Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

2of3 match play and the 10 and under age group

C

cattdreams

New Member
I know that most major events now are pushing for 2 out of 3 match play for the top 8 in each age division. as recomended by pui. With slightly larger prizes at stake this is an understandable move.

However, I think that with the 10 and under group, this may be producing more stress than is favorable for the age group. Simply put, I belive that it's too much for the majority of 10 and unders to effectivly cope with.

I also know that many parents are already aware of the potential stress that this can cause and believe it was a major reason for many of the 10 and unders avoiding entry into the LA (actually irvine) Gym Challenge.

Other Majorly accepted competitions geared twords younger groups all acknowledge this, and adjust their play accordingly, even at the highest levels (youth soccer, baseball, basketball, karate, the list goes on and on).

With that, I'd like to caution other judges on running 2 of 3 match play for their 10 and unders. I'd highly suggest avoiding it if possible.


-CattDreams
 
I highly disagree with your statement. As a parent, I would not want my child to have to experience a loss in a championship match due to 1 bad opening hand. If you have experienced your child losing on turn 2 after a day of playing I think you might feel differently. 2 of 3 gives them a some room to make mistakes too. I am a teacher and I know that kids can handle the stress. They are tough little buggers. But if I thought my child could not handle the stress of such competitions, I wouldn't allow her to play

I have seen comments on the professor forum about parents being upset that 2/3 makes the tournament too long. But that is not usually the case and again, as parents, I hope we want to give our kids as many chances to succeed as possible. These tournaments can be so important to them.
.
Have you asked your child which they prefer?
 
Another parent here.

My boy played in that and it seemed to be no worse than at bat with 2 outs in the last inning in a Little League™ game.

With so much at stake I think it works nice because luck is slightly removed. My boys oponent really didnt shuffle well and all his needed cards were in his prizes game one. A quick win for my son. But not because my son played better or had a better deck. This gave the boy a fair chance to prove himself with two games left.

Even if there is a single elim game there will be stress. Maybe more because its one and out.

My .02

Hope this doesnt turn into a poll :)
 
Poke_Dad, congratulations for this weekend. You didn't do well, but a certain Dragonite_girl secured her invite!

10 and under 2 of 3 is a necessary change. You want pressure? Try a one game match, where it all rides on your opening hand....

This is not a poll, but a reality. ALL the people who I have spoken with like 2/3 for the finals (except Sensei). Makes for a better, more meaningful event.

Talk with you soon.

M45
 
Agreeing with Poke Dad, annisarich and Meganium45.......(does this make it a POLL now, sorry)

i am going to put my 2 cents in as well. My son is 10 and has been playing for years now. We favor the 2 out of 3 for the final matches..... only if there is enuff players in that age group to cut to a top 4 or top 2.
My son played in Irvine this weekend and yes 7 rounds for the 10 and under was too long, with only 8 players i believe there should have been less rounds and no cut to top 4. We have been to a few gyms and they are handled differently at each place. I hope the "powers that be" put into place a format/structure that ALL TO's follow, right now that isnt happening.

just my 2 cents ....or is that 4 cents now with inflation and rising interest rates! (hehehe)
 
Lynch Mob's 4 cents.

We have 1 in the 10- he is actually going to be 9 soon. We couldn't support 2/3 any less than the other parents have stated. My son and many of the other's that we know and play against are not the least stressed at all. They are more stressed in a single lim game if they come out with a bad hand or instant weakness without a chance to even play. They all know what is at stake and want the best chance possible to play a fair match. With 2/3 they know there's atleast 1 more game to change things around and this is HOPE for them. When a player has hope their spirits are up and keeps their energy flowing.

In our situation, my son and his other 10- buddies burn off their stress and anxiety by running around crazy and playing together like the crazy 10- boys they are inbetween their matches. Let them be the 10- kids they are inbetween matches and you'll see they are ready and wanting to go and not a sign of stress.
We are very thankful that several of our events, allow or have the area for these little guys to do their 2nd favorite thing, to play like BOYS!!

Do note this is just the same for the older groups as well. We all burn off our stress by hanging out with our friends and going over matches or other pokemon issues. LOL
 
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spookees said:
We have been to a few gyms and they are handled differently at each place. I hope the "powers that be" put into place a format/structure that ALL TO's follow, right now that isnt happening.(hehehe)
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The PTO's are given a format, for some reason some decide to run it there own way. Directions were shipped with our supplies for the events.
 
farbsman said:
The PTO's are given a format, for some reason some decide to run it there own way. Directions were shipped with our supplies for the events.
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2/3 top twentyfive percent single elimination were suggested, not required. Just like the Penalty Guidelines.

