "might" push older players to Magic or part of the actual decision, I'm pretty certain Wizards corporate did that on their own. That left the MTs to sell it to the player base. I don't know if they were directed to point the finger overseas or not, but that's what was done.
The fact that Japan has a healthy Masters player base and that PUI immediate reinstated the 15+ when they took over puts the lie to it, though. MT Mike did the best that he could to minimize that by creating the Professor Program, so I give him big credit there, but Wizards as an entity did push out a lot of the 15+ players and they have to be held accountable for that.
Professor Program: Again, props to MT Mike for coming up with this, but it a stop gap for Wizards. A way to minimize the damage done by eliminating 15+. Plus, it turned into an unpaid salesforce at the end, when they were used to push marketing for Wizards that was then turned around to other WotC games as soon as the liscence was lost. Left a bad taste in some people's mouths. WotC may have started it, but POP has really run with this program. Some people thing the prof program doesn't do anything, but ask any active professor that is running leagues, events, or judging, and you'll hear differently.
[edit]Oh, one more thing on the Prof Program: Look at when the Prof Championship was the only event available for 15+ players. WotC held it late at night, after the Championships for the younger kids, with no publicity and after everyone else had left. I belive the MTs were keeping it on the QT to avoid annoying their corporate bosses, but regardless, it made it seem like something that had to be hidden.
Compare that to POP's Prof Cup which has a whole day of Origins dedicated to it. Night and day.
Neither WotC nor PUI have much to say about what kinds of cards or concepts are created or emphasized in the game. It's all out of PCL in Japan and that's that. Neither credit nor blame to either company for this kind of thing.
Agree with you here. Some kind of reprint set designed for sealed play would be welcome back. Especially if it utilized some old card we haven't seen in a while!
You have a point here, but bear in mind that when WotC started up the leagues, Pokemon was pouring more money into their coffers than they knew what to do with, literally! The sales volume they saw was 10 times what they were used to seeing. They had a lot of cash to throw at things. That makes doing this kind of thing a lot easier.
Final point:
Wizards ran PreReleases from Fossil (3rd set) through Gym Heroes (5th set). While there is a PR promo for Jungle, I believe that was just given out at test leagues and there was no actual PR event for it. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. So, they ran three whole PRs before dropping it, just when sales needed the push from something like that! And they never reinstated it during the rest of their reign.
POP, on the other hand, has run PRs for every single set since Dragon. More than a dozen sets, and counting. And that was regardless of what sales were like. From news reports, sales are starting to pump back up, but POP never dropped PRs when things were low. I give them big props for that!
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*nods to 'pop*
not to mention, professor rewards. the most any professor got under wotc was their blue shirt and a handful of foil professor elm cards, for 'delegating' at stores; turns out the info was never even used for OUR game, but was used to contact the stores for wotc's _other_ games.
compare that with the unique items for profs to earn under POP: polo shirt, t-shirt, hat, jacket, bag, notebook, card box, deck box, stopwatch, watch, stamped cards...
POP > WotC, hands-down IMO.
'mom
not to mention, professor rewards. the most any professor got under wotc was their blue shirt and a handful of foil professor elm cards, for 'delegating' at stores; turns out the info was never even used for OUR game, but was used to contact the stores for wotc's _other_ games.
compare that with the unique items for profs to earn under POP: polo shirt, t-shirt, hat, jacket, bag, notebook, card box, deck box, stopwatch, watch, stamped cards...
POP > WotC, hands-down IMO.
'mom
What was the temp. in **** today? I agree with Mom..
I may not like all of the decisions the PUI makes, I may even flat out HATE some of them. You cannot dispute that which PUI has done by taking this game from what it was(all but dead in 2003) to the monster of a game it is now(Breaking event records, IE Origins 2006).
They have done so much for this game beyond anything WotC could have imagined.
Props to all of the folks who work their butts off to take OUR game to the greatness that it is today.
Thanks guys!
Steve
I may not like all of the decisions the PUI makes, I may even flat out HATE some of them. You cannot dispute that which PUI has done by taking this game from what it was(all but dead in 2003) to the monster of a game it is now(Breaking event records, IE Origins 2006).
They have done so much for this game beyond anything WotC could have imagined.
Props to all of the folks who work their butts off to take OUR game to the greatness that it is today.
