Level Up a LV. X

[neo phyte]

you cant put a lvlx on top of a lvl x.

you cant put a stage 2 on top of a stage 2, or a stage 1 on a stage 1 even with different artwork, its exactly the same.

yu must think that a lvl x is a power up like dragonball z, from saiyan to super saiyan.

and pokemons cant go to super saiyan 2, or they must make a lvl x stage 2

but its stupid that you cant play 4 lucario AND 4 lucario lvl x, like 4 absol and 4 absol ex

 

[Ditto]

DITTO!!!!

JIMMER, POKEPOP AND OTHER NORMAL PEOPLE HERE IS TELLING YOU THE SAME THING, YOU CANT! JIMMER WORKS FOR PUI/POP AND POKEPOP IS A MEMBER OF TEAM CONPENDIUM, THEIR RULING SHOULD BE ENOUGH FOR YOU I DONT KNOW WHY YOU CONTINUE TO ARGUE THIS. OBEDINCE TO THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE RULEINGS IS. :thumb:

Sorry for the CAPS, I had to get that off my chest. Awaits for this to get locked:smile:

So when 'Pop comes to your match at Nationals and tells you that he's ruling that you can't use your Delcatty's Power you would just say OK and not use it? No, you would question why you can't do something the card says you can do. If you are given a good reason (there's cess crystal in play) then you say OK and move on, but if you aren't given a good reason then I would expect that you would call for the Head Judge.

Now this is no offense to 'Pop or anyone else (just using the same name you supplied), but as of right now no one has been able to give me a good reason as to why I can't do what my card says I can do. Now, if the card really was just not intended to be played like that, then I can understand, however, only PCL has the right to make that call as they are the ones that made the cards so it's their say as to what they meant the cards to be.

Again, don't get me wrong, I appreciate everything that PUI and the Rules Team and everyone else does for this game, and I am not trying to step on their toes or anything, but they don't really have the right to decide what a card was created to be like if they weren't the ones that created it. Now they can interpret cards that may have some deeper than normal logic, but for them to say that I can't do something that the card says I can isn't really right.

This is a forum for debate, and so I am debating, nothing wrong with that. I am also asking for a logical retort or for someone to check with PCL to get the intent of the card.

There is no new x. x=x for all x in F

If you're saying x=x+1, then you're saying 0=1

Look into programming or recursion. In a brief and simple example, take the following lines of code:

X = 1
X = X + 1
X = X + 1
X = X + 1
PRINT X

The output would be 4 (assuming I can add correctly, lol).

It's not an equation, it's an assigning of a variable. Read my above example about having two different level Torterra and Leveling Up each of them.

you cant put a lvlx on top of a lvl x.

you cant put a stage 2 on top of a stage 2, or a stage 1 on a stage 1 even with different artwork, its exactly the same.

yu must think that a lvl x is a power up like dragonball z, from saiyan to super saiyan.

and pokemons cant go to super saiyan 2, or they must make a lvl x stage 2

but its stupid that you cant play 4 lucario AND 4 lucario lvl x, like 4 absol and 4 absol ex

Why can't you put a LV. X on top of a LV. X? The card says I can. Read it. As far as I know there is nothing in the rulebook that says you can only Level Up once, and in the video game (which this is mimicking) you can certainly Level Up more than once.

You can't evolve into the same Pokémon cause that actually breaks a rule. The rule for evolving is that you place the card that evolves from a certain Pokémon on top of that Pokémon, thus changing the Pokémon. So if you were to try again, say you just evolved into a Charizard, you would have to have a card that evolves from Charizard, and we know that there is none.

But with Leveling Up, you actually use the same Pokémon. Remember, the Level is not part of the name, so when you Level Up Torterra with a Torterra LV. X, the Pokémon that you have in play is still Torterra, which is what you need to Level Up into Torterra Lv. X. So since there is still a Torterra in play, why could you not Level it Up? Again, as far as I know, no where in the rulebook does it say you can't Level Up more than once.

This is exactly the reason why you can't play 4 Torterra LV. 45 and 4 Torterra LV. X, cause Torterra LV. 45 == Torterra LV. X.

