Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

2 of 3 games - how it is judged

M

meganium45

Active Member
This is to set forth how I am doing 2 out of 3 matches for my events.

We do one game matches for the swiss rounds, but for all elimination rounds, those are done 2 out of 3 matches.

That worked will in Missouri, I feel it will work well in Kentucky, and it will also be done this way at the Gym Challenges in St. Louis, Memphis and the Stadium Challenge in Arlington, Texas. (Those are events that I am running)

For the 2 of 3 we will be using a 1 hour time limit. That seemed to be fine in St. Louis. Only one match pushed the time envelope of all the divisions, so I consider that a good indicator.

The rule is: If less than one match is completed when time is called, then the winner of that match wins the game. If the match is a draw, then the next player to take a prize, or who would otherwise win, wins.

If less than two matches are completed, then the winner of the completed match wins the round. I do not care how many prizes were taken in the second game, only completed games count.

If 2 games have been completed, and one player has won both, then that is easy.

If 2 games have been completed and the third game has not yet started, the third game will be instructed to be started with a 10 minute time limit. If there is no leader after 10 minutes, then the game is played as sudden death - next player to take a prize or who would otherwise win, wins.

If 2 games have been completed, and the third game is a draw and less than 3 turns old, 5 minute extension.

If 2 games have been completed and the third game is a draw and 3 or more turns (both players competed 3rd turn), then sudden death.

If 2 games have been completed and there is a leader in the third game, no matter the turns elapsed, the leading player is the winner.

If we can all agree to adopt something similar, or make changes to the above, it will go along way to making this game uniform for all participants, especially at the higher level events.

Meganium45
 
I understand why you are doing this as a match play instead of a normal 1 battle round, but considering that this type of format will add on an average of an hour (at least that much over the course of the 3 rounds to complete the top 8), chances are that some parents may not appreciate your reasoning. I know some from my neck of the woods that wouldn't. Hope it works out well for you. If everyone wants this to be a format, and Nintendo approves, then so be it, but I think you're heading into a dangerous area. Hope you don't mind me stating my opinion, but I'm sure many will say the same thing.
 
Match play is an effective play, but I think it's less effective for constructed Pokémon games since they tend to take a while for a single game. I can see the idea, but it might push it with some people. However, the tournaments in my area tend to use match play too.
 
We've been trying some sort of similar, just with 4 prizes, on that format, the fire decks seem to be a bit weaker, since slaking/boost energy work better, and pretty fast, though I know most players will not like to cjange to a 4 prize system. though that would help with the time problem, well just a thought anyway.
 
This is ONLY done at Championship level events. State tourneys, Gym Challenges and Stadium Challenges.

This does NOT effect the more "minor" events such as weekly tourneys, City Championships and preReleases.

It is frustrating to believe that your one bad hand pull of the day may cost you a trip. 2 in a row may, but one will not end your quest.

I just think with a trip on the line, a one game match is very flippant, and gives into far too much luck, as opposed to skill, deckbuilding and gameplay.

Meganium45

Yes, it was ironic, at the Missouri State event, that ALL of the side events were over by the time the 15+ top 8 was completed. Made for a few unhappy folks in the top 8, but I was not going to have everyone sit idly by while they fininished. That is the joy of a Stadium challenge - WAVES of side events after the main event, so even the main event top 2 can participate **cough**ROCHESTER DRAFT**cough**
 
Yah, I assume we're talking about single-elim (or playoff) games here.

1. I don't like the idea about ignoring an incomplete 2nd game. If time is called during the 2nd game, I'd treat it like the POP Floor Rules state (count prizes to determine a winner or draw). If the 2nd game is a draw, then the winner is whoever won game 1. Otherwise, you must go to a third game (match extension). You do this for an incomplete 3rd game (count prizes), so I see no reason to be different in the 2nd game. It's just not fair to treat one game differently than another in match play. ALL games must be equally important, and game winners must be consistantly determined.

2. 3rd game time extensions should also be consistant, regardless of how many turns have passed. When time is called in the 3rd game, count prizes to determine the winner. If it's still a draw, go into sudden death, or give a 5-minute or 5-turn extension (like they do in Magic). Even a 3rd game that hasn't started should use the same thing as a 3rd game-in-progress (sudden death, time extension, OR turn extension).

The trick is to be consistant. The ONLY difference between a 1st/2nd game and a 3rd game that I can see of is the sudden-death or extension, because obviously you NEED a winner.

