2011 Rotation

[bullados]

It will still be prominent, but it won't be "OMGFIRSTTURNKILLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" any more. The number of true FTK decks will decrease significantly with both Uxie and Sableye out of the format. SP decks will still be utilized because they're generally fast, powerful, and consistent, and you can TecH them quite easily. But I don't think they'll remain as the "deck to beat". The format will transition slower, even if the entire SP engine is still around (I still hate Cyrus BTW), and slower evolution style decks will have at least a chance to deal with SPs before they really hit. Turn 2-3, rather than Turn 1.

 

[Karate_Guy]

If it's PT-on, I doubt that SP will be as prominent as it is now. It will still be very good, but it will lose Uxie and Call, two of it's most important cards.

the thing is that everybody will be losing uxie and call meaning everybody will be losing something equally

 

[skovtrold]

If it's PT-on, I doubt that SP will be as prominent as it is now. It will still be very good, but it will lose Uxie and Call, two of it's most important cards.

I beg to differ. my sp decks run off a staraptor engine. I usually dont need uxie, and call is only used t1 if i can get one, and even then, it aint that crucial. Some will miss Uxie and call, but sp players will adapt. therefor, it wont be PT on. It will be RR on.

 

[nnaann]

If it's PT-on, I doubt that SP will be as prominent as it is now. It will still be very good, but it will lose Uxie and Call, two of it's most important cards.

I disagree. SP decks will become slower, but all decks rely on Uxie and Call Energy. It will just make SP decks more powerful since they need less draw power to work, and have options like Staraptor FB Lv X.

 

[cmak37]

Where in my post did I say anything about SP decks no longer being good? I simply said that they'd be less prominent. I believe without a doubt that they'd still dominate if it was PT-on. I just think they would be a little less dominant without Uxie and Call.

 

[Kayle]

I disagree. SP decks will become slower, but all decks rely on Uxie and Call Energy. It will just make SP decks more powerful since they need less draw power to work, and have options like Staraptor FB Lv X.

I wrote a huge article about this a while back...

Let me summarize. SP needs Uxie to get Cyrus reliably. Without Cyrus, they don't work. You have a hard time reliably getting Staraptor, even, and Staraptor is a huge weakness (think Luxchomp mirror... it would almost be a waste of time). But the fact that the best draw supporters out there, other than Cyrus, all force you to shuffle your hand away, means that if SP wants a decent option other than Uxie to help make sure it gets Cyrus... is going to be some shuffle Supporter, so far. (The only other option is Oak, which is even worse.)

It's one thing to PONT at the end of a Cyrus chain, but it's another to have to PONT to get what you want in the first place. It's a setback that limits their resources early in the game, while other decks don't rely on Energy Gain, Poke-Turn, and Power Spray - they rely on what they get into the field, and then shuffling away what they can't use is perfectly viable.

I did say SP would die out then. I'm not so sure any more, but they'll definitely slow down, and classic evolution decks will be much more able to keep up than they are now.


I give stock to RR-on because nothing stops Pokemon Powers past PT. Once Black and White comes out... how are we going to rule Power Spray vs. "Abilities"?

Edit: Oops, Grumpig stops Pokemon Powers lol.

 

[eriknance]

If it's PT-on, I doubt that SP will be as prominent as it is now. It will still be very good, but it will lose Uxie and Call, two of it's most important cards.

I got runner-up at Nationals with Luxchomp and I didn't play Call Energy. I think SP decks can still manage without Call. Uxie is a loss, but when you factor in the new Professor Oak supporter, I can still see SP decks working. Besides, don't ALL decks right now use Uxie? In a PT-on format, all decks would be slowed down equally, meaning that SP would still be a dominating force because of its speed.

It will still be prominent, but it won't be "OMGFIRSTTURNKILLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" any more. The number of true FTK decks will decrease significantly with both Uxie and Sableye out of the format. SP decks will still be utilized because they're generally fast, powerful, and consistent, and you can TecH them quite easily. But I don't think they'll remain as the "deck to beat". The format will transition slower, even if the entire SP engine is still around (I still hate Cyrus BTW), and slower evolution style decks will have at least a chance to deal with SPs before they really hit. Turn 2-3, rather than Turn 1.