 

[kevstoy]

I'm enjoying agreeing with Ditto just to further this discussion.

Now I know PokeGym doesn't "comment" on cards that don't exist, but given that LV.X seem to be the latest game variation much like EXs were and pokemon did make multiple Pokemon Exs (multiple Flygons, etc...). What would happen if they created a second LV.X for the same pokemon with alternate text/abilities. (e.g. Infernape LV.X DP and Infernape LV.X DP#) that were different.

In this case, which X is the "ultimate" as other posters have mentioned. And why wouldn't we be able to LV.X a different LV.X which as the LV.X rules state is a Level up of the same Pokemon name?

 

[PokePop]

So when 'Pop comes to your match at Nationals and tells you that he's ruling that you can't use your Delcatty's Power you would just say OK and not use it? No, you would question why you can't do something the card says you can do. If you are given a good reason (there's cess crystal in play) then you say OK and move on, but if you aren't given a good reason then I would expect that you would call for the Head Judge.

Funny, but I did just that at Nationals. And I brought it to the HJ myself, didn't wait for the player to do so. Similar reason, too. No game effect, can't be done.

Now this is no offense to 'Pop or anyone else (just using the same name you supplied), but as of right now no one has been able to give me a good reason as to why I can't do what my card says I can do. Now, if the card really was just not intended to be played like that, then I can understand, however, only PCL has the right to make that call as they are the ones that made the cards so it's their say as to what they meant the cards to be.

Jimmer speaks for PCL. If we have any uncertainty about how something works, we do bring the scenario up to them for clarification or a direct ruling. This is not something we have any uncertaintly about.

This is a forum for debate, and so I am debating, nothing wrong with that. I am also asking for a logical retort or for someone to check with PCL to get the intent of the card.

How about this: At Worlds, Chrisbo played against the PCL manager that designed the Lucario Lv X card. He was playing a killer Lucario Lv X deck. It has SSU and Mr Briney. Killer.
Not once did he ever play a Lucario Lv X on top of a Lucario Lv X.

Look into programming or recursion. In a brief and simple example, take the following lines of code:

X = 1
X = X + 1
X = X + 1
X = X + 1
PRINT X
The output would be 4 (assuming I can add correctly, lol).

It's not an equation, it's an assigning of a variable. Read my above example about having two different level Torterra and Leveling Up each of them.

How things work in computer programming has no bearing here.

Now I know PokeGym doesn't "comment" on cards that don't exist,

You're confusing the Ask the Masters forum with this forum. In the AtM forum, we never comment on an unreleased card. We only give official answers in there. Never what we "think" or "guess" it to be.
In this forum, however, we're happy to entertain hypotheticals.

but given that LV.X seem to be the latest game variation much like EXs were and pokemon did make multiple Pokemon Exs (multiple Flygons, etc...). What would happen if they created a second LV.X for the same pokemon with alternate text/abilities. (e.g. Infernape LV.X DP and Infernape LV.X DP#) that were different.

In this case, which X is the "ultimate" as other posters have mentioned. And why wouldn't we be able to LV.X a different LV.X which as the LV.X rules state is a Level up of the same Pokemon name?

To be honest, I've wondered myself how different Lv X cards of the same name would work.
Historically, a card of the same level is identical in play terms. Granted, we haven't had cards with levels on them for quite a few years, so the player base has generally forgotten that principle, but I would hope that PCL maintains it as they move forward with this new D&P generation of cards.
So I was wondering if they even would have different Lv X versions of the same Pokemon.
Time will tell.
But I would say that you can't play one onto the other for the same reason. Going from X to X is not Leveling Up. It's staying the same.

X is not being used as a variable. It is being used in the sense of "extraordinary", much like EX Pokemon were, just with a different mechanic.

 

[Ikari]

Pokemon Lv. Y FTW!!! :thumb:

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

Pokemon Lv. Y FTW!!! :thumb:

Closely followed by Pokemon Level Z.

Then I can finally play a 1-1-1-1-1-1 Infernape line.