However because everyone made a big stink about the structure of the single elimination at States (thanks Vince et al) we ran 2/3 with no time limits. That is the the only fair way to run 2/3 games right now. The players wanted 2/3 and they recieved 2/3, especially ther 15+ who played for a good four-five hour top eight single elimination. We got out of of our venue around 11:30pm.
-Phil
 
Perhaps I should redefine what I ment by stress, I more ment stress from fatigue. I should also specify that I didnt mean for them to switch to single game elimination, I more ment that they should stay in swiss play.
Everyone has posted valid points, but I still really think that it would have been much better for the 10 and unders to keep to single game swiss play. rather than going through a long day of swiss play then onto even longer rounds of 2 of 3 elimination play in finals.
there are also other things that come into play with a cut to effectivly a new tournament. for instance, we had one ten and under lead the swiss play with an excelent record all day long, keeping a firm lock on first. then switching to elimination play, he was knocked out in the first round, effectivly making his hard work for nothing. that to me is worse than just losing a single game to a bad hand.
(that kid also wound up running off in tears, where I had to go find him, then find his parents)

I guess what I'm really tring to get at, is the current structure unnessessarily long and fatiguing for the 10 and unders when it doesnt have to be? do we NEED the cut to the 2 of 3 or is it redundant after all the swiss rounds that they have to play anyways?

I really appreciate seeing everyones viewpoints, Please excuse me for not clarifying my point exactly how I ment in my first post. I look forward to reading everyones thoughts on my revised post (be they agree or disagree)
 
I really think that since the 10-Under attendance is lacking, there is no reason to follow through with single elimination finals. Georgia States, Florida States, and the West Palm Beach GC are the last three events I've judged at and all have had such a small showing of younger kids that we didnt need to do single elimination (although at the Gym Challenge it was required).
-Phil
 
WE had 19 10- in Memphis, a bigger group than any other!

This group came ready to play.

No time limit 2/3!!! WOW!!! Didn't anyone hear my story of a 3 hour match.....

Man, nice to be blamed for something worthwhile for once!!!

M45
 
cattdreams said:
Perhaps I should redefine what I ment by stress, I more ment stress from fatigue. I should also specify that I didnt mean for them to switch to single game elimination, I more ment that they should stay in swiss play.
Everyone has posted valid points, but I still really think that it would have been much better for the 10 and unders to keep to single game swiss play. rather than going through a long day of swiss play then onto even longer rounds of 2 of 3 elimination play in finals.
there are also other things that come into play with a cut to effectivly a new tournament. for instance, we had one ten and under lead the swiss play with an excelent record all day long, keeping a firm lock on first. then switching to elimination play, he was knocked out in the first round, effectivly making his hard work for nothing. that to me is worse than just losing a single game to a bad hand.
(that kid also wound up running off in tears, where I had to go find him, then find his parents)

I guess what I'm really tring to get at, is the current structure unnessessarily long and fatiguing for the 10 and unders when it doesnt have to be? do we NEED the cut to the 2 of 3 or is it redundant after all the swiss rounds that they have to play anyways?

I really appreciate seeing everyones viewpoints, Please excuse me for not clarifying my point exactly how I ment in my first post. I look forward to reading everyones thoughts on my revised post (be they agree or disagree)
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Why run one age group differently than another? Well since they are 10- let's do it this way, 11-14 we'll do this way and the 15+ well, they are basically adults and only need single lim or so on??

This is not structure. This is a game of strategy and hate to say it but luck as well. So a 10- player learns to play one way and then once they move up to another age bracket we'll it's different now buddy because your older.

Well then why not have different levels of maturity in the game. Ok, you've only been playing 4ms, well we shouldn't make you play a player whose been playing 4yrs. We all go to play these games to be the Pokemon master. There's always been a swiss and no reason to change it. I'm very glad to see Nintendo promoting to use 2/3, this has been very effective for Magic and lesson's the luck in the game.

My son is down there in the 10- and is just fine. There are days he will go undefeated and then loose in his 2/3 or days he'll go into top with a 4/1 record and take 1st. We need to keep the tourneys all structured and not cater to an age group or skill level. Regardless of anyones record there will always be that player who will leave in tears. I myself would have tears if I ended up 2nd and missed the trip. It's very emotional and that's a way of expressing just how you feel. My son teared up a bit in our last Gym Challenge because he ended up 3rd, with our assurance and encouragement that he played awesome and did great, there will be more tourneys and it's ok to be 3rd, he was right there watching along for the battle of 1 and 2nd. He had no hard feelings and wished them both luck and congratulated them both on their victories.

It's all in the Sportsmanship we teach these children!!
By the way my son is still battling for his Invite to Worlds. So I'm not saying all this because he's got his in the bag. I have no favortism just stating the facts and too keep structure. To us a tourney is just another day at league with bigger prizes at stake.
 