Because starting with a Garchomp/DCE/Energy Gain (and being able to play it all with the new rules) against your opponent's lone whatever isn't "really hitting" on turn 1? Then, when the opponent plays a bench but can't Rare Candy into anything cause of the new rules, being able to Dragon Rush whatever you'd like isn't "really hitting" on turn 2?

I know that Uxie is the oil in the SP engine that helps everything run much more smoothly, but you can't tell me that SP won't have an advantage over an entire series of evolution decks that seem greatly slowed down. Rare Candy will be changed, GoW will be reprinted (meaning BlazeChomp might end up being the better play), and SP will still have the unbelievable advantage of teching against everything the format can throw at it. Zekrom popular? A single Promocroak will take care of that (and I'll Power Spray those CL Pachirisu thank you very much). Emboar popular? How about the SP Empoleon?

I mean, this is all a discussion we've had before: SP vs. evolution decks. There's a reason that SF Machamp with Uxie still has a problem against SP's speed and disruption. So why do you think PT-on would be any different? Just because SP doesn't land a first-turn win (which, with the new rules, it would be even more able to do) doesn't mean it has no advantage over evolution decks. Why do you think that evolution decks without Uxie would be able to perform better against SP all of a sudden?

Additionally, if B&W sets ever comes out with a setup Pokemon (like Claydol, Pidgeot, Magcargo, Uxie, etc.), it'll just provide a new target for SP decks. There's almost no way that a setup Pokemon could avoid getting KO'd by SP, especially with Pokemon Catcher in the format. The only way it worked in DP-on was when decks ran 4 BTS/4-4 Claydol/2 Uxie... which to me was just more speed in the format. Otherwise, many decks ditched Claydol altogether and relied on a couple of Uxie drops.

No, I believe that if we continue with a PT-on format we'll inevitably continue with a format dominated by SP. It's been said that until SP rotates away, it will dominate the format. What would be even worse, however, is the fact that Japan would have no reason to produce cards that took away SP's dominant position in the format. People have complained about how lackluster HGSS-on sets have been, right? Well, it would the same for almost every B&W set as well if PT-on were the case. "Whoa cool, they reprinted FRLG Pidgeot!" "Yeah, but so what? I'll just play Luxray GL again."

 

[Scubadude]

Xicious: They usually announce between Regionals and US Nationals.

Jand: Do not go posting rumors as fact. Everybody was certain we'd get PT-on last year. I was one of maybe two players posting on these boards that correctly predicted MD-on. I'm predicting PT-on for next year to make things easier on organizers. I doubt they'll go straight to HS-on.

You think platinum will stay or go?

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Hey guys. Do you think that since there was no Bebe's Search reprint in COL, it could mean a RR-on format? It makes sense, don't you think?

So you're also saying that, since there was no Garchomp reprint, it's SV on? and since there's no Collector reprint, it's HGSS on? And since theres no Call Energy reprint, it's MD on? Terrible logic.

 

[eriknance]

Another thing I'd like to stress concerning the idea of anything other than an HGSS-on format for next season...

When it comes to creating cards for a given format, it appears that Japan doesn't really consider anything other than their own format. Given this, anything other than an HGSS-on format next year may cause unintentional havoc to our own format. I can point at a season that was absolutely ruined because of this discrepancy. The '07-'08 season saw GG rise to dominance outside of Japan, which at least had access to a few cards that could be used to counter GG. Eventually, GG became too powerful, leading to cards like LA Kingdra and the AMU combo to be released.

Consider, for instance, the SV Magmortar. Paired with Leafon, it's pretty terrible right now. But in a RR-on format (where I think SP WOULD be severely disabled), it could very well dominate. And to Japan, it wouldn't matter at all. Yes, there's Roserade UL, but Magmortar is a much better play in terms of speed. There are lots of other cards that need mention (AR Spiritomb, Palkia G X, etc.), cards that are simply not meant to be paired with the B&W cards.