 

[neo phyte]

you said that a torterra lv 45 is the same as the lvl x, thats why you cant put 4 torterra and 4 torterra lvl x. in a deck. its still a stupid rule, cause if you play 4 torterra lv x, that means you catcht 4 torterra's in 4 pokeballs(cartoon, computergame) that means you have to raise 4 torterra's, maybe 2 male's and 2 female's, so the 4 torterra's are being able to leveling up. why then cant you leveling up 4 torterra's in the tcg to the ultimate level.

 

[BJJ763]

Level X is variable only when compared to the current level of the Pokémon. So a Ditto Level X can be played upon a Ditto that is a Level 78 or a Level 5. But when compared to the Level X, the Level X = Level X, then you cannot play it on top of itself.

 

[THE FT. LAUD. LOUD MOUTH]

Closely followed by Pokemon Level Z.

Then I can finally play a 1-1-1-1-1-1 Infernape line.

Remember your potions so you never die :thumb:

 

[Ditto]

Funny, but I did just that at Nationals. And I brought it to the HJ myself, didn't wait for the player to do so. Similar reason, too. No game effect, can't be done.

OUCH! Ditto FTL. It's just my luck I'd pick a horrible example like that, lol. Either way, I'm sure you can get the point I was trying to make, however ironic it may be.

Jimmer speaks for PCL. If we have any uncertainty about how something works, we do bring the scenario up to them for clarification or a direct ruling. This is not something we have any uncertainty about.

How can you not be uncertain about it though when the card itself says you can do it? You are introducing a Metarule that is not based on any previous cards but on the intent of the creators, yet you have not even consulted the creators (as far as I know).

How about this: At Worlds, Chrisbo played against the PCL manager that designed the Lucario Lv X card. He was playing a killer Lucario Lv X deck. It has SSU and Mr Briney. Killer.
Not once did he ever play a Lucario Lv X on top of a Lucario Lv X.

Just because he didn't do it doesn't mean it isn't a legal move. While it's interesting information, it still doesn't conclude anything about whether he could have done it if he wanted to.

How things work in computer programming has no bearing here.

Just as well, the concept of a variable does, which is what I was trying to represent. A variable is just that, variable, which means it can change. I've already shown how Torterra LV. X could be two different Levels. It's just what X is, a non-constant number so that it can be used in a general sense without being anything in specific.

X is not being used as a variable. It is being used in the sense of "extraordinary", much like EX Pokemon were, just with a different mechanic.

And how can you know that? Did you design the LV. X cards? Again, why wouldn't they just make it LV. 100, since that's the "best"? It makes more sense to go with a variable when you need it to change, otherwise you just go with a solid number.

Level X is variable only when compared to the current level of the Pokémon. So a Ditto Level X can be played upon a Ditto that is a Level 78 or a Level 5. But when compared to the Level X, the Level X = Level X, then you cannot play it on top of itself.

Right but you aren't following your own rule. X is a variable that is compared to the current level of the Pokémon. That variable, X, has to be greater than the current level of the Pokémon since it is Leveling Up. Therefore making the definition of the variable X equal to "some level greater than the current level." Again, as I have said before, if it is continuing to follow the video game (which it mimics in the first place) then the definition would more specifically be "1 level greater than the current level." Either way, it is ALWAYS going to be greater than what it is played on, cause that's its definition. So assuming that it is meant to only increase by 1 like the video game, the equation for X would be X = currentLevel + 1. If we take that on Torterra LV. 45 we would get X = 45 + 1 or X = 46. Now if we take that on a Torterra LV. X we would get X = X + 1, so the new level would be one more than the previous level, even if we don't know what the previous level is. However, since you can't have a LV. X Pokémon without a non-LV. X Pokémon we actually do know what X is, cause the first X is determined by the non-LV. X's level. Assume Torterra LV. 45 again. If we Level it Up then the X would be X = 45 + 1 or X = 46. Then if we Level it Up again, we would get X = X + 1 or X = 46 + 1 or X = 47.

(If it helps any of you math people, replace all the "=" with "is". So it's "X is 45 + 1" and "X is X + 1". That sometimes makes it easier to understand.)

So Torterra LV. X can't equal Torterra LV. X if it is Leveled Up from itself since the meaning of Leveling Up is to increase the Pokémon's level from it's previous level, therefore meaning they can never be the same.





