How to make it fair for the West Coast and everyone else next year

[Scizor]

So, call it sour grapes, or whatever you want, but after my mediocre 6-3 Nationals campaign and an otherwise great season, I'm sitting at home for Worlds. Considering I won 4 of 6 events I attended in California, it's very possible that I could have gained a trip to Worlds had I had the opportunity to attend more events. Even with a 6-3 at Nationals, none of my losses were "bad" and I was very nearly correct in the end when I guestimated 1975 would be the cutoff for ranking invites: it was 1974.

I saw this coming the whole time, so I'm going to propose some ways to make the ranking system and next year's invite system in the U.S. fair to everyone.

#1: Regionals winners should be given Worlds invites - This is the most obvious one that has been discussed many times. I'm the prime example of this, though. I won the only Regional I attended, didn't get to go to a States, but I'm "the best player in my Region". Shouldn't this mean I get a trip to Worlds? I mean, Ross and Kettler dominated theirs by going to 10's of events, and I'm punished because I can't do that?

#2: Limit State Championships - In order to make it fair for everyone, places like the NorthEast shouldn't be able to go to 4 State Championships because their states are the size of San Bernardino County, California. This is one of my biggest beefs with the "system". It is simply not fair in any way that States be counted at a high level if people get to go to 1-4X as many as someone else.

My proposal(s) for the States issue:
1. Only allow 2 dates for State Championships to be run, not two weekends
2. Limit the # of States someone can attend if the above is not possible (unlikely)
3. Give a higher K value or more prizes to those State Championships with a higher attendance (more on this later)

#3: Lower the K value on City and Battle Road tournaments - This can be done, as long as the problems with States and Regionals (coming up) are fixed. Otherwise, lowering the value of these events just punishes the areas that have to travel far for multiple States/Regionals. I really don't even think that Cities and Battle Roads should be a part of the rating system whatsoever, especially if States and Regionals can be made fair to everyone (I believe they can), but I doubt that CCs and BRs will be cut from the rating system.

#4: Make Regional Championships more accessible - Basically, States and Regionals should be flip flopped. What I mean by this is, Regionals should be the tournament that takes up 2 full weekends, and not States. I know it wasn't possible for me to go to 2 Regionals because they were back to back Saturdays and 6 and 10 hours away. I'm sorry, but the West Coast has a whole lot of people, and our Regionals are 6+ hours apart. I'm sure that the Midwest can share this problem this particular year, as well. There needs to be more dates available for Regionals, and we have to shake up some of the Regions here.

#5: Make U.S. Nationals worth even more - We saw an astounding 418 players in the Masters division at Nationals this year. There were 4 automatic trips given away -- less than 1%. We had 7-2s missing the T32 cut. At least T8 should be given invites, and if Regional invites come back, then we will possibly have a few passdowns. That makes it a lot better than just T4. Also, if Nationals is going to consistantly be by far the biggest tournament in the World, I think it is due for a prize increase. A little more scholarship $$, maybe some more Nintendo products, like Wiis, DS, etc.

#6: Give more prizes or a higher K value to events with high attendance: I know this "isn't Magic: The Gathering", but their game uses attendance to determine how many prizes/invites/etc. to give away. Why can't our game do this? This would solve a lot of the problems with some areas getting a lot higher attendance than others and eliminate the complaining about tournaments with 30 players getting the same amount as a tournament with 150 players. On top of this, *MAYBE* tournaments with a higher attendance could be given a K value bonus, or even something along the lines of when you Top cut, you gain a bonus amount of points.

Other Possible Ideas (that I'm not going to expand on right now):
-Byes for Regional/State Winners at Nationals
-Bring back Intentional Draws
-3-5 turn clock similar to M:TG when time is called
-Increased Top Cut time limits (I see Worlds is doing this)
-Implement something like the Stadium Challenges again, or even a Continental Championship

These are all possible things to consider for the future. I don't claim that all of these things should happen, it's just stuff I think could possibly be added that would make things more fair. I don't have to show everyone, all you have to do is go look on the rating system and see who's being invited, and look at those U.S. Nationals attendance numbers. Chad is out

 

[Bolt]

I agree with you here, I said in the past that I think the amount of tournaments you can get points for should be changed...4 cities, 2 states, 2 regionals, 4 battle roads...something like that.

Also, I could swear I remember hearing at the beginning of the season that K value would also be determined by event and attendance? I dunno.

It's expensive traveling to all kinds of events, give the poor a chance!