As much as I'd like a chance to see certain cards work from sets that have been almost entirely ignored, I'd much rather we be in line with Japan's format. It helps minimize the risk that we end up with a broken game.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Another thing I'd like to stress concerning the idea of anything other than an HGSS-on format for next season...

When it comes to creating cards for a given format, it appears that Japan doesn't really consider anything other than their own format. Given this, anything other than an HGSS-on format next year may cause unintentional havoc to our own format. I can point at a season that was absolutely ruined because of this discrepancy. The '07-'08 season saw GG rise to dominance outside of Japan, which at least had access to a few cards that could be used to counter GG. Eventually, GG became too powerful, leading to cards like LA Kingdra and the AMU combo to be released.

Consider, for instance, the SV Magmortar. Paired with Leafon, it's pretty terrible right now. But in a RR-on format (where I think SP WOULD be severely disabled), it could very well dominate. And to Japan, it wouldn't matter at all. Yes, there's Roserade UL, but Magmortar is a much better play in terms of speed. There are lots of other cards that need mention (AR Spiritomb, Palkia G X, etc.), cards that are simply not meant to be paired with the B&W cards.

As much as I'd like a chance to see certain cards work from sets that have been almost entirely ignored, I'd much rather we be in line with Japan's format. It helps minimize the risk that we end up with a broken game.

This is why I would like a block rotation. Prolly won't happen though :/

 

[Pittsburgh Steelers]

In my opinion, it's probably Platinum on. Without that set, what would be the point of using SP Pokemon from the next sets then? Poke-Turns, Power-Sprays, and everything else will be vanished. Possibility but I just don't see it making any sense.

 

[Scubadude]

In my opinion, it's probably Platinum on. Without that set, what would be the point of using SP Pokemon from the next sets then? Poke-Turns, Power-Sprays, and everything else will be vanished. Possibility but I just don't see it making any sense.

I think thats kinda of the point those cards enable too much OP things along with cyrus the SP engine is too good. Especially when we lose things like SF machamp and fainting spell gengar. If its RR on we still have garchop and luxray but their tools that make them OP will be gone.

 

[edwarpy]

Haha, nice. Well, we've seen them pull this stunt quite a few times. I remember when Great Encounters was released, they held off on printing Phione, Call Energy, and Bronzong (among others), all of which could have been used to help decks set up better against GG. Notably, the Bronzong/Empoleon deck ended up being a nice counter to GG. Lost World was held off until Call of Legends. And can anyone tell me whether or not Medicham ex/Battle Frontier was held off to be released in Emerald?

As a competitive player, it looks like they're dead on when it comes to holding off on the release of cards that would actually change the game. I don't know why they do this.

Set convolutions sure are frustrating.

 

[hueglin]

Besides, don't ALL decks right now use Uxie? In a PT-on format, all decks would be slowed down equally, meaning that SP would still be a dominating force because of its speed.

I think the difference is that SP often runs fewer of any one type of card, especially Pokemon. For example you would have a 2-2 Luxray line. In a Stage 1 deck you would run a 4-4 line, in a Stage 2 decks you would run 4-2-4, 4-3-4 or 4-4-4 of your main attacker, plus 4 Rare Candies. So, as someone else mentioned, the chances of getting what you need with PONT or other random draw card is higher with evolution decks than with SPs.

I am not saying SP will not still be strong without Uxie, but I think its loss will be felt more by SP than evolution desks. One card which might see more use then is Volkner's Philosophy, which does not require you to shuffle in your hand

 

[eriknance]

I think the difference is that SP often runs fewer of any one type of card, especially Pokemon. For example you would have a 2-2 Luxray line. In a Stage 1 deck you would run a 4-4 line, in a Stage 2 decks you would run 4-2-4, 4-3-4 or 4-4-4 of your main attacker, plus 4 Rare Candies. So, as someone else mentioned, the chances of getting what you need with PONT or other random draw card is higher with evolution decks than with SPs.