Oh yah, if you actually get someone who didn't complete the first game, treat it like the 3rd game.
 
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Giday

I've been running 3 game Matches for my Semi (top 4) & Finals only for over 2 years at all of my big events. I don't do top 8 for reasons mentioned above (time).

I've been running them as 1 hour time limits, NO extensions unless a ruling or deck check was made. Of all the tournaments done like this, i've only had 1 go the full time (still in 1st game, Slow Steel Vs Slow Steel).

The 5 turns like in Magic, can drag the game out alot longer than you want as a TO. If ANY of the games are still going, i use the Prizes rule. If this results in a drawn match, then they play a Sudden Death game as per the Expert Pokemon Rules.

Using the Sudden Death rules as per every rule book that comes out with each series, will give you the results you require. Players should be aware of these as thier part of knowing the rules of how to play. Judges MUST know them in my view.

Sudden Death = "Play a new game, but have each player use only 1 prize instead of the usual 6. Except for the number of prizes, treat the Sudden Death game like a whole new game: Set everything up again, including flipping a coin to see who goes first. The winner of this game is the overall winner. It may happen that a Sudden Death game ends in Sudden Death; if that happens just keep playing Sudden Death until somebody wins"

This in my view, although tough in rare cases, solves ALL incomplete matches after time runs out.
 
Oops, missed out a whole sentence ...

The 5 turns like in Magic, can drag the game out alot longer than you want as a TO. If ANY of the games are still going, i use the Prizes rule. If prizes are tied, play the next prizes wins. If this results in a drawn match, then they play a Sudden Death game as per the Expert Pokemon Rules.
 
There is NO way I would ever agree to have a partial 2nd game count.

One player wins game one, cleanly, then is down 5 prizes to 6 when time is called and it is even on games?

Then what do you do, play sudden death? So a player can take 2 prizes and defeat a player who took 6 in the only full game? That is worse than playing one game elimination in my mind.

Complete games have to count more, or why do 2 out of 3? makes no sense, and I can imagine a lot of people at 1 game each with a partial 2nd game counted. Then you have to go to a third, which is even longer...

This drags it out enough. benefits a player who wins a "full" game, as opposed to a player who is just up. Let's face it, if they haven't finished 2 games in 1 hour, do you really want to start a 3rd?

Until convinced otherwise, that is how I am running my events.

I would like to hear other feedback.

Vince
 
No matter which way you go about things,you will always run into dilemmas and problems.By doing two out of three,you add too much more time to a day already long drawn out.If you have 3 separate age groups doing this,it just adds to more parents waiting around impatiently(especially of the younger kids).Bottom line,time means everything. If you choose to do side events that last longer,then that`s the people who choose to stay.I`ve seen too many parents want to get home/on the road as soon as possible and by adding the extra 1 1/2 to 2 hours to an event,it just keeps some away.

Now,I have played and judged where you had best of three.Luck plays a part of it just as single matches do.True,you have another chance if you lose by a bad hand, but luck is part of the game.If you lose by a bad draw in swiss and lose a trip,then thems the breaks.It can happen to anyone and in any way you play it.Someone will win and someone will lose.

Although I commend you for wanting and striving to do the best for your players, two out of three is not feasible and I won`t,unless mandated by PUI,run two out of three matches.

`Sensei
 
Meganium45, I can't understand why you think an incomplete 2nd game is so unimportant, yet you go to GREAT LENGTHS to make sure you get an incomplete 3rd game when time is called. So with Sudden Death, or time/turn extension, you now have an INCOMPLETE match. So, do you only give 2 points to incomplete 1-game matches in the swiss rounds? Not unless you're using DCI Reporter (or doing everything on paper).

Meganium45, you're starting to sound like a "rogue" judge, one of those people who don't like the current rules so you bend the rules to fit what you think is right. Sure, WOTC/DCI ignored imcomplete games at the last Worlds. But THEY legislate the rules. It was within their authority. The POP Floor Rules are very clear on how to handle incomplete games (count prizes). Any deviation, IMO, is "rogue."

I really hope that either you get this approved from POP, OR conform to the Floor Rules, especially if you'll be holding the South Stadium.
 
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one last suggestion M45...

I recommend that you have untimed playoffs if you're so concerned about incomplete games. That's really the only FAIR way to do it if you think incomplete games/matches are so bad.
 
Steve, I tried that at my $200.00 tourney, but with 2 really even players, good players, it could last, say, how long was that Colin and Pat? 3 hours for one match. Unacceptable.