 

[Professor Elm]

Well, I do agree w/ the states thing.
I mean Texas is the second biggest state in the US, and every year I ride w/ Jose on the 3-5 hour drive to states. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything, but the fact that Texas and California are about 5 times the size of some states (maybe an exaggeration, but still) it's a lot harder to attend multiple states. Some people can prolly drive about that same time, and get to attend 2-5 states, lol.

BUT, there isn't much you can do, except maybe hold like 2 state championships in a single state. BUT that would just be weird and wouldn't make sense.

I dunno, I really was upset how everything went down this year, but the game is just too fun to think about quitting, SO unless POP screws up REAL bad, by limiting invites/travel awards/prize structure even more than they already have, then I will be content w/ whatever they decide to do.
WHAT I HAVE BEEN THINKING is to bring back the entrance fee to tournaments. Just like a $5 one, to help pay for expenses. I DEFINITELY would choose to pay $5 a tourney if it meant that we got an increase in invites/travel awards to worlds. It wouldn't be the most desirable thing to do, but it looks like the rating system is gonna stay.

BUT yeah, I will just let POP/PUI do their thang, and just standby and play the game, and have fun.

 

[SuperWooper]

#1: Regionals winners should be given Worlds invites

Makes sense. We should be doing this.

At least T8 should be given invites [at Nationals], and if Regional invites come back, then we will possibly have a few passdowns. That makes it a lot better than just T4.

Definitely. T4 getting trips in a 400+ person tournament doesn't sit very well with me. Something about the Top 8 just clicks as far as invites are concerned.

#6: Give more prizes or a higher K value to events with high attendance: I know this "isn't Magic: The Gathering", but their game uses attendance to determine how many prizes/invites/etc. to give away. Why can't our game do this? This would solve a lot of the problems with some areas getting a lot higher attendance than others and eliminate the complaining about tournaments with 30 players getting the same amount as a tournament with 150 players. On top of this, *MAYBE* tournaments with a higher attendance could be given a K value bonus, or even something along the lines of when you Top cut, you gain a bonus amount of points.

An interesting idea, but I imagine that this would cause problems with expected event sizes. City Championships are often held in small game and comic book stores, and if attendance is the primary factor in determining K-value, I imagine that attendance at these once-small events would probably skyrocket, and it would be difficult to hold the extra dozens of people in those little shops. Scouting around for venues of an appropriate size would become a lot more difficult, and, as a result, we might get even less tournaments (which I'm sure wouldn't be to your liking, considering the rough season Californians had this year). I do love the idea about bonus points for top cutting at a tournament with an especially large number of participants, though.

Good post all the way around, especially about Regionals invites, of course. Why aren't we getting those, again? =/

 

[EternalFire]

Other Possible Ideas (that I'm not going to expand on right now):
-Byes for Regional/State Winners at Nationals
-Bring back Intentional Draws
-3-5 turn clock similar to M:TG when time is called
-Increased Top Cut time limits (I see Worlds is doing this)
-Implement something like the Stadium Challenges again, or even a Continental Championship

I 'm not getting into another East vs. West thing again because I think POP has enough info to decide on thier own and not need another 100+ post thread stating opinions. I will touch on these though:

1. No way... No, not ever gonna happen again. Just ask anyone who went in 2004 how long it took to get to round 1. Waiting till round 3 was no fun for me at all when everyone else is playing. >_<

2. Not gonna happen after the abuse it caused back in '04. If there were none back then I would've been in the top cut at Nats. :frown:

3. That's just it, we're not Magic. POP does not own the game, PCL does. Plain and simple, it's not gonna happen. PCL would be the first to rule on this and I doubt they'd invite this into the game one bit.

4. I don't mind that for anything bigger than States. Anything smaller isn't really recommended.

5. While I would love to see Continental Championships, it wouldn't happen. They'd have to be bigger than Nats and smaller than worlds. Not to mention it'd be called Intercontiental and would be worlds like without the limitations. A mini Worlds if you will.

*Hopes this thread ends without too many replies so we can save wasted energy*

 

[ryanvergel]

A turn clock would be SICK!

I hate playing against pokeparents because they're so SLOW. They're not stalling, but they're just too slow. When they play slowly and there's nothing you can do about it, winning (not trying to, but succeeding in) on time happens a lot. It just so happens this year at nats I wasn't the one who won on time,

Things I'd like to see this year:

1. Regional winners are given invites.
2. Cities and BRs' k-value is reduced significantly to >26. Ideally around 16 or so, or even around 12.
3. t8 nats gets trips. With 418 people it's pretty sick to consider less than 1% of players get an invite. Compare that to any other nats and I think you'd see we get a raw deal.
4. Larger cuts. I know the littluns can't stay up too late, but 15+ sure can! If you could have a t64 cut after swiss, and end at t32 for the next day (sunday) I think it would be a lot more fair. With such a large field there should be a wider cut. Maybe if that isn't possible there could be two flights with 8 rounds and the top 32 from each flight going into a 64 person cut that night. No matter what, it seems like there should be something done where 7-2s miss the cut to a tournament. At worlds last year 5-3s made it into the final cut. Final cut of nats>final cut of worlds? Icky.

