Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

eclipse said:
I owe all of you plenty of explanation, which I'll get to in the postgame thread.

SMP88 - Look at the wolf kills. We aimed for active people early/midgame, to kill day discussion. Prohawk sped it up considerably.

The roles were interesting, to say the least. I haven't played with most of them until now.
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Of course you did. Kabooming the active players was completely the right move there. My problem is with the role itself. It never should have been in the game in the first place.

In a game this big you have to expect that not everyone is going to join in the discussion all the time. By including a 5 person NK, you're giving the wolves the ability to kill any day discussions that were going on. While it's fantastic for the wolves, it's terrible for moving the game along, as we saw here.
 
eclipse said:
I trust this guy more than you. According to that post, this is a place to discuss things like game mechanics, balance, etc. If you have a specific problem with the way the game was run, take it up to the hosts/forum mods via PM or a Quicktopic. Complaining about it here is doing favors for no one.
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That was not an all inclusive list. Discussion of how the game was run IS valid here. This is the postgame thread. Continue normal broadcast.


Especially when such errors or problems can be corrected. That way future moderators who read this thread will be able to deftly sidestep errors of their own and plan ahead for scenarios they had never envisioned.
 
Pikamaster said:
Look at the wolf/player ratio. The wolves had a harder time, this was part of their balance.
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My point is not that it gave wolves too much of an advantage, my point is that it effectively erased one of the msot important phases of a werewolf game from existence. LYLO/MYLO is one of the most skill-intensive times in every game of mafia/werewolf, and by giving the wolves a way to completely side-step it, much skill is gone.
 
Pikamaster said:
That will come for tomorrow, then, I need to get to sleep now.

Dave/SMP/SS7, the balance was that it lost the wolves one of their own and it stopped the kill for the next two nights. Essentially, it gave them +1 on the town. The conversation was killed because the remaining players failed to be more active in talking.

Also, EVERYONE, this is a civil discussion. Do NOT break the Pokegym rules. DP, I am looking at you. Every other person, too, but yeah, no more insulting Cabd.
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Did you really expect everyone to be completely active? I mean, come on, you had 13 modkills, most of them being for inactivity. Games this big don't work exactly for this reason.
 
Was the role a mistake? Probably. However, it was not use to erase mylo/lylo, your point there is invalid

Smp, no, I didn't. Yes, it had a big impact, LEX and I did not expect this amount of inactivity
 
I didn't care much for balance either. I would rather have had either more wolves, or a smaller game than a big boom power like that. While we certainly used it to our advantage, I don't think it was fair. Though, if we had not have had it, we certainly would have lost. Overall, wasn't a fan of the wolf boom, even though I had fun abusing its power.
 
Regarding game size, it is evident that a "range of stability" exists for werewolf games in general. Usually that range is between 20 and 30. Games should ideally have one replacement available for every four players alive.
 
As an aside, my role never worked. I didn't get SMP's role, and I certainly didn't know DP was a wolf. At that point, nothing else was going to get a lynch though.

The wolves played very well, and the townies not so much. Out of curiosity, why didn't the wolves win? I always thought they had to outnumber the town, and there was no town at the end...
 
The wolves did win....


Also in terms of role mechanics.

My role was the most ANTI-fun role ever created.

Roleblock. Post-block the day after. Then Wolf NK the Night after that.


In fact, the sheer number of Post-blocking roles probably helped kill discussion as much as the inactives did. I make it a point to never use post-blocking mechanics because they destroy one half of the entire game, the Day (skill) Cycle.
 
Cabd, I do realize the game size was too big, but that can't be fixed mid-way through.

Smp, you cannot account for every scenario. Last game around this size, AT's, did not have an inactivity problem.
 
I agree it cannot be fixed mid-game. However, I feel it important to note for the future. FWIW, 6P has found 20 to be the perfect number. (And we had a lot of good with 20 on the gym as well in the A/B/C games)


20 players with a 7 irl day / 2 irl day day/night cycle keeps games moving at a fairly quick pace, and means players out of the game are able to enjoy being able to get into the next one fairly quickly.
 
Anyways, this was my first WW game on Pokegym, and though it seemed unbalanced at times, there were a lot of interesting roles. Specifically, nice job on the lore Pikamaster/Lucario EX.
 
Oh, one other role i'd like to bring up that should never be in a agme again from now on, is any role that brings back the dead, or allows one to speak with a dead player. That's a REALLY bad idea, as you cannot be sure that they did not somehow gain outside info or talk to a friend about their roles.


It also inhibits the formation of a dead thread, which is one of the things that allows players removed from the game to stay involved and interested in the game community.

---------- Post added 05/01/2013 at 08:44 PM ----------

A possible solution I've been kicking around to the player base size vs game size issue is to run A and B games simultaneously, 16-20 players each, with players killed in game A being able to replace into B if needed and vice versa. This provides a clean 40 slots for players, while also keeping inactivity to a minimum. Think about it. At the start of the game, it was REALLY hard to keep track of 44 other players and their posts. But 19 other players is manageable.
 
cabd said:
I agree it cannot be fixed mid-game. However, I feel it important to note for the future. FWIW, 6P has found 20 to be the perfect number. (And we had a lot of good with 20 on the gym as well in the A/B/C games)


20 players with a 7 irl day / 2 irl day day/night cycle keeps games moving at a fairly quick pace, and means players out of the game are able to enjoy being able to get into the next one fairly quickly.
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I had 37 in the first HT Mafia, and 30 in the second. I was pretty happy with 30 players - adds room for a lot of interesting roles, alternate factions, etc...

My "The Gentlemen" role in the first HT game was great for the flow of the game (was able to kill a player at night that didn't post during the previous game day). There will always be inactives.
 
vegitalian said:
I had 37 in the first HT Mafia, and 30 in the second. I was pretty happy with 30 players - adds room for a lot of interesting roles, alternate factions, etc...

My "The Gentlemen" role in the first HT game was great for the flow of the game (was able to kill a player at night that didn't post during the previous game day). There will always be inactives.
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Ht is a totally different beast, though, as players there are... more able to speak freely. I've not personally looked over your games in detail, but I will say that any game wanting more than 30 players would have to give me a uni thesis paper of balance justification before I'd even consider approving it.
 
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