Thanks guys!
Steve
Hikari_Netto
Member
PokePop said:
There was a PR Promo for Jungle? I don't remember that at all. Was it printed in short quantities? Our league still had leftovers of the Aerodactyl, Dark Gyrados, and Misty's Promos, all the way until the end of Neo. And I still remember them giving them away at those Toys R Us 'Pokemon Days' a few years back alongside the Chimecho and Beldum promos. ^ ^;
There is another side to it which is rarely mentioned, but as a collector I LOVE: putting Japanese promos into main sets. Sure sometimes it makes the set look weird (TM/TA anyone?) but coupled with the POP packs, we're getting cards which wouldn't usually be seen. And what about PK? The Eeveelution star cards are very very rare in Japan. With WotC, we would never have got them. And the black star promos which WotC started are still up and running, so we're getting even more promos than ever before.
Even more than that, Ex: Emerald was originally the QCP packs. Now people might not like them, but I doubt we would've got them if WotC was still handling Pokémon. They always said they wanted to translate all of the 'Vending' cards. But did they?
Now that Victory Medal cards are being awarded for Battle Roads, another 'barrier' has fallen. All we need is those 'player's name in title' cards (like the VS Movie sets) and I can't really think of any major types of cards that we don't get here.
Even more than that, Ex: Emerald was originally the QCP packs. Now people might not like them, but I doubt we would've got them if WotC was still handling Pokémon. They always said they wanted to translate all of the 'Vending' cards. But did they?
Now that Victory Medal cards are being awarded for Battle Roads, another 'barrier' has fallen. All we need is those 'player's name in title' cards (like the VS Movie sets) and I can't really think of any major types of cards that we don't get here.
ninetales1234
<a href="http://pokegym.net/gallery/browseimages.p
Shouldn't it be obvious that WotC representatives were lying when they said that the elimination of +15 division was an order from TPC?
TPC is still around, and somehow the +15 division is back.
TPC is still around, and somehow the +15 division is back.
I agree, but I think the Pokemon-ex were a good idea. The "Baby Evolution" Pokemon are much better than Baby Pokemon.
I wouldn't say that, but I wish there were more too.
Pkmnrulz240
New Member
Oh, Lord, Nick... that's exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread.
I left the Pokémon scene about the time Sandstorm came out. Pulled out my old cards this year and started buying rarer Japanese promos and completing some sets, and was shocked to see all of those darn EX sets on ebay now. Holy cow.
I stated long, long ago when Wizards announced that their license was NOT to be renewed after the contract was up, that I felt that PUI was going to be the death of the game... even though at that point, it could be said that the Pokémon TCG was pretty dead under WOTCs control.
Anyways, Nick, when you say that WOTC only failed because they were restricted, I could not possibly agree more. Looking back in the Pokemon History topics (I THINK.) that were posted here on the gym a few months before I returned, I ran across a few of the old MT chat sessions. Reading those things provided me with my needed comic relief, and what I needed to keep in touch with what was happening in the Pokémon TCG world. And I'm pretty sure I still have the old MT song on my other computer somewhere, or at least burned on an old CD. I'll have to find that one. It might be in my mom's car, actually...
Wow, tangent. >.<
Anyways, what I noticed at the end of the chat session was that one of the MTs stated that WOTC hadn't yet heard back about acquiring the license or rights or whatever to translate and distribute the Vending Series in English. That right there shows me that they were TRYING to do that kind of thing, but that they were severely limited by whoever was above them in the corporate hierarchy. They were trying to do interesting things like that. Unfortunately, with that old style of cards long gone, theres virtually no chance that PUI would ever think about translating the Vending Series now. So we'll never see the majority of those cards in English now, save the few that have been made into promos. But when was the last time that happened? Probably with Articuno, WOTC promo 48. Unless some other was released, but I haven't seen anything that caught my eye on ebay.
Whether or not WOTC was trying to help the game or if they were trying to secretly kill it, I still think I would of been playing the game all these years had they of retained the license. I quit simply because I disagreed about their license renewal request being denied. I can pretty surely say I'd of been with the game all this time if they had received that renewal. Sure, it probably wouldn't of been in the best interest of the game, with the apparent restrictions, but it would have kept me in the fanbase.
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