 

[bulbasnore]

Great post Chad -- Solid reasoning with a definitely not a sour grapes tone.

I think a lot of folks had problems with the ratings system this year. My concern is with the calculation/tension it brings out (and the gas families have to spend driving to many many events).

I'm sure glad we have a lot of events though. I remember when OP was scarce. Despite the glitches, these are good times, no doubt!

Good contribs like this will help the discussion and may even become a piece of the next move in what PUI does best -- continually improving our game.

 

[bulbasnore]

A turn clock would be SICK!

Hmm. We have folks who can count ahead and still time; it would be less exact than waiting for time to be called on your turn, tho.
However, I think 3-5 turn extension might be 30 minutes they way many players play with no clock. It would bust most event schedules, IMNSHO.

Now a true turn clock, chess clock, that would be sick[sup]2[/sup]. In my dreams tho.

I hate playing against pokeparents because they're so SLOW. They're not stalling, but they're just too slow.

So, at a City I was playing a 'new player pokeparent'. My Fly ex vs his Delta Raieggs. You know how that one should go (but for everyone else, Raichu is toast if Flygon sets up), but I wasn't getting my turns.

I finally asked the judge for an extension, and he was like, "Finally! One of you guys said something about it in a game!".

Long story short, this guy was SO slow that after two extensions, he still got me on time. He has a wife and two kids that just started playing, so I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, because me winning vs. them having a good time is not even a question (though I did beat two of our better players in the prior rounds and thought I was on a roll). However, YOU don't have to take it.

Call the judge and ASK for an extension when you get a slow poke-parent/player/punk/whatever. It can't hurt and they may give the extension!

 

[meganium45]

At the end of the day...I am not 100% convinced the system failed as bad as we had feared it would...

If today's rankings stand up...of the 42 2007 winners (not Worlds 2006 T4s), they come from the following areas:

East (10)
North Carolina (2)
Pennsylvania (2)
New Jersey (2)
Rhode Island (1)
New York (1)
Virginia (1)
Massachussets (1)

Central (13)
Illinois (3)
Missouri (3)
Michigan (2)
Indiana (2)
Ohio (1)
Iowa (1)
Tennessee (1)

West (9)
Washington (4)
California (3)
Colorado (2)

South (10)
Florida (5)
Texas (4)
Georgia (1)

Upon this analysis, there were some states that missed that made me such as:

Oregon, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arizona, Kentucky, Minnesota and Mississippi

Plus more that all contain great players, but with trips so restricted, it made for some major players missing out.

Needless to say, there are far more people unhappy than happy, but, heh, it is expected with such an exclusive event!

Vince

 

[Lawman]

Good points Chad. I think I hit on a few of those in my thread...ie Reg's winners getting an invite and lower K values for CCs and BRs. Posts like this will get more attention from PUI/OP than the Nats sour grapes one IMO.

Keith

 

[ryanvergel]

Florida has the most people going to worlds. Hmmm.

 

[dogma]

Scizor, you made some very good suggestions. But I'm starting to think that maybe the problem with the US system is more to do with a 'postcode lottery' than anything else - where you live determines how many tournaments you can (reasonably) get to.

The problem is that there are always going to be problems with a generalised approach as 'x invites in this tournament, top y in another'. Two ideal solutions would be;

1) Put more tournaments in areas with high OP populations. What I mean is, even out where the tournaments are being held according to where the players are. Ideally, everyone would be able to get to the same amount of tournaments.

Even if that were possible, there is still one major problem with it: POP would be concentrating all of its resources on existing players, and not on getting new ones into the game.

2) Give everyone enough prize support to be able to travel freely to wherever the tournaments are held. But then, if the game was that healthy, none of us would be having this discussion.



Give POP a chance. Noone should expect such an elaborate system as this to be perfect; and remember how bad it was when POP took over. It should only get better from now...

 

[Hagrid23]

At the end of the day...I am not 100% convinced the system failed as bad as we had feared it would...

If today's rankings stand up...of the 42 2007 winners (not Worlds 2006 T4s), they come from the following areas:

South (10)
Florida (5)

Vince

I think you are missing one from Florida (probably Bobby M). We have Eric C & John S from Masters, Garrett F & Bobby M from Seniors, and Grafton R & Danny A from Juniors.