Unless I hear a compelling reason, the style will stay as such. 2nd partial games just cause far too many problems, and create a great unfairness potential.

You hate 1 game matches, how about sudden death when your deck is not designed for that, but for the long haul?

Nope, keep tossing arguments at me, and I will keep listening, but if ANYONE can explain to me how a partial game should equal a complete game, please do so.

M45
 
Sensei, I agree with you as far as parents are concerned, but on all my "Premiere Events" we are running free side events, so people are expecting to stay after the main event. This gives the top x of each division time to play while all the other players are still busy with other events.

The free side events really help, and without them, I would have had the situation you described.

Hope to see you at Origins...

M45
 
I won't argue the value of a partial game, if you won't agrue the value of a partial match. So, where does that leave us? Can we disregard one (incomplete game), then accept the other (incomplete match)?

Listen, I'm not trying to convince you that partial games should have the same value as full games. In fact, I'd say that some partial 30-minute games might have more value that some 2-minute full games, in some peoples' eyes.

Regarding sudden death, I've never used it. I've done both 5-minute extensions and 5-turn extensions. IMO, extensions are the way to go, except for a game-in-progress that MUST have a winner, in which case I prefer sudden death when the prize count is even (next prize drawn wins).

I suppose an untimed match is a bit unreasonable. I was just being a bit sarcastic in my suggestion.
 
Multiple-game matches
Tournaments that include multiple-game matches check games won by each player. If both players have the same number of game wins for that round, the match is a draw.
Click to expand...

There is nothing in there requiring you to count prizes if a game is not finished.
You can't refer to this

Time Expiration
If time for the match has been called, the current player is allowed to finish their turn. At the end of that turn, the player with the least amount of Prize cards left is considered the winner. If both players have an equal number of Prize cards, the game is a draw.
Click to expand...

Because that's base on a 1 game match.

The whole floorrules set up is for one game match and not really clear for best of 3.
For myself I prefer best of 3, but we rule it this way at the moment.

Only completed games count, with one exception and that is if players are still in their first game.
Then prices are counted after time is called and players on turn ends that turn.
If they have same amount of prices it's a DRAW.
And only at the end of the tournament if it's needed to provide an winner and the points gathered are equal than we let them play sudden death, to get the winner.
(Depending if in case p.e. the 2 top finishers played each other already and have the same point, than the one who won the match they already played is placed nr 1).

This is also not a complete fair situation, because why let the first match (uncompleted) count on prize counting and the 2nd and 3th not.

I feel more for a construction that for all uncompleted games you should count prizes.
If it's a draw that it is a draw (even TMS can handle draws).
No extra time for matches.
We are doing 45 minutes a match, but I will discuss 1 hour because that fits better.
Only after the last match of the day if needed sudden death, to determe the overall winner.

Even for larger events you should always be aware that time limits are important.
For younger players, but also for parents waiting and watching.

And finally if we are really talking about fair.
than each match (best of 3) should have 1,5 hour playingtime (who wants that) because if 1 game matched can have 30 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I guess I don't understand why not have the matches still timed at 30 minutes. Why have only 1 hour for 3 matches? It doesn't take much to keep track of what time 4 games started.

By the way, for any players reading this, 2 of 3 is how your single elim finals at the State Championships were suppose to be played. I know of at least 2 that were not done this way.
 
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farbsman said:
By the way, for any players reading this, 2 of 3 is how your single elim finals at the State Championships were suppose to be played. I know of at least 2 that were not done this way.
Click to expand...

And this is stated where? All I've seen is a cut to single elimination finals, not manditory three game match play.
-Phil
 
Oh, trust me, we did rolling start times, as brackets were completed to let the next players play. That worked very well, in that I only had one 2/3 that came close to one hour.

I was just hoping to open up a discussion to try and create uniformity.

The partial second game not counting is specifically there to avoid a "draw" situation in an elimination round. There can be no doubt that a completed game will always hold more favor with all players, than a game played all of the way through to completion.

The key was, I let ALL competitors of the elimination rounds know the parameters before we started the first elimiation round. They knew the rules, and what was expected of them, and that eased any confusion.

Like I said, it did not come into play, but I wanted to try to take a stab at making the rules uniform across the board, at all Stadium Challenges, Gym Challenges, Nationals and hopefully worlds. These are the events where MAJOR prizes are at stake. States is a great opportunity to work these bugs out before we give away TRIP prizes in May!

Talk to you soon.

Meganium45
 
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