I am not saying SP will not still be strong without Uxie, but I think its loss will be felt more by SP than evolution desks. One card which might see more use then is Volkner's Philosophy, which does not require you to shuffle in your hand

That could very well be, though I think running 4 SP Radar (plus Junk Arm and others) may help. I think I might do some testing with a PT-on format today if I get the chance just to see how it plays out. I guess I need to throw in B&W as well. Hmm..

And yeah, thanks for the Volkner's idea.

Edit: Can anyone post some B&W lists you may want tested? Like Speed Zekrom, or Emboar/whatever? I might get the chance to mess around with that in my testing too (my wife's sick today, so I'm kinda hanging around not doing much). Thanks!

Second Edit: I also meant to ask... what in the world do you guys think will be popular that can handle SP decks?! Machamp, Gyarados, and Gengar from SF would all be gone, so what is out there that would do well against SP decks? I'll still test just to show that SP without Uxie can still work, but what to test against?

---------- Post added 02/13/2011 at 02:57 PM ----------

Alright, I've done some brief testing between a Luxchomp deck and a speed Donphan deck, both using only cards in a PT-on format. Here's what I've noticed:

• Without Uxie, many Stage 2 PT-on decks can't function properly against SP. They're absolutely crippled. I started to put together a few deck ideas that I liked, but without Uxie I didn't even have to test them to know that they'd be absolutely horrible. For the people out there reading this who disagree, please show me a deck list that looks consistent and I'll give it a go. Otherwise, a PT-on format looks like it would dwindle down to Basic and Stage 1 decks at best.
  
• The B&W speed decks mentioned here on the forum just don't look like they'd really be that effective against SP. Speed Zekrom or Thunderos (?) get destroyed by Promocroak. The only viable option seems to be Emboar/Reshiram, but that seems inconsistent. Still, given that deck and the other speed deck that seems decent (Donphan), I teched in an Empoleon FB to help sway the matchup. Against Donphan at least, it did.
  
• Without Uxie's "Set Up," Power Spray is not needed nearly as much. I suppose it may be helpful in the Luxchomp mirror, but against almost everything else PT-on, it just clutters up the deck. After a couple of practice games, I ditched the Power Sprays in favor of consistency cards like PokeGear 3.0 and VS Seeker.
  
• Luxchomp does lose some speed with the absence of Uxie, but here's the kicker. With everything else in the format slowed down, Luxchomp isn't concerned nearly as much with teching against all its bad matchups (since, well, there are none). There aren't any Machamp decks floating around, no Gyarados to worry about, and no VileGar locking up Trainers and hitting for a billion. And without those troublesome matchups, Luxchomp gets to focus more on consistency. After getting Judged one time, I looked down and saw 3 bad cards and a Junk Arm. A Junk Arm which grabbed a VS Seeker which grabbed a Cyrus's Conspiracy and helped Luxchomp move on unharmed. If you think that Luxchomp will be moving slowly in a PT-on format, please please please think again.

All said, I'm very much afraid of an PT-on format. Without Gyarados, Machamp, and Gengar, and with the "stop" button being pressed on everything HGSS-on, I actually think SP would be even more dominant in a PT-on format. Of course, this goes against my earlier feelings about an MD-on format (something I was much opposed to), but I'm willing to admit that I was wrong. After actually testing a PT-format a little bit, I think I'll take back what I once said and instead acknowledge that P!P might have made a very good decision with keeping the format MD-on. Yes, the absence of Uxie hurts Luxchomp, but the absence of some its best counters (Machamp, Gengar, Gyarados) would hurt it even worse.

 

[uuuufff]

As much as I agree with the post above, I'm almost certain it's not going to be Platinum-On. There's no way they're only going to rotate 3 sets (which is abnormal in itself) AND ruin the format at the same type. I can see them going out of their way to save the format, not to ruin it.

 

[MudkipPrime]

how about salamance

 

[lucario aura wielder]

a bunch of ignored cards come from pl block ludicolo salamence shiftry

 

[MudkipPrime]

so is salamence a go or no.