So, Florida rules for (at least) two years in a row.

 

[ryanvergel]

Danny's up, too!?

 

[Scizor]

Scizor, you made some very good suggestions. But I'm starting to think that maybe the problem with the US system is more to do with a 'postcode lottery' than anything else - where you live determines how many tournaments you can (reasonably) get to.

The problem is that there are always going to be problems with a generalised approach as 'x invites in this tournament, top y in another'. Two ideal solutions would be;

1) Put more tournaments in areas with high OP populations. What I mean is, even out where the tournaments are being held according to where the players are. Ideally, everyone would be able to get to the same amount of tournaments.

Even if that were possible, there is still one major problem with it: POP would be concentrating all of its resources on existing players, and not on getting new ones into the game.

2) Give everyone enough prize support to be able to travel freely to wherever the tournaments are held. But then, if the game was that healthy, none of us would be having this discussion.



Give POP a chance. Noone should expect such an elaborate system as this to be perfect; and remember how bad it was when POP took over. It should only get better from now...

In a way, it is a postcode lottery. I feel like, well actually I know, because there is proof, that areas with a lot of PTOs or PTOs that were willing to run several events were at an advantage this season.

I touched on your ideas, and I realize the problems that could happen by balancing out tournaments. However, that is one of the reasons I am for axing CCs and BRs from the rankings completely: it allows for newer players to get into the game without having to deal with a cutthroat environment. Pre-Releases are great, but they're like a $25 entry fee for a limited format that they will never play in a competitive event, unless you count the Professor Cup.

I don't have much to add on the prize support, I think I've made that pretty clear, and I agree with you there.

We are giving POP a chance here, and I don't think the game was "bad" when they took over in 2004. We had more players making Worlds, yes less prizes and everything else, but it still was not bad by any means. Those who are still around from 2004, remember how many trips were being given out and a lot of people just want to play in Worlds. I think it is ok to make Worlds more exclusive than it was in 2004, however, I just don't think the invite distribution was handled as well it could have been this season or last season.

EDIT: And Vince: Ross is the only player from the entire West Coast in Masters division that got an invite to Worlds. I get what you're saying, but it is much less balanced in Masters, IMO.

 

[chriscobi634]

Upon this analysis, there were some states that missed that made me such as:

Oregon, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arizona, Kentucky, Minnesota and Mississippi

why, oh why:frown:

darn you pooka, i told you to come out to more CCs, jk buddy:thumb:

 

[The Gorn]

#1: Regionals winners should be given Worlds invites

Agree. 100%.

#2: Limit State Championships - In order to make it fair for everyone, places like the NorthEast shouldn't be able to go to 4 State Championships because their states are the size of San Bernardino County, California. This is one of my biggest beefs with the "system". It is simply not fair in any way that States be counted at a high level if people get to go to 1-4X as many as someone else.

Disagree. But would hope that all States take place on the same day (or at least, weekend).

#3: Lower the K value on City and Battle Road tournaments

Agree.

#4: Make Regional Championships more accessible

Disagree. I would like to see all Regionals on the same day and make it one-and-done.

#5: Make U.S. Nationals worth even more

TOTALLY agree. While I still think the smart play was sitting out Nationals, PUI should make it such that sitting out Nats is a truly bad idea. A very high K value would do that.

#6: Give more prizes or a higher K value to events with high attendance:

I would like to see the K values vary based on attendance and, furthermore, I would like to see the K values vary based on the overall ranking of those playing in the event. If you play in an area with a LOT of good players (like the Midwest or Florida), it's a tougher game. Reward success accordingly.

 

[Articjedi]

The largest problem I see with in tourney play is easily the complete lack of time to finish a best of 3 match. One hour is definitely not enough time, and POP is acknowledging this with 75 minute rounds. I'd much rather prefer 90, but it's a good start for next season IF POP implements this for all of their tournaments. Games in normal swiss rounds sometimes don't end by the time limit, doubling the amount of time does not give enough time to complete 3 so called 30 minute games.

We need a turn clock, badly. I really don't care if magic uses it, it would be good for the game in general because stalling is less of a factor. I'm sick of hearing the stalling complaints round after round from every player who lost on time.

 

[Pablo]

Disagree. I would like to see all Regionals on the same day and make it one-and-done.

Unless you magically clone yourself, you cannot attend 2 regionals on the same day, and win one before the other one starts.

 

[Pokemon No Baka]

Unless you magically clone yourself, you cannot attend 2 regionals on the same day, and win one before the other one starts.

No, it doesn't work. One clone always seems to have some sort of flaw. The last clone was eating the cards. Had to kill that one.