The problem really lies, not in the reason of why something should or shouldn't be able to be done, but the fact that the card says it can be done. So if something is going to blatantly and directly overrule the text on the card, it needs to come from PCL as a clear and direct answer.

 

[(TYranitarFReak)]

Ditto's a genius! :lol:

 

[NoPoke]

Why should the X in Lv X represent a number?

Why should X be a variable?

I can see why the original question was asked but am completely mystified by the subsequent attempt to justify the opposite answer to one that we (almost) all accept.

I believe that the Japanese language routinely omits redundancy. In other words if it is obvious then it isn't stated. The idea of placing a second Lv X ontop of another one is obviously absurd in normal play to the designers so they didn't waste any text telling the players not to be so daft as to try it.

- I top up my car battery with water. But I'm not going to drink the resultant mixture. I don't need a label on the battery to tell me not to be so dumb as to try. I don't need lots of redundant text on the cards to tell me not to try and evolve a pokemon twice with the same type of card.

Its not evolving its Leveling UP. Levelling up has its own rules which aren't all printed on the cards. So what is the problem???

 

[Mew*]

lol, this seems to be turning into an algebra lesson. There is a purpose to playing a second Lv. X... You might need one less card in your hand or once they (if they) start printing different versions of the same poke in lv x form, you may want to switch types. I will accept the official rulings though.

 

[Black Mamba]

X=X

Lets say X=100.

You can't level a Pokemon from level 100 to level 100, thus you can't level up a Pokemon to X twice.

 

[Phazon Elite]

X is not always a variable, you know. Is the X in X-Files a variable? Maybe it is! Maybe the hidden equation for the file number of each case is (X = whocares). How about the one in Extra? Extreme Makeover? Maybe every porn site ever has a CUBED X variable!

Your math teachers probably told you that "math is everywhere." This is not what they meant.

(Granted, it would have been better had they printed the cards as Lv. 100s, and I totally give you props for trying to argue an utterly hilarious point, but still, man....geez....)

 

[ThePromise]

what is this?
mods, GIVE A REAL ANSWER FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY
seriously, all ive heard so far from you is "he didnt do it" or "no because x is as high as you can get"
if you cant give a real answer, please say so and stop this stupidity

 

[charmander rox]

X=100

It's that simple.

 

[PokePop]

what is this?
mods, GIVE A REAL ANSWER FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY
seriously, all ive heard so far from you is "he didnt do it" or "no because x is as high as you can get"
if you cant give a real answer, please say so and stop this stupidity

Did you not read Jimmer's post?
He's from PUI.
What are you looking for?
A chorus of angels singing?

 

[Lawman]

Ditto: Can you go from a Flygon EX (PK) to a Flygon EX (psychic one) so you can take adv. of the sand damage body? (w/o de-evolving) An X is similar to an EX in that regard. You cannot go from one EX to another EX and you cannot level up to an X twice (or 3x, etc).

Trust TC, when there is a question about a card, they consult with PUI folks. If there is a question from the PUI guys, they consult with the PCL folks.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Also, reading the level up text on Lucario....it says "Level up, put onto Lucario". It does not say, "Level up, put onto Lucario X"

Keith

 

[kevstoy]

Ditto: Can you go from a Flygon EX (PK) to a Flygon EX (psychic one) so you can take adv. of the sand damage body? (w/o de-evolving) An X is similar to an EX in that regard. You cannot go from one EX to another EX and you cannot level up to an X twice (or 3x, etc).

Trust TC, when there is a question about a card, they consult with PUI folks. If there is a question from the PUI guys, they consult with the PCL folks.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Also, reading the level up text on Lucario....it says "Level up, put onto Lucario". It does not say, "Level up, put onto Lucario X"

Keith

But Keith, according to the rules, Lucario Lv.X counts as a Lucario. Hence, we can only have 4 of them in the deck. An the EXs mention that they "evolve" from vibrava or whatever basic/stage 1 pokemon. The LV.Xs say put onto a Pokemon "name" which if the rules are forcing us to consider Lucario LV.X a Lucario in terms of the 4 card limit, it should be consistent to allow for leveling up a LV.X.