As a father to a 10- player, I think the 2/3 format is just fine in the cut down process. Many times, these games end early bc of bad starting hands, etc. The kids can handle it just fine. It's the parents who have a hard time w/ the stress of worrying/watching. just ask Poke-Dad sometime!! His daughter and my son played each other in the 2/3 format in the Nashville GC. My son won the 1st game quick, Taylor won the 2nd fast and the 3rd game was the best of them all. Talyor won that match and has shown her ability all over the State. My son was proud of the battle, not stressed over it. That's my .02 worth.
 
GLPhil said:
...we ran 2/3 with no time limits. That is the the only fair way to run 2/3 games right now.
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Like M45 said, untimed finals is undesireable. Here in Colorado, we did 60-minute semis and 90-minute finals.


Regarding best-of-3 for 10-under, in over 2 years of doing best-of-3 at almost EVERY tournament here in Colorado, I've NEVER gotten a complaint from a 10-under player or their parents. In fact, the only person who somewhat likes 1-game matches here in Colorado is an adult player. (I might add that this same player was our Gym champ who wouldn't have been the champ if we did 1-game matches--he lost the first game of the finals.)
 
mewsmom said:
Why run one age group differently than another? Well since they are 10- let's do it this way, 11-14 we'll do this way and the 15+ well, they are basically adults and only need single lim or so on??

This is not structure. This is a game of strategy and hate to say it but luck as well. So a 10- player learns to play one way and then once they move up to another age bracket we'll it's different now buddy because your older.
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Why? For the same reason we have T-ball vs. regular Baseball. The same reason why younger kids need more sleep.
It wasn't only the one child who ended up exhausted and upset. Even the 10 & U who won was upset because he felt terrible for beating the other kids. That is where exhaustion comes into play and where the parents won't return for another tournament. The kids did have a great time, but after awhile even the most rabid of players will fall apart after 10+ hours of play.
I don't really see what the solution is, but the problem is real.
---Nicole
WeileMom
 
(steps up on soap- box)


That sounds more like an organizational problem than a flaw in the actual tournament system. I agree that 10+ hours of tournament play is too long for many kids. Thats too long for most adults too. Something is definitley wrong in that department I will agree whole heartedly

But gain, have any parents actually asked their children how they would prefer play in the tournament? Most will tell you they want to play just the same as the olde kids/adults because they think they are just as capable.

My daughter came in 3rd in the city, state and Nashville GC tournaments and believe me there were tears every time. But she and I treated every one of those loses as a learning experience for her. She is 10 now, and besides the natural maturation that occurs over a 2 year period in that age, I have seen her go from a hot tempered sore loser to a calculating, thoughtful tournament player. More than one time was she taken out of a Saturday's OP and made to sit out one or 2 weeks as punishment.

She put it all together in this weeks Gym Challenge. She admitted to me that she never really actually believed she could win because she had never beaten the top two from the past. This week she shined.

I think if the kids know in advance how the tournament is being run and that winning every game in Swiss is NOT a guarantee of victory, they will accept it for how things are gonna be and do their best.

(step down from soap box)

--Clay M--

Poke_Dad
 
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Poke_Dad I think if the kids know in advance how the tournament is being run and that winning every game in Swiss is NOT a guarantee of victory said:
Congratulations to your daughter!! My 11-14 is feeling the same way right now. She's not sure if she'll ever beat the kids who keep beating her.

The thing is...the tournament ran smoothly. There were no glitches to speak of. We had a lot of players and a lot of rounds to get through. If the 10 & U age group had been bigger we could have run it as 3 separate tournaments but we didn't have enough.
Second, the issue wasn't that the kids were upset about losing. As I said, even the winner was excited but upset at the same time.
They were just plain worn out.
---Nicole
WeileMom
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Like Poke Dad said, 10 hours is probably too long for child 10-under. I know the child labor laws for Hollywood often are a deterant for some film makers and TV show producers from using children.

This topic has made me think about how 10-under should probably be run at the Stadiums, Nationals, and Worlds. By separating the age groups, and with the 10-under typically being a smaller group size, we might be able to give the 10-under kids larger breaks between rounds.

cattdreams has a VERY LEGIMATE concern, but like PokeDad stated, it's more about the length of the tournament day rather than best-of-3.

BTW, the 10-under kids almost ALWAYS finished their matches before the older players at our Colorado Gym. It's the 15+ players that appeared to be the MOST stressed at our Gym.
 
after reviewing other peoples statements, I think that perhaps the flaw was infact in the idea that the la gym challenge ran way too long as opposed to the ones run in other areas ( such as stevep's and poke-dad).

so this brings up what what differantly, and how can this be avoided at other events?
we had 7 rounds of 30 min swiss play before the cuts. exactly how much did everyone else have? how many swiss rounds are needed if there's going to be 2 of 3 play so that at the very least the 10 and unders are not playing for an excess of time?

any input?

-CattDreams
 
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